Is There More To The Goetia Thanmeets The Eye Options

Greetings, I'm asking fo opinions/views on the goetia as wriiten and used to obtain physical manifestation.

I have for the past few months gathered the tools, everything is complete. Followed the class lessons, and the text in the book( I have Petersons book and the Crowly/mathers version), experimenting with the procedure. I began conjuring three months ago, and I must say I have had no noticeable results. I use the proper metals for the seals etc experimented with the conjurations using different versions etc, with nothing showing even partial results.

I have used things like dittany of crete for manifestaion aswell. My question really is, it would seem the goetia doesn't work as written for physical manifestation, so is there more to the goetia than meets the eye? and am I missing something? I have a feeling there are more subtle aspects to this system, which are not written down. I would like to ask others who have had success with this system for their views and opinions, and what they believe results in thier success.

Thanks Loki

Maybe, Loki, you're working with the wrong grimoire. I'm not saying to give up with the lesser key, but goetia encompasses the grimoirium verum, grand grimoire, etc. I can't say much about some things, but the lesser key is not the best book for evoking demons, and it's not the most effective one either. The GV may seem very difficult to use (killing a goat, skinning it to make parchment and form a leather circle, etc.) but all the tools can be gathered and consecrated within a month if everything is planned ahead of time. The parchment can be bought and consecrated according to the book. Leather strips can be bought and also consecrated as per the book to form the circle. I plan to gather all the tools to use it in the near future.

Also, the lesser key is not very old. Check out older sources. If you don't have it, you might consider getting a copy of "The greek magical papyri in translation". My copy is in the mail, but from what I hear, it could show how far back goety work goes, but certainly not where it originates. People were evoking IAO and various other godforms in those days, so for people that believe that godforms can't be evoked, or that gods such as Horus, or Astarte or Amun aren't in the lesser key, well then more research is in order.

Now, back to the topic, lol. In my experience, spirits can be roaming around in the physical plane, but without a physical body. SO, just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there. With one of the nicer goetics, I had a dish thrown in my room because he was mad someone had smoked in my bedroom that day (I used to do evocations in my room. Needless to say, I don't do that anymore ) and it clashed with the incense I was using for him.

So, although the lesser key doesn't really explain it, (and in those days, it was common knowledge) to have a time of celibacy and fasting was the key component to success. Plus, since you've read the greater key, you know that it's suggested to evoke in a crossroads, or some other such place where there is a lot of inherent magical power. The desert, the mountains, a forest or woody area near a stream is important to see the spirit. Just go have a party in the woods with lots of people drinking and making out. As an example, go to a nearby area by yourself there when no one is looking, relax your vision, and right away you'll see a lot of elementals running around crowding around the people. If you were to evoke there, you'd get a much easier and clearer vision of the spirit. There is a nearby make-out spot where I live and I've seen so many elementals there, that if I didn't know my scrying abilities were so terrible, I'd think I was psychic (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Loki, what do you do when nothing shows up? Do you give the license to depart? Or do you make a request to the spirit even if you don't see it, and then give the license? I'm just asking, because I almost never see anything, but still get my requests answered. Also, try using a pendulum during the evocations. I know it sounds highly unorthodox, but you can get very clear and powerful (sometimes weird) movements that can give you further insight about why that pesky demon won't appear.

One last note is that maybe you need a grimoire-specific teacher that can help you with this. Someone that has worked extensively with the lesser key and that has done it exactly how you want to do it. I know a couple people that have offered to help me out, so if you are open to getting a teacher, they'll find you. Plus I also know at least one guy on this forum (other than imperial arts) that has evoked in the classic way like you, and got full physical manifestations. Look around, you'll find the way eventually, if you're persitent. Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

Don't give up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Hi Altpath, thanks for the reply.

you're working with the wrong grimoire. I'm not saying to give up with the lesser key, but goetia encompasses the grimoirium verum, grand grimoire, etc. I can't say much about some things, but the lesser key is not the best book for evoking demons, and it's not the most effective one either. The GV may seem very difficult to use (killing a goat, skinning it to make parchment and form a leather circle, etc.) but all the tools can be gathered and consecrated within a month if everything is planned ahead of time. The parchment can be bought and consecrated according to the book. Leather strips can be bought and also consecrated as per the book to form the circle. I plan to gather all the tools to use it in the near future

Its possible i suppose, and I haven't read the Grimoirum Verum. Although I am reluctant due to all the time, energy and expense invested in the goetia to do that at the moment, but I will bear it in mind. The last couple of evocations I've done has seen an improvement, in various ways, although physical manifestation remains elusive.


So, although the lesser key doesn't really explain it, (and in those days, it was common knowledge) to have a time of celibacy and fasting was the key component to success

Yes I have considered this, although its explicitly mentioned in the Grimoires that I've read, but not in the goetia. Having said that its something I would look at testing in the future.



Loki, what do you do when nothing shows up? Do you give the license to depart? Or do you make a request to the spirit even if you don't see it, and then give the license? I'm just asking, because I almost never see anything, but still get my requests answered

This something I've started to do, just really because there has been subtle changes in the room. Although I have had no results to speak of, this may be down to various things.

One last note is that maybe you need a grimoire-specific teacher that can help you with this. Someone that has worked extensively with the lesser key and that has done it exactly how you want to do it. I know a couple people that have offered to help me out, so if you are open to getting a teacher, they'll find you. Plus I also know at least one guy on this forum (other than imperial arts) that has evoked in the classic way like you, and got full physical manifestations. Look around, you'll find the way eventually, if you're persitent. Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

Interesting point. Although now I believe its not necessarily something I'm doing wrong in the ceremony, but something I have to work within me. I've some good pointers in that direction. And knowing other people have success with this in the traditional form, there's ony so many ways to perform the ritual, (and I've done them all, I think), what remains is an aspect of myself thats causing the lack of success. But I believe I know where to go with that, hopefully.

Some people take 10 years practicing daily before they start getting results. Not that I hope you have that problem, but I'm just sayin'.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif) Great. Seriously I'm happy to work on this for the next few months or even a couple of years at most, but that time span doesn't sound appealing at all.

Thanks again
Loki

I have a couple questions for you.

The tools that you gathered for the Goetia, did you perform the exorcisms on them from the KoS?
Are you performing the constraint, and or the curse to get them to show up?
I know that the first evocation I had done I had to do the curse to get them to show. Ever since then though they show up wth little effort.

I have this theory. Well actually it is in Dee's journal somewhere. Ave tells Dee and Kelly that the various spirits are around us all the time whether we perceive them or not. This makes me think that when eventhough a new magician makes all the tools the spirits are watching us. They(spirits) may even be thinking "Yeah right, dude. I know you're a newbie so I don't have to take you seriously. Who do you think you are anyway?". I like yourself am very traditional in my approach. I don't fall into the "treat the spirits nice and they will be sweet to you" camp. I say you should respect them, but at the same time be firm with them. They should know you are the boss, but you shouldn't be cruel either or your results will start to get iffy.

If you are doing these things and they still aren't showing up then there must be a reason. Maybe the stars, or someone else is working against you Oh and make sure you are doing it only on the even days after the new moon. Odd days according to the grimoire will either fail or work against you. Then the last thing is yourself. You may be outwardly wanting them to show while internaly hoping they do not.
So many variables, but you will breakthrough eventually.

Oh and make sure you are doing it only on the even days after the new moon. Odd days according to the grimoire will either fail or work against you.

Is that so? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't understand the definition of even days anyway. Is new moon same as empty moon? Do you use the exact time of day of the new moon or do you just count days? Do you count the days according to the regular calendar or by the magical days where the sunrise counts as the first magical hour?

Or to make it simpler, assuming that the empty moon is on a Monday evening at 19.45. When exactly does the odd days start and end? And same for the even days?

"I don't understand the definition of even days anyway. Is new moon same as empty moon? Do you use the exact time of day of the new moon or do you just count days? Do you count the days according to the regular calendar or by the magical days where the sunrise counts as the first magical hour?"--Grab

No. The newmoon is not the black of the moon. It is the very first sliver of its return from the earth's shadow.
I have been doing it based on locality. Magicaly speaking the day begins when the sun emerges at the eastern horizen. The nighttime even if it is after midnight is still the same day until the sun rises again.
Say for instance it is monday and the sun is setting. There is no moon tonight so don't do anything. Tuseday's sun rises and sets and now it is night time. The moon makes its first appearance (new moon). Don't do anything on this night either as it is the first night and one is an odd number. The next night is Wednesday and the second night of the moon's light. This is a perfect night for goetic work. Then skip the next night, and again the following night is an even day so you can do goetic work.

Now that being said I have done goetic workings on "odd" days of the moon and I have gotten some iffy results. It just seems to work better on even nights so i reconmend doing on those nights until you get your first successful operation.

I hope this helps.