Goetic Experiment - Gremory, The evocation fails, can you hazard a guess why? Options

Hi all,

I've been working on a Goetic evocation of Gremory for some time now, following Imperial Arts' instructions (that is to say: following the instructions in the text exactly). So far, I have not had any success whatsoever and, having run out of ideas, I would like to ask for your help in identifying potential flaws or issues in either my tools or procedures (or both). I've PMed the contents of this post to Imperial Arts, but I thought it may be beneficial to post it publicly as well, on the chance that someone else may learn from my mistakes.

Here, then, is my setup.



Tools

Robe - white linen, self-made; the hat is made from the same material with a pointy top and sides coming over the ears

No belt (I have yet to acquire the lion skin necessary)

A silver disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side around the neck

A copper disk with the pentagram of Solomon inscribed on one side and the seal of Gremory on the other

A hexagram of Solomon made from calf skin with the figure burnt into it; covered by a piece of linen cloth and attached to the skirt of the robe by a pin

A silver ring with three names inscribed on it

Hyssop oil - proper, 100% pure oil, purchased from a friend who mixes her own

Sword - an cast iron sword

Hazel wand - just that, a hazel wand

An incense burner with a charcoal and benzoin incense

A mix of sulphur + asafetida in a container - though I admit, I never have used this stuff

Chains - set of chains to suspend the stinky mixture and seal above a flame on a sword blade

Circle - 9 feet in diameter, fashioned after the diagram in MS 2731 (using the names + sigils of planets); names are in English (as per two of the MS's and to keep consistent with the rest of the inscriptions, which are in English); the circle is drawn on a large piece of canvas; the four candle 'holders' (pentagrams) are on separate squares of canvas positioned around the circle

Triangle - 3 feet on each side, 2 feet away from the circle in the East; names as in MS; circle in the middle unshaded/uncolored


Procedure

-Working on the even days of the waxing moon (e.g. today - July 16, 2007 - being the 2nd day of the moon)

-Working shortly after sunrise (because I'm dealing with a duke here)

-Begin by washing my face and hands (while reciting the Psalm) and applying Hyssop oil to eyes (closed! :-) , eyebrows, and temples (the stuff burns, but no permanent damage...I hope)

-Next, I put on the robe, then pentacles (silver and copper), then ring, then hat, all the while reciting the proper passage ("I cloath myself...")

-Then, I light the four candles and step into the circle

-Kneeling, I recite the prayers from book 5

-At the completion of the above, I begin by reading the first Conjuration as per MS 3825

-The above step is repeated several times and if nothing happens, I go on to 2nd Conjuration, then Constraint, then Invocation of King (Amaymon, in this case), then repeat Conjuration 1+2+Constraint, then Curse of Chains

-if all of the above fails to produce any noticeable results whatsoever, this is where I stop, read a slightly modified version of 'License to Depart' and finish

I presume (perhaps incorrectly) that if my actions up to the point of Conjuration of Fire yielded in no result, there is little point to stinking up the place with the fire and sulfur.


And that's that. During this whole procedure there is nothing at all that happens. There are no sounds, temperature changes, light changes, etc. I presume that lack of *any* results indicates a crucial flaw in the operation, for that would be the case in any other scientific experiment.


Any ideas/thoughts/comments?


Many thanks,

-Theodor

This post has been edited by Theodor Voland: Jul 16 2007, 03:32 PM

TV,

Do you place a censer in the triangle or have any kind of scrying device either there or in your circle with you? Not knowing the precise instructions in that manuscript you are using I don't know if that is something that is recommended or not, but the Rankine and Skinner book which I mentioned in that other thread that you posted on seems to conclude that Rudd may have used both these practices simultaneously. The supposition appears to be that the spirit may have manifested in either of these two locations, and if no obvious result was detected in the triangle the magician would sit down to scry the shew-stone in the circle prior to moving on to the next phase of the operation or declaring it unsuccessful.

For my own part, I have attempted Goetia on three occasions. The third time was the charm, and in this case I altered my prior approach dramatically by placing a large mirror in the triangle, facing me, with the censer in front of it. I also made use of the conjuration of the fire, which I had previously avoided. I suspect that you are seeking after the direct physical manifestation over and above other methods of communing with the entity, but it would be interesting to know if you have any success with any of these techniques. They may not be exactly what you are after, but if they produce some kind of result then that has to be preferable to a complete failure.

Hi J*S,

My censer is inside the circle, because I would light it only in the case of spirit's appearance and not prior to (this is according to any version of Goetia text I've seen, modern variations notwithstanding). Were I to have it outside of the circle, I'd have to use a sword to pass the fire into it and I'm not sure if I have the required dexterity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for a scrying device - I do not use one at this point. Previously, when I was fooling around with all sorts of variations, I did use a black mirror (the triangle was propped up at about 60 degrees from the floor and the mirror was in the center thereof). I would see random things every now and then, but without consistency and probably more as a result of my imagination rather than any actual manifestation. Likewise, the results of these evocations were haphazard, and tended to fail more often than succeed.

Now, I am aiming for proper evocation with proper manifestations and proper results. I don't mind going through a number of failed experiments to "get it right." And since a number of people have succeeded in doing so, I presume it is possible.

Regards,

-T.V.

TV,

Do you place a censer in the triangle or have any kind of scrying device either there or in your circle with you? Not knowing the precise instructions in that manuscript you are using I don't know if that is something that is recommended or not, but the Rankine and Skinner book which I mentioned in that other thread that you posted on seems to conclude that Rudd may have used both these practices simultaneously. The supposition appears to be that the spirit may have manifested in either of these two locations, and if no obvious result was detected in the triangle the magician would sit down to scry the shew-stone in the circle prior to moving on to the next phase of the operation or declaring it unsuccessful.

For my own part, I have attempted Goetia on three occasions. The third time was the charm, and in this case I altered my prior approach dramatically by placing a large mirror in the triangle, facing me, with the censer in front of it. I also made use of the conjuration of the fire, which I had previously avoided. I suspect that you are seeking after the direct physical manifestation over and above other methods of communing with the entity, but it would be interesting to know if you have any success with any of these techniques. They may not be exactly what you are after, but if they produce some kind of result then that has to be preferable to a complete failure.

Hi J*S,

My censer is inside the circle, because I would light it only in the case of spirit's appearance and not prior to (this is according to any version of Goetia text I've seen, modern variations notwithstanding). Were I to have it outside of the circle, I'd have to use a sword to pass the fire into it and I'm not sure if I have the required dexterity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for a scrying device - I do not use one at this point. Previously, when I was fooling around with all sorts of variations, I did use a black mirror (the triangle was propped up at about 60 degrees from the floor and the mirror was in the center thereof). I would see random things every now and then, but without consistency and probably more as a result of my imagination rather than any actual manifestation. Likewise, the results of these evocations were haphazard, and tended to fail more often than succeed.

Now, I am aiming for proper evocation with proper manifestations and proper results. I don't mind going through a number of failed experiments to "get it right." And since a number of people have succeeded in doing so, I presume it is possible.

Regards,

-T.V.

Well, this is what you messed up.
1. You were to draw the sigil of Gremory on the body of a rooster or hen, offer it's life either with a knife or fire. This should have been the prelude.

2. Second thing you did wrong that most Goeticians get srewed up is you were to place the triangle of the art in the direction of the spirits geographic domain.( I don't know Gremori's/Gamori's

3. Ideally, you take the sword, aim it at the triangle and start the evocation, you can use the name term God, Be'elzebub or Amay-mon all effectively. Believe it or not Be'elzebub & Amaymon are more familiar names that they tend to fear. However, BANISH by name of God. Ideally, use YHVH at this point.

4. Another mistake you made was that when you were evoking, you didn't have the incense lit. You were to hold the seal of the entity over the burning flames, not too near, while reciting the evocation threatening to drop it in the flames. All of this is done while doing #3.
Burning the seal itself will cause him to appear if he is stubborn.

Hi Jaguar,

Thank you for your reply. Your response intrigues me.

Well, this is what you messed up.
1. You were to draw the sigil of Gremory on the body of a rooster or hen, offer it's life either with a knife or fire. This should have been the prelude.

I am not familiar with this step. I have looked at almost all existing version of Lemegetton and proto- Lemegetton manuscripts, and I do not recall seeing an instruction for sacrifice of a rooster/hen. In fact, sacrifice/gifts are only mentioned specifically for one spirit, and even then, not as a condition for its appearance, but rather to ensure the truthfulness of its statements. I'm curious where you got the above requirement from. I assume you have experimented with this step personally?

2. Second thing you did wrong that most Goeticians get srewed up is you were to place the triangle of the art in the direction of the spirits geographic domain.( I don't know Gremori's/Gamori's

I don't recall mentioning the direction of the triangle, but I have tried it in all 4 directions over several experiments.

3. Ideally, you take the sword, aim it at the triangle and start the evocation, you can use the name term God, Be'elzebub or Amay-mon all effectively. Believe it or not Be'elzebub & Amaymon are more familiar names that they tend to fear. However, BANISH by name of God. Ideally, use YHVH at this point.

Wouldn't Amaymon be more applicable for the spirits of the East only? Also, how does Belzebub figure into Goetia?

4. Another mistake you made was that when you were evoking, you didn't have the incense lit. You were to hold the seal of the entity over the burning flames, not too near, while reciting the evocation threatening to drop it in the flames. All of this is done while doing #3.
Burning the seal itself will cause him to appear if he is stubborn.

I don't see how the incense figures into this. A fire is made during one of the curses. The box with the spirit's seal inside is then placed over that fire, suspended by a chain from a sword.
Only when the spirit shows up, incense is offered to it (by putting it on the flame). To dangle the box over lit incense seems illogical somehow.


-T.V.

Hi Jaguar,

I do not recall seeing an instruction for sacrifice of a rooster/hen.

That's what you're missing.

I don't recall mentioning the direction of the triangle, but I have tried it in all 4 directions over several experiments.

Must find out proper direction. I believe it's SE

Wouldn't Amaymon be more applicable for the spirits of the East only?

Doesn't Gamori rule in the SE?

I don't see how the incense figures into this. A fire is made during one of the curses.

That's a basic and needed part.

Only when the spirit shows up, incense is offered to it (by putting it on the flame). -T.V.

It'll never work your way.

That's what you're missing.
...
It'll never work your way.

Hi Jaguar,

Could you elaborate more on your replies? The one liners such as "it will never work [my] way" aren't that helpful. I am interested in what you have to say, but I would like you to provide a bit more info as to why you think it should be done your way. Is this coming from personal experience? Or from suggestions given to you? Or from another text? Or...?

Thank you,

-Theodor

Hi Jaguar,

Could you elaborate more on your replies? I am interested in what you have to say.....

-Theodor

I just told you everything. Those were the basic neccessities. Gamori's month is December. I just told you what you lacked. An initial sacrifice plus LIT incense. I told you that you must know the proper cardinal point of Gamori which I believe is SE. Otherwise your ritual will be a undoubted failure.


Try charging your sword into a magickal weapon because it works better. Not neccary though.

Those were the basic neccessities.

According to whom? I presume you, correct? If so, is it also correct to presume that you are able to conjure these spirits to visible appearance?

Gamori's month is December.

According to which system? I know Golden Dawn has one and Aurum Solis has one (they conflict with each other). Original Lemegetton manuscripts don't mention months for most spirits.

I told you that you must know the proper cardinal point of Gamori which I believe is SE. Otherwise your ritual will be a undoubted failure.

I will put the triangle in the SE corner next time I conjure Gremory. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that this direction was the correct one?

Try charging your sword into a magickal weapon because it works better. Not neccary though.

Presumable through ritual consecration? Any specific one?

Thank you,

-Theodor

According to whom? I presume you, correct? If so, is it also correct to presume that you are able to conjure these spirits to visible appearance?

Certainly
I will put the triangle in the SE corner next time I conjure Gremory. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that this direction was the correct one?

Presumable through ritual consecration? Any specific one?

Thank you,

-Theodor

Don't listen to the jack-boot below the post. I'm giviong sincere advice.
Well The one I used, I just used candles. But I've consecrated about a year ago so it's not like I know right off bat.

Try South before South East. It's certainly in the Cardinal point of the South though.
Keep practicing as your best day for work will be December 29th.
Follow those steps as I told you and you will get results. I've made certain of the things you questioned.
Lit incense, South position, preliminary sacrifice-doesn't have to be a hen, they sell pigeons at Mexican shoppes, hold charm descended over incense.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hey Jaguar, I was wondering what Grimoire/text this information is taken, I don't have a copy to hand its sounds similair to the Black Serpent, (though this may be incorrect). Or have you come to work this way through trial and error?. And I'm assuming the spirits manifest physically for you. What conjurations do you use? The ones in the goetia, or Greater key or another? Do the preliminaries involve abstinence or any other special conditions such as daily prayers, ritual baths etc?

As far as the the Keys of Solomon go the only reference to killing animals is in the consecrations of the white handled knife and the sword (black cock, magpie I think), and this is exclusively concerned with the Greater Key. There is no mention in the goetia, or the rest of the lesser Key of sacrifices of this kind. Its perfectly fine to add or subtract from things to suit the results your looking for, buts its not the only way. And different ways/methods work for different individuals. Savedow mixed a huge amount of the Greater Key with the goetia, while omitting and adding things of his own, with apparent success (according to his book anyway), as did crowley, obviously, but he never was able to conjure to physical manifestation, apart from one occasion when a faint outline of a shape appeared in the incense smoke. Each to their own.

Like Bym I would be interested to know your source for the information given.

Loki

[quote ='loki']
Hey Jaguar, I was wondering what Grimoire/text this information is taken, I don't have a copy to hand its sounds similair to the Black Serpent, (though this may be incorrect). Or have you come to work this way through trial and error?. And I'm assuming the spirits manifest physically for you.[/quote]

Yes, indeed. Nothing to worry about as long as you have ring for breathe, the charm with their sigil and hexagram, lighted incense, appropriate evocation schedule, and banish when finished. I have books with collected arts. It's not the book title it's the ritualistic form. iI would say Goetia.
[quote=loki] The ones in the goetia, or Greater key or another?[/quote]


To me they are the same but I would say Goetia indeed as The Goetia seems to be the original source where as the Keys have been added-subtracted according to practiconers. basically the same.
[quote name=loki]Do the preliminaries involve abstinence or any other special conditions such as daily prayers, ritual baths etc?[/quote]
Advisably they do say that one shouldn't consume meat, use candles from animal fat or have sex for a period but this in't neccessary. It does add enhancement though. Pretty much like the sacrifice.

As far as the the Keys of Solomon go the only reference to killing animals is in the consecrations of the white handled knife and the sword (black cock, magpie I think), and this is exclusively concerned with the Greater Key.[/quote]Well, I have a book that simply says Black magick that states that. Everything I've read states that. The idfference between me and the others up here is that they purchase the book that states Goetia and practice from that source. However, that's certainly an incomplete source.
That is how Theodore failed. I believe the lesser keys of solomon was written by a college professor anyway. Which means he was looking at it from a different stance anyway.

This was where Theodore went wrong. many cut & sift the Goetia or whatever to a more practical sense and this is what causes many to go wrong. If Theodore does what I stated and just practice until then, it will work. You mentioned using a white handled dagger, and I am familiar with that as well. That's more of a European influence. originally it was all metal and ideally self forged.

Theodore doesn't need the actual Goetic circle but he ADVISABLY should use a chalk cirle at simplest with hand crafted pentagrams with archangels in each pentragrams. This increases the strenbth of the evocation. Since he is working with Gamori, he COULD use ornage as orange is his color. But he must practice procedure all of this time until he carries it out.

This post has been edited by Jaguar: Nov 21 2007, 05:55 PM

@ Jaguar: "ring for breathe". Whats that. Do you mean the "silver" ring with anaphaxeton, michael etc written on??

"The idfference between me and the others up here is that they purchase the book that states Goetia and practice from that source. However, that's certainly an incomplete source" Whats your evidence for this statment??

" I believe the lesser keys of solomon was written by a college professor anyway" Again, some evidence of your conviction might be useful

Thanks Loki