Is There More To The Goetia Thanmeets The Eye Options

Greetings, I'm asking fo opinions/views on the goetia as wriiten and used to obtain physical manifestation.

I have for the past few months gathered the tools, everything is complete. Followed the class lessons, and the text in the book( I have Petersons book and the Crowly/mathers version), experimenting with the procedure. I began conjuring three months ago, and I must say I have had no noticeable results. I use the proper metals for the seals etc experimented with the conjurations using different versions etc, with nothing showing even partial results.

I have used things like dittany of crete for manifestaion aswell. My question really is, it would seem the goetia doesn't work as written for physical manifestation, so is there more to the goetia than meets the eye? and am I missing something? I have a feeling there are more subtle aspects to this system, which are not written down. I would like to ask others who have had success with this system for their views and opinions, and what they believe results in thier success.

Thanks Loki

Well, it depends. Are you summoning specific spirits for specific purposes, or are you summoning random spirits just to see if they'll show up? If it's the latter, I'm not too surprised you haven't had any sort of response as that's a cosmic version of the juvenile prank of ringing the neighbour's doorbell then running away before they answer. That sort of thing gets tedious fast. If that's your goal try a Ouija board as that's what they're made for.

Now, if you're summoning specific spirits for specific purposes, you might want to think about what you're doing and why. I don't use a lot of the traditional tools--I prefer the 'seat of pants' approach--yet I've had fairly decent results with the Goetia because I'm consistent with my reasons, I know WHY I'm doing what I'm doing, and I'm not summoning them for something simple that I could do if I just got my ass off the couch. I also show respect to them--I'm the boss, but usually if they say 'no' to something I'm requesting that they do they usually have a damned good reason for it. While I may not like this, it saves me from my own stupidity more often than not. Keep this in mind while you work.

Also, don't overthink it. If you're worrying about what WON'T happen you won't be paying attention to the subtle things which WILL eventually happen, and so you won't learn to look for signs of success. Best thing to do is just remember that you're the boss, stay focused, write everything down, and give your conjuring time to work. It can be slow at first as magic is a learned skill, but eventually you'll get the hang of it.

Good luck...

Thanks for the reply Darkmage. I have taken my pursuit of this very seriously, and I'm not conjuring things just to see if they show up or not. I have concrete reasons for the evocations, which have nothing to do with me playing "pranks". If I was of this attitude I wouldn't bother getting the tools right and spend 18 hours drawing out the circle, and making the seals.

I'm interested in doing Goetia as written in the text and to gain physical manifestation, as part of securing whatever it is that you want.
With your success, do you experience physical manifestation, or do you scry? And can you expand on "giving your conjuration time to work". According to the text there is no implication about this allowance for time. As for scrying etc, I have done that in the past, and its a skill that takes time, but its not what I'm doing at the moment. Thanks


Loki

Thanks for the reply Darkmage. I have taken my pursuit of this very seriously, and I'm not conjuring things just to see if they show up or not. I have concrete reasons for the evocations, which have nothing to do with me playing "pranks". If I was of this attitude I wouldn't bother getting the tools right and spend 18 hours drawing out the circle, and making the seals.

I'm interested in doing Goetia as written in the text and to gain physical manifestation, as part of securing whatever it is that you want.
With your success, do you experience physical manifestation, or do you scry? And can you expand on "giving your conjuration time to work". According to the text there is no implication about this allowance for time. As for scrying etc, I have done that in the past, and its a skill that takes time, but its not what I'm doing at the moment. Thanks
Loki

I've actually had pretty good results with physical manifestation. Basically, I take a burner filled with hot charcoal, dump a crapload of frankincense on it (although any gum incense will work, frankincense is cheap here at roughly 99 cents/oz) and put that in the triangle. Usually what I get is a rough image much like a weak TV signal--sometimes I get 'ghosts' or it will break up and reform. Sometimes I just get a feeling that something is present. Sometimes I get nothing at all at that time, yet I have really vivid dreams where the spirit appears and might as well be someone sitting in the room with me. It really varies and I've yet to figure out why. Sometimes I think it's personal preference on the part of the entity, but I'm not really sure. Hell, maybe it's dumb luck. Sometimes I wonder...

As for scrying, I SUCK. I'm not much of a visual person to begin with, but I've been trying my hand at ball gazing for years with only a pitiful level of success. That having been said, it advanced my personal dream work substantially, so...but this goes back to what I said about not having a preconceived idea of what the results 'should' be and instead letting things flow as they will.

And in the same vein, waiting for results to appear can take time. Sometimes it only takes a day or so, sometimes it takes years for the proper conditions to arise. But then that begs the question--would things have happened in the same way if you *didn't* do the working? Crowley mentions this in Magick In Theory and Practise: he uses the example of sending a letter to a friend. Then, he does a working so that friend will respond to the letter. The next day in the mail, he receives his response. This means that the letter had to be sent BEFORE the working started, but who's to say it would have arrived in such a timely manner had he NOT done the working? Therein is where the wonder lies.

Now, say, you do a spell for money. Unless you're a materialising medium (these do exist but are very very very rare), a sack of rare coins is simply *not* going to fall out of the sky into the triangle. Instead, you may find yourself winning little prizes from contests at local shops. You may get a spontaneous raise. You might find a fiver in the street, or suddenly find a debt you've been worried about suddenly canceled. The possibilites are endless. People say that magic happens in the most natural, ordinary fashion. I've not found that to be the case--a lot of *ahem* 'coincidences' I've had seem(ed) pretty damned UNnatural, but they were still within the realm of ordinary probabilities.

A lot of the trick is knowing when to stop worrying about whatever results you're trying to achieve and simply to let the spirit step back and follow orders. Most of them are pretty friendly once you get to know them, and they will enjoy helping you, but they can't do that unless you disengage and allow them to do as they've been asked. Micromanaging spirits is often NOT helpful at all.

And one final thing--most of these things I've mentioned apply to magic across the board, whether it's candle magic or full-blown evocation. Evocation is one of the most powerful forms of magic, and it's really only wise to use it when you really need the big guns.