Goetic Experiment - Gremory, The evocation fails, can you hazard a guess why? Options

Hi all,

I've been working on a Goetic evocation of Gremory for some time now, following Imperial Arts' instructions (that is to say: following the instructions in the text exactly). So far, I have not had any success whatsoever and, having run out of ideas, I would like to ask for your help in identifying potential flaws or issues in either my tools or procedures (or both). I've PMed the contents of this post to Imperial Arts, but I thought it may be beneficial to post it publicly as well, on the chance that someone else may learn from my mistakes.

Here, then, is my setup.



Tools

Robe - white linen, self-made; the hat is made from the same material with a pointy top and sides coming over the ears

No belt (I have yet to acquire the lion skin necessary)

A silver disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side around the neck

A copper disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side and the seal of Gremory on the other

A hexagram of Solomon made from calf skin with the figure burnt into it; covered by a piece of linen cloth and attached to the skirt of the robe by a pin

A silver ring with three names inscribed on it

Hyssop oil - proper, 100% pure oil, purchased from a friend who mixes her own

Sword - an cast iron sword

Hazel wand - just that, a hazel wand

An incense burner with a charcoal and benzoin incense

A mix of sulphur + asafetida in a container - though I admit, I never have used this stuff

Chains - set of chains to suspend the stinky mixture and seal above a flame on a sword blade

Circle - 9 feet in diameter, fashioned after the diagram in MS 2731 (using the names + sigils of planets); names are in English (as per two of the MS's and to keep consistent with the rest of the inscriptions, which are in English); the circle is drawn on a large piece of canvas; the four candle 'holders' (pentagrams) are on separate squares of canvas positioned around the circle

Triangle - 3 feet on each side, 2 feet away from the circle in the East; names as in MS; circle in the middle unshaded/uncolored


Procedure

-Working on the even days of the waxing moon (e.g. today - July 16, 2007 - being the 2nd day of the moon)

-Working shortly after sunrise (because I'm dealing with a duke here)

-Begin by washing my face and hands (while reciting the Psalm) and applying Hyssop oil to eyes (closed! :-) , eyebrows, and temples (the stuff burns, but no permanent damage...I hope)

-Next, I put on the robe, then pentacles (silver and copper), then ring, then hat, all the while reciting the proper passage ("I cloath myself...")

-Then, I light the four candles and step into the circle

-Kneeling, I recite the prayers from book 5

-At the completion of the above, I begin by reading the first Conjuration as per MS 3825

-The above step is repeated several times and if nothing happens, I go on to 2nd Conjuration, then Constraint, then Invocation of King (Amaymon, in this case), then repeat Conjuration 1+2+Constraint, then Curse of Chains

-if all of the above fails to produce any noticeable results whatsoever, this is where I stop, read a slightly modified version of 'License to Depart' and finish

I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that if my actions up to the point of Conjuration of Fire yielded in no result, there is little point to stinking up the place with the fire and sulfur.


And that's that. During this whole procedure there is nothing at all that happens. There are no sounds, temperature changes, light changes, etc. I presume that lack of *any* results indicates a crucial flaw in the operation, for that would be the case in any other scientific experiment.


Any ideas/thoughts/comments?


Many thanks,

-Theodor

This post has been edited by Theodor Voland: Jul 16 2007, 03:32 PM

Astarte was a Mesopotamian goddess of fertility and sexuality, but Astaroth is a male demon that is "ugly and has bad breath." Unfortunately, many Ceremonial magicians use the names interchangably to call either. This may be what Michael meant when he told you that Astaroth was both a goddess and a demon. That, or Astarte is a demon that set itself up as a Mesopotamian goddess long ago.

Erm... doesn't it seem a little, uh, extreme to hold a goetic spirit like that...? You could offer a sacrifice of food, hair, or whatever to get on their good sides, or you can use the Vessel of Brass technique to have your arm flexed on them at all times... but having an open-ended ritual like that so the spirit can run amok in your life seems really, really... um... reckless? I have MUCH stronger terms to describe such unwise actions that I want to use...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/velho.gif)

Astarte was a Mesopotamian goddess of fertility and sexuality, but Astaroth is a male demon that is "ugly and has bad breath." Unfortunately, many Ceremonial magicians use the names interchangably to call either. This may be what Michael meant when he told you that Astaroth was both a goddess and a demon. That, or Astarte is a demon that set itself up as a Mesopotamian goddess long ago.

Yeah, my understanding of the name astaroth is that it is a word that means several different spirits, possibly a class of spirits, so I tend to think of astaroth as a primal force that works it's mojo through it's minions. Kind of like a hindu God working it's magic through it's lesser gods. I've never actually seen one spirit, a goddess or otherwise, only many different minions when working with this goetic.

but having an open-ended ritual like that so the spirit can run amok in your life seems really, really... um... reckless? I have MUCH stronger terms to describe such unwise actions that I want to use...

hahaha, I know, I know, but I try not to work too much with demons. Astaroth and flauros are the only two demons I work with right now. I try and balance my spiritual diet by working with angels as much, or more, than I do with demons.

As for the brass vessel method, I'm going to make myself a liber spiritus (but I'm still working on my angel book) that Nero described in his class lesson on books of power. It's basically the same concept, to contain the spirits in the book and force them to swear an oath on their seal to not cause me any harm. Like I said, I'll get to that maybe later on in my life if the angel book is as good as I think it will be, and hey, if it is maybe I won't have any use for demons right?




Theodor Voland,

How is everything working out for you? Any luck? Maybe you could try what some people suggest here, and try evoking every night?

Did you check out the incense's that I mentioned?

Theodor Voland,

How is everything working out for you? Any luck? Maybe you could try what some people suggest here, and try evoking every night?

Did you check out the incense's that I mentioned?

I've done a few more evocations (on the even days of the Moon) of Gremory and Dantalion. So far, I have not had any visible or audible manifestations.
I'll resume my work next month, when the moon is in the proper state for the operations.

I am not planning to evoke every night because (a) Dukes are to be evoked in the morning, and getting up at 5am every day before work to evoke for a few hours is taxing and (b) Goetia text is very specific about days and stages of the moon - so, only several days in a month are useful. I'll keep at it the 'traditional' way for a while and see where it takes me before considering the alternatives.

Thank you for your input in this thread thus far - I've been reading it with interest.

-Theodor

Theodor,

You're reading the conjurations but how are you reading them? When you perform the invocation of the bornless one do you feel the invocated force? When you speak the conjurations it should feel as through your speaking with the voice of the bornless one, with complete authority. When speaking the conjurations you must give yourself to the words, you must feel as though your voice rings to the end of the universe. Are you standing there uttering the words beneath your breath? If so then you must speak loudly and clearly. Are you reading the words flatly? If so you must invest emotion and sweat into reading the conjurations. Listen to a politician giving a rousing speech, putting their entire body into saying those words, this is a good example of how to speak the conjurations.

How dark is it in the room where you perform the evocations? The only sources of light in the room should be from the candles illuminating the edge of the circle.

How much incense are you using? The two times I achieved full manifestation of decarbia, after I had finished the operation and flicked the lightswitch there was a very thick veil of smoke obscuring the ceiling.

When you make mistakes in the conjurations do you try to correct yourself? Do you find yourself faltering? If you do you mustn't let it distract you, you mustn't allow any mistakes you make in the pronunciation of the words to disrupt the flow of your speech.

You will usually see the spirit first as a black mass within the triangle (I learned that I had to make the triangle larger and larger each time I performed a evocation as this black mass would spill over and obscure the edge of the triangle until the mass was constrained) you will then see this mass testing the outer edge of the triangle, it moves like water and flows steadily around into each corner before spilling into the adjacent corner, a faint pearl-like object can be seen within this mass (I assume as I was working with decarbia that this was the seed of the star that forms the spirit's body in the description). Getting that far is fairly easy for me within 2 or 3 hours but it is immensely difficult to bring the spirit any further into manifestation, I've only succeeded in bringing a spirit any further than that twice - I do not know if this is true for the rest of the goetic spirits but decarbia's geometric body was identical in colour to when you see a bright light and close your eyes, a blurry red, you could try looking for signs of this colour during the evocation.

I've never understood folk developing their 'astral senses' in order to see or hear the evoked spirit, you can converse with it normally when you get as far as the black mass stage.

I hope you take something away from this that helps you achieve physical manifestation in your work.

Heebeejeebees,

Thank you for your post. My comments are below.

When you perform the invocation of the bornless one do you feel the invocated force? When you speak the conjurations it should feel as through your speaking with the voice of the bornless one, with complete authority.

I don't use the Bornless ritual as it is not a part of the Goetia text.

When speaking the conjurations you must give yourself to the words, you must feel as though your voice rings to the end of the universe. Are you standing there uttering the words beneath your breath? If so then you must speak loudly and clearly. Are you reading the words flatly? If so you must invest emotion and sweat into reading the conjurations. Listen to a politician giving a rousing speech, putting their entire body into saying those words, this is a good example of how to speak the conjurations.

I recite the conjurations loudly and emphatically.

How dark is it in the room where you perform the evocations? The only sources of light in the room should be from the candles illuminating the edge of the circle.

The blinds are drawn, but there is enough ambient light to be able to read/write, for example, as the evocations of Dukes (such as Gremory) are done in the morning, from sunrise till noon.

How much incense are you using?

None, until the spirit appears, as per Goetia text. Incense is burnt after the spirit makes its appearance, is addressed, and welcomed.

When you make mistakes in the conjurations do you try to correct yourself? Do you find yourself faltering? If you do you mustn't let it distract you, you mustn't allow any mistakes you make in the pronunciation of the words to disrupt the flow of your speech.

I keep the flow, as I have the text nearly committed to memory.

You will usually see the spirit first as a black mass within the triangle...

I have not yet seen this. I would consider this a very good first sign of manifestation/visible appearance.

I've never understood folk developing their 'astral senses' in order to see or hear the evoked spirit, you can converse with it normally when you get as far as the black mass stage.

Agreed, but what if I do not get as far as the black mass stage? How do I get there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


-Theodor

I don't use the Bornless ritual as it is not a part of the Goetia text.
I recite the conjurations loudly and emphatically.
The blinds are drawn, but there is enough ambient light to be able to read/write, for example, as the evocations of Dukes (such as Gremory) are done in the morning, from sunrise till noon.
None, until the spirit appears, as per Goetia text. Incense is burnt after the spirit makes its appearance, is addressed, and welcomed.
I keep the flow, as I have the text nearly committed to memory.
I have not yet seen this. I would consider this a very good first sign of manifestation/visible appearance.
Agreed, but what if I do not get as far as the black mass stage? How do I get there? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
-Theodor

Couple of questions I have are: where do you place the incense holder/chafing bowl? Inside the circle, outwith it, or inside the triangle itself? I'm guessing inside the circle as you wouldn't want to step outwith it, and do you focus on the triangle as you speak the conjurations? About the "astral sight" it might be worth a go, to me that wouldn't feel right is all.

I don't have any advice other than what I previously posted, but you are already doing all that and more with no results. I'm nonplussed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Sorry if you've already mentioned this in one of your previous posts, but what other systems of evocation have you worked with prior to the goetia? Did you experience the same problem?

IMO, I think that this probably happens because you don't use the hyssop oil. Just a suggestion, as imperial arts says that he would only see a black mass before he started using it. After that he would see and hear them fine.

Thanks! Do you remember the thread title where imperial arts said that? If someone else experienced the same black mass during their work, that would prove to me at least that these systems have a very specific influence that can be replicated in different people - on another website where folk wrote about a group working they experienced the spirits completely differently to each other, and they didn't mention the black mass stage (need a better name for that).

This post has been edited by Heebeejeebees: Aug 5 2007, 12:07 PM

Thanks! Do you remember the thread title where imperial arts said that? If someone else experienced the same black mass during their work, that would prove to me at least that these systems have a very specific influence that can be replicated in different people - on another website where folk wrote about a group working they experienced the spirits completely differently to each other, and they didn't mention the black mass stage (need a better name for that).

It was either in the class lesson on goetia by imperial arts, or in the Q&A of that same class.

It was either in the class lesson on goetia by imperial arts, or in the Q&A of that same class.

I read through those topics last night and today but didn't come across that bit, bym stepped in at one point and deleted some posts, I think the point about the hyssop oil helping with getting past the inky blob stage might have been deleted. Tried a forum search too but it came up with only those two topics (the goetia class lesson and q&a) again.

I've been using water, it does say 'o lord cleanse me with hyssop' or something similar tho'.

The type of oil used for the anointing is not specified in the text. I use hyssop because it is part of the psalm (is it 114?) "purge me with hyssop" etc. While I wouldn't suggest you should just use any oil, I will not say hyssop specifically is necessary. Several sacred oils are described in religious and occult texts and (so far as I am aware) none are hyssop.

It was initially Furcas that appeared as a black form, and it was not a blob or anything like that, though maybe others do appear this way. What appeared was something like a man pulled into a goat shape as if he were made of taffy. The legs were deformed, the fingers were joined together like cloven hooves, and the face was long with large ears. It was very distinct, extremely disturbing, and since I had the triangle in the wrong place it was right next to my circle and far too close for comfort. When finally this spirit was called properly, the deformed goat thing was no more than a "mount" for the real apparition.

Foras, also called without the oil, did not appear at all, and it was not until the place was full of smoke that it finally showed itself. It was outlined in smoke, which was fortunately thick enough for it to make a clear hole in the shape of a very large hunch-backed man with long arms and a protrusion from between its short legs like a tail or tongue. The smoke moved out from its mouth as it spoke, and was gently moved by its swaying appendage. The fully-visible form was identical except in that the "eye" or whatever on its forehead was visible and the musculature was defined, all without smoke.

Adopting new tools as they became available allowed me to see what effect each had on the overall ceremony.

Foras, also called without the oil, did not appear at all, and it was not until the place was full of smoke that it finally showed itself.

So would you say that it's probably a good idea to use plenty of incense to get at least some manifestation? At least for those of us who don't usually get a physical manifestation. Also, it would seem to me that it's most appropriate to use a planetary incense for this purpose.

On a side note, I recommend using copal, and tree resin that is used a lot here in mexico for church incense, to be used in place of frankincense, in case anyone decides to try this, let me know. I like that resin very much, as it seems to induce a trance state very quickly and it lets out a lot of smoke, more than any other resin or incense I've ever used, from a small clump. It's a very churchy sweet smell, so it adds to the sacred feel.

I too would like to know about the smoke. Was the smoke a result of your burning incense? Or was it a part of the manifestation?

I too would like to know about the smoke. Was the smoke a result of your burning incense? Or was it a part of the manifestation?

The smoke came from coals in a thick brass dish set within the circle on a steel tripod about three feet high.

At this time much of what I was doing was entirely non-traditional. I had a chalk circle and triangle in a detached garage, four large candles, a black cotton robe with an uninscribed leather belt, and the seal of the spirit engraved on an aluminum plate manufactured from the flattened bottom of a Pepsi can.

It is perhaps for this reason that the spirit was unwilling to answer, unwilling to do as I requested, and generally obstinate and offensive in all things. The conjurations were said and the fire made ready, but the curse was not necessary.

I requested from it a healthy mortal life of 600 years, and was denied with the admonition that it would not have answered "it it were not for the names," addressing me as "pathetic magician" and similar remarks. It was curt and was eager to depart, demanding its release several times. As mentioned previously, I have also called this spirit according to the traditional format, and the exchange was more pleasant although the mannerisms of the spirit were consistent with those of its first arrival.

This spirit, as demanded during the initial conjuration, has saved my life from what would have been fatal accidental injuries (long falls onto rock, crushing by tree limb, sharp objects) many times and miraculously at that. Presumably as a result of my improper binding, in each instance it seemed as though the spirit also provoked the need for its unrequested assistance. Surviving probably-fatal injuries without a scratch is wonderful, having to survive them frequently is not.

...
At this time much of what I was doing was entirely non-traditional. I had a chalk circle and triangle in a detached garage, four large candles, a black cotton robe with an uninscribed leather belt, and the seal of the spirit engraved on an aluminum plate manufactured from the flattened bottom of a Pepsi can.

Fascinating! And at the same time frustrating - how can one person get visible results with a non-traditional procedure (e.g. seal made from a pop can) and other, like myself, cannot get any noticeable results at all! What a puzzle... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)