Magikal Circle Creation On A Wooden Floor Options

What would you reccommend to draw a magical circle on a wooden floor that will wash off easy?????


will chalk do the trick?? or watercolors???

Dear 'norrinradd,'

From the Old System Magic perspective, I strongly advise against drawing your Circle of the Art on a wood or textile floor. It must be drawn upon the earth or a on concrete floor laid directly upon the earth. If an evocation to physical manifestation is conducted CORRECTLY, there will be a MAJOR difference of results between conducting it on the ground than on the upper floor of an appartment building. In the matter of degree, the spirit that will appear in the smoke of the Perfume of the Art will appear so real that you will think it is another physical being you are conversing with. The reason is because the earth stabalizes the whole operation and the instability of the spirit works against them (Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation, Lisiewski, pp. 116-117). In this work it is all or nothing--if you cannot find a place to conduct your Magic--tough luck! This is NOT the new age where so-called 'magicians' do whatever they want or feel like based on their 'feelings.' You are dealing with very percise laws in REAL Magic that you CANNOT get around. If you try, you will not only fail miserably, but never and I repeat NEVER get the FULL results that you are after. If you don't believe me, then read the posts on this forum where many disgruntled individuals try to give reasons (veiled excuses) for their 'partial results of no significant consequence' or their failures.

As for the chalk: it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest. Don't be like the new agers here who will tell you, 'water colors will be alright dude, plus they'll look pretty' or 'just get like some used chalk or something.' No. You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained. You cannot fail if these gradual processes are aligned correctly. Dealing these with entities is NO joke and is indeed dangerous--I WILL NOT bend my thinking here to please 'the masses' or ANYONE in this forum. Based on EXPERIENCE I know how these things work. In fact, I was once contacted by a man on this forum who wanted to casually work with demons in his UPPER room--he underwent massive psychological problems after my CRYSTAL CLEAR instructions to not 'do as you please.' Naturally, he had no control over the spirit and it never appeared like a real physical being to him. He 'changed' EVERYTHING around by mixing and matching Magical systems and did as he 'pleased' (he later confessed what a mistake he had made when he emailed). For all I know, he could be in a psychological ward as I write this post because I never heard from him again.

If I had to tell you anything, it would be to go to 8thmatrixpress.com and get away from this 'new age' miasma while you still can. It will merit you NOTHING and all your 'work' will be for naught.

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

Ah, I imagine any holy man of your chosen religious persuasion will suffice. If you are not catholic, then the blessing of a catholic priest is worthless. Also, the holy man must be genuine - plenty of priests and other holy men are not up to standard. A Rabbi or Guru or some such should suffice as well as a priest. Catholicism is no more the one true religion of G-D than any other religion.

I'd like to see Bym's suggestion on this, his is an opinion I trust. As for me, I've never cared to accomplish physical evocation just yet, waiting for the time I can build a proper room, although I have to agree that it should be done on the ground - not from experience, but rather simply from the observance than any magick of manifestation seems to work better when done with one's feet in contact with the earth.

peace

This is once again a part of the new age miasma that is controlling the so-called 'magical world' as we know it today--and I ask you all to take this into account. No, sir, you may NOT make up your own rules in Old System Magic--I speak to you from EXPERIENCE. You would be mixing systems once again--THIS is NOT permitted in this work. If, for example, you are working from the Heptameron (a Magical ritual with CATHOLIC elements)--you obtain that blessed chalk from a CATHOLIC priest! That's it. There are no more discussions. Otherwise, you are introducing duality and DOUBT into the operation. Though there is no 'recipe' for an evocation and every magician is 'different' what has been written has been written. The laws of Magic are NOT up to your 'feelings' or 'emotions.' You are misguided here on ALL counts. In this work, certain rules are layed out, filled with traps, but all is there. OBEY THE RULES! There is absolutely no 'picking and choosing' what you desire. If you want the full-scale RESULTS that is what you do. So many have realized FROM THIS FORUM that they failed for NOT doing as the Grimoires said. If the grimoire asks for the "blood of a cock that never trod hen" and you bring in your dogs blood into the operation, you are breaking the rules, young man and will achieve a partial result AT BEST (is this what you are REALLY after--ask yourself) 'slingshot effects,' or NOTHING at all!

Most Sincerely,

Mr. Curi

This is once again a part of the new age miasma that is controlling the so-called 'magical world' as we know it today--and I ask you all to take this into account. No, sir, you may NOT make up your own rules in Old System Magic--I speak to you from EXPERIENCE.

Mr Curi, I respect and applaud your experience with Old System Magic, I'm sure it has served you well, and that you've gone far with it. However, Norrinradd made no mention of the system of magick he was working with. Evocation may be an old art, but there are many ways to accomplish it.

You would be mixing systems once again--THIS is NOT permitted in this work. If, for example, you are working from the Heptameron (a Magical ritual with CATHOLIC elements)--you obtain that blessed chalk from a CATHOLIC priest! That's it. There are no more discussions. Otherwise, you are introducing duality and DOUBT into the operation.

Only from the perspective of a person of such a specific religious discrimination that they prefer to work within a religious system that they are at home with. if you were, for instance, luciferian, then chalk blessed by a catholic priest would be at odds. Again, you make the assumption somewhere, that Norrinradd is working from the Heptameron, apparently. If you're suggesting not to mix systems, then logically you ought to have asked what system our friend here was working with. It may be a system drawn together of his own making. While the laws of magick are immutable, there are many ways to enact them - you seems to believe that magickal law is dogmatic, while it in fact is not. The Dogma is only based on magical law - a set of actions and symbols which set those laws into motion. The laws of magick are not catholic in origin, nor do they originate with any religious dogma of mankind.

Though there is no 'recipe' for an evocation and every magician is 'different' what has been written has been written. The laws of Magic are NOT up to your 'feelings' or 'emotions.' You are misguided here on ALL counts. In this work, certain rules are layed out, filled with traps, but all is there. OBEY THE RULES! There is absolutely no 'picking and choosing' what you desire. If you want the full-scale RESULTS that is what you do. So many have realized FROM THIS FORUM that they failed for NOT doing as the Grimoires said. If the grimoire asks for the "blood of a cock that never trod hen" and you bring in your dogs blood into the operation, you are breaking the rules, young man and will achieve a partial result AT BEST (is this what you are REALLY after--ask yourself) 'slingshot effects,' or NOTHING at all!

My grasp of magickal law is quite thorough, thank you, and the role of the holy man - if the magician is not himself an ordained holy man of some faith - is representative of the quintessential As Above, So Below, representing the blessing of the Source, God, itself. If you are not catholic, frankly you ought to work with a magickal system within your own religious views, if you have them. While i have never sought anything but knowledge and very subtle help with causality from spirits, my experience has shown me that the Law itself is more important than the way it is enacted. It depends on where the faith of the individual lies - the the Law, or with some Dogma representing at best only a fraction of it in the first place.

Don't assume everyone is working by your system, or that yours is the only one that works. Magickal Law is the only constant throughout all human culture, and there are often slight variances as to the interpretation of that Law - however, the Dogma by which that Law is utilized and meted out among cultures, is radically different from region to region, and as you say, there is no one 'recipe' for evocation. You don't even have to follow a grimoire if you choose not to, and trial and error will - to the brave and hopefully properly prepared student - yield in time results just as well as any classical grimoire. You seem to be under the impression that these books have existed since the dawn of time, and that only be following one of them can you practice evocation. By all means correct me if I misinterpret your fanaticism.

The individual student's firm grasp of Magickal Law is all that is need to properly enact any and all acts of magick. According to that law, any blessed object, which the initiate recognizes and accepts the authority behind - including, for the hermetic student who follows the Law alone and merely recognizes the presence of the Law in religious Dogma, the blessing of any initiated holy man - is sufficient for any ritual requiring such an object.

Hence:

Ah, I imagine any holy man of your chosen religious persuasion will suffice. If you are not catholic, then the blessing of a catholic priest is worthless. Also, the holy man must be genuine - plenty of priests and other holy men are not up to standard. A Rabbi or Guru or some such should suffice as well as a priest. Catholicism is no more the one true religion of G-D than any other religion.

So stated because I make no assumptions about what system of magick Norrinradd is working with, or what his religious preference is. As I said above, let me repeat - if religious dogma is important to you, you should work with a system that is in line with your own religious preferences in the first place. If it is not important to you, then you are either relatively agnostic, with little religious focus in the first place, or simply a person who relies on a more personal connection with the divine - and in those cases, sometimes following the instructions will pan out, and sometimes it won't - then work with whatever grimoire you choose and follow the instructions. Atheist's simply don't believe in such things and besides - If you have no personal connection to a God, how can you expect to wield his authority to summon and command spirits?

So I'll appreciate it - as a fellow human being as well as a Moderator of this forum - if you will put a bit more thought into what you write here, and respond accordingly to what you read, with no assumptions made if at all possible. And when you do respond, I'll appreciate just a hint of respect, Sir, as you are not the only person to have successfully executed a magickal act and gotten results.

Most Sincerely,

Vagrant

Here is what I intended to write and indeed wrote (but was misinterpreted):

1. An operator must always obey and follow the rules from the Grammar of Magic from which he is working (no matter if he individual likes or dislikes them).

2. IF the operator is working from the Heptameron, he should obtain blessed chalk from a Catholic Church for the Circle of the Art since this is one of the requirements for it (and thus, cannot substitute it for any other material). Please read carefully next time young man, I wrote this only to serve as an example.

3. No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic. You understood me quite well here, moderator. This is not 'fanaticism' as you say. It is fact and the indisputable truth. No theory from your arm chair or that of any other in this forum or elsewhere will be able to defeat what I, and many others here have tested after many years and researched extensively. Those who turned to Old System Magic can attest to its pure might. They can also tell you how utterly destructive New Age fad Magic really is physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Those who work from the sacred texts can only complete an evocation on his or her terms (this is where the 'no recipe' portion comes in) IF the rules are adhered to and a proper subjective synthesis is built FIRST. And once again, yes, this form of Magic does work properly and is most recommended by me and my fellow collegues as being a CONSISTENT and RELIABLE source of results with the least amount of 'trouble' if the rules are obeyed. 'Making up' your own evocation just because you 'feel' good or 'right' about it and mixing systems will give you what essentially most new agers are after whether they admit it or not--nothing at all. Not to few have emailed me through this forum describing their story. I sympathaize with them because I endured the same thing for following the advice of 'theorists' with no real experience in this field--and with hardly enough results upon which I could 'hang my hat.'

4. The laws of Magic are like gravity and does not discriminate. Those who recognize the law but do not apply the proper principles in a working, are merely saying "Lord, Lord." No problem here--your resullts will always be partial or none at all. The amount of 'slingshot effects' people have received for tampering with this system and 'making it their own' as if they knew what ithey were doing is really just beyond me. The laws work if one applies them correctly and they do not if they don't. Trial and error is all a part of 'experimental magic' which I will not even begin to get into now. Suffice it to say that it is only after the apprehension of Magic that it would be most safe engage in this stage--never before. Here, I can teach you from real-world experience.

5. I cannot anticipate what bizzare conclusions others will come to based on what I write here. Therefore, none of my posts will be 'perfect' but I will make an effort to address the issue more specifically. And no, I am not the only person on this website to have attained results, I speak to the masses of men and women looking for answers. All I can say for now is that it has been my experience that Old System Magic has NEVER failed me or any of my collegues--EVER. I am trying to show my point of view so that others may come the the realization of what is really going in this so-called magical community of the current era.

Here is what I intended to write and indeed wrote (but was misinterpreted):

1. An operator must always obey and follow the rules from the Grammar of Magic from which he is working (no matter if he individual likes or dislikes them).

2. IF the operator is working from the Heptameron, he should obtain blessed chalk from a Catholic Church for the Circle of the Art since this is one of the requirements for it (and thus, cannot substitute it for any other material). Please read carefully next time young man, I wrote this only to serve as an example.

From the Old System Magic perspective, I strongly advise ....... As for the chalk: it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest. Don't be like the new agers here who will tell you, 'water colors will be alright dude, plus they'll look pretty' or 'just get like some used chalk or something.' No. You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained.

You were not misinterpreted, you spoke rather plainly and interpretation was very clear. You mentioned "Old System Magic Perspective", then stated implicitly, with no reference to the heptameron, that "it must be white, and blessed by a Catholic priest" as concerns the chalk. Your memory and perception powers leave me in doubt as to the competency of your magickal development. I would expect more cunning from someone so sure of themselves, and sure of their education and experience.

3. No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic. You understood me quite well here, moderator. This is not 'fanaticism' as you say. It is fact and the indisputable truth. No theory from your arm chair or that of any other in this forum or elsewhere will be able to defeat what I, and many others here have tested after many years and researched extensively. Those who turned to Old System Magic can attest to its pure might. They can also tell you how utterly destructive New Age fad Magic really is physically, psychologically, and spiritually. Those who work from the sacred texts can only complete an evocation on his or her terms (this is where the 'no recipe' portion comes in) IF the rules are adhered to and a proper subjective synthesis is built FIRST. And once again, yes, this form of Magic does work properly and is most recommended by me and my fellow collegues as being a CONSISTENT and RELIABLE source of results with the least amount of 'trouble' if the rules are obeyed. 'Making up' your own evocation just because you 'feel' good or 'right' about it and mixing systems will give you what essentially most new agers are after whether they admit it or not--nothing at all. Not to few have emailed me through this forum describing their story. I sympathaize with them because I endured the same thing for following the advice of 'theorists' with no real experience in this field--and with hardly enough results upon which I could 'hang my hat.'

You are able to offer no proof of your magickal development or success on this forum any more than I can offer to you. So the next time you call myself, or anyone else, an armchair magician, implied or directly, action will be taken. If you'd like to send your ghoulies after me to teach me a lesson, and I am unable to defend myself, then I will accept your status as 'better than'. Thus far you have not demonstrated anything more than academic knowledge yourself - you have demonstrated no depth of experiential understanding in the Law, or justified your claims any more than to say that your experience proves that it works. You might have followed bad advice in the past, regarding this field of evocation (though whether you reference 'old system' or simply the general field of evocation, is unclear) or perhaps you are one who simply needs a solid and completely worked out system in order to connect to the foreign spheres. You seem to imply that experimentation outside those boundaries will result in nothing, however, by implying that you may only do such magick according to these so called ancient texts. So, I can only conclude that your experiments have failed, if you have made them. Anyone can quote the text from a book.

In the same text from point 2, you actually hit on the point of contention straight on with "You must go out and start to build your subjective synthesis and add the EFFICACY to your work. By performing this task you will imprint something powerful in your subconscious mind, and add at the same time the sacerdotal office or quality to the item obtained." And then later seem to dispute the place of subjectivity in the magickal operation, while still acknowledging that not just the Heptameron is acceptable as a grimoire to follow. If more than one book will work, each with a different set of symbols, procedures, with only the very barest skeletons of process in common, what prevents the modern magician from building a system from the synthesis of said skeleton? Are the secret names of spirits and entities recorded in those books the limits of the firmament and beyond? Can no other names be deduced, divined, or granted from on high? Can the modern man only ever lack the inspiration and genius of the ancient magi who penned those 'ancient' books?

You, Sir, suggest by your words: "No, there is no other way to accomplish an evocation to physical manifestation and obtain the full results promised if one does not adhere to the ancient systems of practicing magic." That no new synthesis of magickal arte may be born after a certain period (which in many cases of the 'ancient systems of magic' is not so ancient as we are told) in human history, and speak of those old magicians as though their legacies are infallible and utterly complete the sum total of magickal knowledge to be discovered in the past or future.

You also seem to assume I buy into the "New Age fad Magic" - correct me if I am wrong on that perception - and dismiss me on the basis that I am not confined strictly to the old grimoires of the past. You are hardly the first, if it is true, to think that. You people often have much in common, poor attitude being perhaps the most common. As with them all, you simply quote dogma and the reasons you believe in it, with no explanation to actually justify that belief - simply that it works, and then deny that any other form of magick does. If your beliefs justify the truth of your word, and your experience justifies your belief, then can you deny that my experience justifies mine? And that so justified, my beliefs therefore confirm that which I put forth as true?

4. The laws of Magic are like gravity and does not discriminate. Those who recognize the law but do not apply the proper principles in a working, are merely saying "Lord, Lord." No problem here--your resullts will always be partial or none at all. The amount of 'slingshot effects' people have received for tampering with this system and 'making it their own' as if they knew what ithey were doing is really just beyond me. The laws work if one applies them correctly and they do not if they don't. Trial and error is all a part of 'experimental magic' which I will not even begin to get into now. Suffice it to say that it is only after the apprehension of Magic that it would be most safe engage in this stage--never before. Here, I can teach you from real-world experience.

And by "This System" You mean the heptameron, or old system magic in general? You are effectively suggesting that the system(s) cannot be 'tampered with', and therefore suggesting they are in themselves the sum of Magickal Law. More simply called, The Law, as it is no simply the Law of Magick, but the Law of All. I am not suggesting that one can simply read the Law from a book and then do magick, I said specifically, "The individual student's firm grasp of Magickal Law is all that is need to properly enact any and all acts of magick." I did not say, "The individual student's academic knowledge of Magickal Law..."

Grasping the patterns of structures - old grimoires included - is something that I do, a talent. I cannot speak for everyone, thus, in that regard, but I assure you, any tradition of magick has a structural basis which can be refitted to allow for a system of magick just as effective. It is not the system's dogmatic symbolism which does the work, it is the framework upon which that symbolism is enacted. That framework is established according to the formula which interpret and enact the Law, the Symbolism is Medium - it is Yesod, between Tiphareth and Malkuth. Even the names of spirits are simply combinations of universal principles emanating from the Monad, the Source, the Law expressing itself into form and function. I did not read the Law in a textbook, I confirmed my understanding with the education of those who came before me - I learned the Law by picking apart those old systems and watching very carefully in the course of my own practice, which included some failures, yes, but not for several years now.

5. I cannot anticipate what bizzare conclusions others will come to based on what I write here. Therefore, none of my posts will be 'perfect' but I will make an effort to address the issue more specifically. And no, I am not the only person on this website to have attained results, I speak to the masses of men and women looking for answers. All I can say for now is that it has been my experience that Old System Magic has NEVER failed me or any of my collegues--EVER. I am trying to show my point of view so that others may come the the realization of what is really going in this so-called magical community of the current era.

I will not doubt that Old System Magick has not failed you, or other people you know. I know plenty for whom it also works splendidly, and my brief experiences have also proven to me that what I have dabbled with works excellently. I don't doubt that old system magick works, but my experience has proven to me that it is not the only magick that does work. You say that you want to lead others to understand what is 'really' going on in this 'so-called magical community' of the current era. Please, be frank, tell us what is going on.

There are various reasons to be involved in magick. Some are content to gain things through magickal effort. Some are content to simply have obscure knowledge, putting it to no great use worth mentioning beyond their initial dabbling. Some simply enjoy the study of human interests through the ages. Some, endeavor to make magick a way of life, a passion, something to not simply practice, but to analyze, synthesis, and absorb thoroughly, and that for various reasons. Some believe it is a part of the key to transcendence, others simply obsess in a positive way, still others are simply predisposed to do so. Where a person falls into this scheme typically determines what he gets out of magick ultimately, and whether he is content to simply follow instructions and get stuff, or endeavor to take everything apart and peer into the minds of the men (and possibly women) who penned these old books. I fall into the latter category, and only rarely, in my early days (you may think me a child, but I started much younger than I am now, and no one learns faster than a child) have I done magick to get stuff. Mostly these days I divine, and live more and more accordingly to the Law with each passing season. I can't prove to you anything, nor do I have any reason to, but if you're going to make the assertions that you have made, then logically you ought to back them up, at least with reasoned words.

In the so-called 'new age' it is true there is a lot of dabbling, mixing, matching, and a whole lot of foolishness involved. Some of it harmless, some of it not so harmless, and some of it pure sophistry good for either confusing or stimulating the philosophical mind. But to assume that everyone not adhering strictly to 'old system magick' is involved purely in 'new-age' fluff, is inaccurate, insulting, and ignorant. In every era there are those who advance, those who stay where they are, and those who think they are advancing. The past centuries were no different than this one. Some views are outdated, some are valid, but limited, some are new, but invalid, and some are new and valid. Some are not new, but simply the regurgitation of history to redevelop the same outdated views with new clothes on.

The point is, old system magick is just that - certainly valid, but old system, and to suggest that there cannot be anything after what is old is simply ridiculous.

Sincerely

Vagrant

p.s. Norrinradd, I apologize for apparently steering this thread off course. I'll sort it all out afterwards, MODs, thank you, and Norrinradd, I do hope that you're gaining something from all this proselytizing jabber.

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Dec 23 2007, 02:57 AM