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Hi,
i'm new here and i have wanted to post but it takes forever to be included in the system. at any rate - i have done some invocation/evocation (i'm new still haven't worked out the difference) and this was all done about a year - yr and a half ago. i called a variety of spirits from the goetia because my visualization skills are next to nothing (i was desperate for help at the time so didn't stop to consider these shortcomings in my work) but was surprisingly successful for one so new - maybe it was the smell of a newbie that drew such success at any rate i don't feel that i would want to continue with any workings with the goetia. i am disinclined to the use of the system because i feel that slavery whether it be a spirit or another human is wrong. At any rate, my goal at the time at the evocations was not to exert control but solicit aid. in my negotians however - i know that i was lacking - but by the same token i would not take the time to ask questions here if i did not feel that such questions were warranted. Forgive me if i seem to be rambling a bit - but you must understand the circumstances from which i am posting in order to be able to answer the questions that follow. i read on here that some of you more seasoned practitioners have not had any spirits manifest themselves through the smoke of the incense that you burned - i have. possibly for the simple reason that my visualization skills are lacking - but perhaps there are other reasons that i could only fathom to guess? any ideas as to why they would choose to show themselves to an inherent newbie such as myself would be very interesting to know. the second thing is that one of the spirits that i called also manifested by voice... now he has since made his presence known - in fact more recently - but i am curious as to why he would choose to make his presence known after so long - and especially assuming that he was disinclined to give me a straight answer when i made my request. another thing that is very puzzling to me is that last night another spirit that i had called upon (but had forgotten about until last night) chose to make his presence known and now i'm not sure of his intent. have any of you encountered something similar to this? i'm sure that most of you weren't as new to this when you first started as i was - nor does it seem that you would undertake an endeaver which you don't fully understand. mine was simply an act of desperation in a private matter which has yet to be resolved - yet seems like it could swing one way or the other as far as those called upon to help me. tho i have been told that if it's been a while (like a yr) they're answer was more likely to be negative. Anyone with further information regarding this - or even willing to wage a guess would be most appreciated.
thanks
Sera

I think that pretty well sums up your position and anyone else who views old rituals as "cookbooks": dancing around like chickens hoping something will happen. But if in your parroting you get results you're satisfied with then by no means listen to a damn thing I say. In fact, adopting an unparadigm can be disasterous to those who clutch to concrete ideas and the mythic "science" of the esoteric. It could render one completely impotent because that "cutting edge" you speak of is the synthesis of creativity and liberty. Scary stuff. It is much easier to rely on musty old texts than to go that route and once its explored and you find out you can't hack it you're up the creek.

For my part I approach occult history like a thief who grabs what is valuable and then gets out. Some like to take up residence but I've found this to be more like an unintended stay in a prison than a country estate.

If you enjoy what you do and it works for you please don't let me interfere! Don't believe a word I say, I beg you.

But then of course whatever you want to work works, you just have to believe in it. No need to dance around like a chicken, unless that's your thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Somehow I can't believe there are any heights that can't be scaled by a man who knows the secret of making dreams come true. This special secret, it seems to me, can be summarized in four C's. They are Curiosity, Confidence, Courage, and Constancy and the greatest of these is Confidence. When you believe a thing, believe it all the way, implicitly and unquestionably. -- Walt Disney

(I re-read what I said and couldn't find that ad hom you're talking about but I'd like you to point it out so I can apologize.)

Cheers.

-I think that pretty well sums up your position and anyone else who views old rituals as "cookbooks": dancing around like chickens hoping something will happen.

All magic requires some sort of odd behavior and a hope that such behavior might produce results. Whether it's circles and conjurations, visualized pentacles, sigils, or Voodoo Dolls, you have to do something out of the ordinary with the intent to accomplish the extraordinary. Aside from safety and legal issues, I try not to be too picky when it comes to the sort of odd behavior required of a spell. Save the analysis and dismissal of instructions for a time when you have results data upon which to base your conclusions.

-But if in your parroting you get results you're satisfied with then by no means listen to a damn thing I say. In fact, adopting an unparadigm can be disasterous to those who clutch to concrete ideas and the mythic "science" of the esoteric. It could render one completely impotent because that "cutting edge" you speak of is the synthesis of creativity and liberty. Scary stuff. It is much easier to rely on musty old texts than to go that route and once its explored and you find out you can't hack it you're up the creek.

The idea that "belief makes magic" is a cute theory and quite popular but is utterly useless in practice. No amount of belief makes something ineffective work, and no amount of doubting makes something effective fail to work.

It is not necessary to adopt a mystical belief system in order to use magical rituals and spells from that system. If the procedure is detailed, follow the instructions. They might tell you to say a particular prayer as part of the experimental procedure: whether you believe in the god invoked by the prayer is irrelevant.

Grimoires are an important part of traditional magic apart from folk-magic. It is unreasonable to dismiss them on account of their age or their theological foundations. You might not be interested in using them or even investigating them, but it is only by experiment that we can accurately judge their practical worth.

-For my part I approach occult history like a thief who grabs what is valuable and then gets out. Some like to take up residence but I've found this to be more like an unintended stay in a prison than a country estate.

How will you determine what is valuable if you have never put it to the test?

-(I re-read what I said and couldn't find that ad hom you're talking about but I'd like you to point it out so I can apologize.)

Zombies?

I would also like to hear precisely what you consider obsolete, and what advancements have occurred to make it so. What are the "traps" and why do you feel it is dangerous to get "caught" in them?
Why should a devout Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc... discard his or her traditional religious paradigm in order to work magic, when there is ample magical tradition available for them within their own sect?

Zombies?

I would also like to hear precisely what you consider obsolete, and what advancements have occurred to make it so. What are the "traps" and why do you feel it is dangerous to get "caught" in them?
Why should a devout Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc... discard his or her traditional religious paradigm in order to work magic, when there is ample magical tradition available for them within their own sect?

I specifically said they should not discard their paradigm, I said it would make them completely impotent. Believing in something like Islam or Buddhism only works if you believe. Whatever you've derived from your old magick books only works because you believe they work. That's great. But there's nothing inherent in the rituals that makes them effective. A system is completely dependant on the user and not the other way around.

Like I said, if you're genuinely happy and effective in your practice then its dangerous to even consider what I'm saying to you. The only reason I approached this young lady was to open her mind a bit before she starts chasing ghosts.

I do apologize for calling you a zombie, I meant it as those who are in a trance and obsessed with the "right way" of doing things when the only right way is the effective way. You can be much more effective shedding the Goetia or any other old book and making a tradition that speaks to you.

Again, apologies, good sir. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers!

This post has been edited by communaut: Jun 10 2007, 02:08 PM

-Believing in something like Islam or Buddhism only works if you believe.

Magic in itself is separate from most religions. I mean to say that the grimoires and other religious occult texts (Ghayat Al-Hakim, the Atharva-Veda, The Gathas, Enochian, etc..) use a religious background for developing magical ceremonies. The underlying beliefs tend to reflect obscure but valid elements of the background philosophy, but they aren't necessarily religious in any way. Buddhism may only "work" if you believe in it, but magical ceremonies based in Buddhism work or fail on their own merit.

-Whatever you've derived from your old magick books only works because you believe they work. That's great. But there's nothing inherent in the rituals that makes them effective. A system is completely dependant on the user and not the other way around.

I approach all magic with a dose of skepticism, especially when it involves supernatural creatures of any sort. If anything I could say that it works in spite of my disbelief, and that makes it all the more fascinating.

The ritual, spell, conjuration, working... are all that there is in magic. Whether you get it from a book or make it up yourself, you're either following some sort of plan of how-it-is-supposed-to-work, or you are just wasting time pretending you can visualize and "will" yourself toward vague notions of personal power. If you have used Magic, you have followed some sort of method. There were words, actions, symbols, and a plan for its use. If you don't actually do something, it's not Magic but Luck that you have chosen to pursue.

Very little of the background for the grimoires is given. If a person were unfamiliar with Judaism and Christianity, the grimoires would not give too much of a hint at the nature of those religions. The correct performance is required, and that works or fails regardless of the magician's beliefs. I know for a fact that there are people in India who use part of the Grimoirium Verum and have almost no idea who Jehovah and Lucifer are. On a similar but lighter note there is an old Sonny Chiba movie where the main villain casts spells from Le Dragon Rouge as part of his Christian cabal against Buddhists.

-Like I said, if you're genuinely happy and effective in your practice then its dangerous to even consider what I'm saying to you. The only reason I approached this young lady was to open her mind a bit before she starts chasing ghosts.

Come on and spare me the great danger of freestyle Chaos Magic. Do be creative, be original, that's great. But give an honest appraisal of what magic does for you, and pay attention to the way in which it is accomplished. Also be careful not to under- or over-estimate any occult work without careful experimentation.