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 Capital Punishment, for or against....
Capital Punishment
Do you think capital punishment is justifiable?
Yea! Let'em burn! [ 8 ] ** [53.33%]
Nah! Let'em rot! [ 7 ] ** [46.67%]
Another lame topic? Dude get a life.... [ 0 ] ** [0.00%]
Which of the following death sentances do you think are humane?
Firing squad (any method of being shot to death) [ 7 ] ** [10.77%]
Stoning to death (rocks to the dome, not getting "stoned" to death) [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Hanging [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Electrocution [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Buring at the stake [ 2 ] ** [3.08%]
Drowning [ 3 ] ** [4.62%]
Forced Suicide (any method) [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Crusafixtion [ 2 ] ** [3.08%]
Torture (whatever your mind can come up with [ 3 ] ** [4.62%]
Leathal injection [ 8 ] ** [12.31%]
Beheading [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Blood letting (ie cutting the throat) [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Impailment [ 4 ] ** [6.15%]
Other [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
None of the above; anti-death sentance [ 5 ] ** [7.69%]
Do you believe that there are certain crimes that should only be punished by death?
Yea! Let those pedos hang! [ 8 ] ** [53.33%]
Nay! Let those pedos become bubba's girl in prison! [ 7 ] ** [46.67%]
Are there crimes you think should only be punished by other means than death?
Yea! The more pain the better! [ 9 ] ** [60.00%]
Nay! The humane action is a quick, maybe painful, death. [ 6 ] ** [40.00%]
Total Votes: 110
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Acid09
post Jan 15 2008, 06:51 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/8.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shoot2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cc_hang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chop.gif)

I never realized we had so many smilies that depict forms of punishment!

Ok so another boring already long and drawn out topic with little chance of being resolved on this site.... well its fight club people, pointless debate is what it's about.

Relatively simple topic, albeit a bit brutal. I am interested to know what you all think. As always I'll hold back my thoughts for awhile and see if there are any takers... Odds are I'll forget what I was thinking anyway.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 15 2008, 06:53 PM


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Acid09
post Jan 16 2008, 07:08 PM
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The gas chamber! I knew I was missing something....

QUOTE
It never fails, it's fast, and in my opinion if you're going to be an executioner you should face what you are doing directly, understand it viscerally

That I agree with. And while I would be willing to be an executioner if need be the one thing that would be on the back of my mind is, what if this guy is really innocent?

Taken from your post it sounds as though you lean more towards the rehabilitation philosophy rather than you just do your time, or are put to death. And rehab I think is a good thing for prisoners. The question is.. how far do we push rehab?

Here's a challenging question to you my friend: Would you support a prison system that used behavior modification to rehabilitate inmates? And what I mean is through any means society deems just and not the typical basic education, career developement, job placement, psycho-therapy and such I think that should be a given - I do mean things like gene therapy, lobotomy (modern science uses lazers rather than what amounts to an ice pick, so its not as gruesome or evasive), electro shock therapy (this treatment is also less evasive these days), drug therapy, bioprograming and so forth.

And example of how behavior modification is already in use is in the treatmet of pedophiles. Some can go through voluntary castration, either physical (they cut the nuts off) or chemical (the pedo recieves injections for life) for reduced sentances. Another is in the case of the mentally disturbed being forced to take medicine and go through regular therapy and mental assessments as a condition of probation.

Assuming such behavior modifications are voluntary, what would you say?


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Vagrant Dreamer
post Jan 17 2008, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE(Acid09 @ Jan 16 2008, 08:08 PM) *
Here's a challenging question to you my friend: Would you support a prison system that used behavior modification to rehabilitate inmates? And what I mean is through any means society deems just and not the typical basic education, career developement, job placement, psycho-therapy and such I think that should be a given - I do mean things like gene therapy, lobotomy (modern science uses lazers rather than what amounts to an ice pick, so its not as gruesome or evasive), electro shock therapy (this treatment is also less evasive these days), drug therapy, bioprograming and so forth.


Personally, I go with a sort of clockwork-orange viewpoint on behavioral modification - being modified to be good doesn't make one a law abiding citizen. More importantly, I think that in the long run - with the exception of the lobotomy - those modification therapies are not as effective as they are sometimes said to be. They can cause post-traumatic stress syndrome which can turn some criminals into other kinds of criminals. In a percentage, it would probably work out just fine, and they may even ultimately appreciate it. If a prisoner wants to agree, without any coercion - extended sentences, promises of harsher prison life, etc. - to such a therapy because he truly feels that his criminal behavior is compulsive and uncontrollable, then yes, such therapies could be a viable option for a percentage.

Some criminals, honestly, are just people with seriously warped and savage worldviews. Gang members constitute, according to the 2005 numbers, nearly 40% (less than half, more than a third) of the total prison population in the united states and the prisons it governs in the outlying islands (might as well call them colonies). Not sure what the current numbers are, but in two years they can't have changed that much. However, I don't honestly think that 'education' is the answer to that problem. You can't force a kid to stay in school, and inspiring them is difficult when their heroes and idols - in the community and in popculture - are telling them that this other kind of 'on the edge' life is more 'real'. And I have seen kids of every kind of culture in america, at least, following ideals like this. It's not an unsolvable problem, but I think the solution is something rather extreme.

It'll never take, and I realize it's an idealistic sort of thing, but I believe that the life-changing, neardeath experience, the face to face confrontation with one's own mortality, is the most psychologically and spiritually healing experience a human being can have, next to the experience of divine union - arguably a similar or the same experience depending on the point of view of either and/or both. If hard criminals were to be faced with an experience like this, I think they would be reformed more effectively. And, bleeding heart that I am, I do believe that all such behavior to harm others stems from inner pain, fear, and psychological disease.

More importantly, though, than the reform of individual prisoners, I think that an approach like that would be taken more seriously by the subcultures that produce such criminals - not all, obviously, but the bulk - who when released may produce a positive effect on their communities, assuming they return to them in some fashion. Again, I realize it's an idealistic point of view - I'm an idealist - and of course one that would be considered inhumane by mainstream society overall. Truthfully though, I think it's the most humane thing that can be done. But of course, it's also not as simple as just dropping them off a cliff and then catching them - and I doubt there are professional, criminal reforming shamans running around looking for federal employment.

I think our society is ultimately just ill-equipped to deal with the criminal element. We're judgmental, self-centered, more concerned with the welfare of the mainstream element of our total society, and prefer generally to just ignore the 'edge' elements and when they affect the central part, simply lock it away to keep it from infecting the 'healthy' areas. But, what society has ever dealt with the criminal element in an ultimately humane and positive way?

QUOTE
And example of how behavior modification is already in use is in the treatmet of pedophiles. Some can go through voluntary castration, either physical (they cut the nuts off) or chemical (the pedo recieves injections for life) for reduced sentances. Another is in the case of the mentally disturbed being forced to take medicine and go through regular therapy and mental assessments as a condition of probation.

Assuming such behavior modifications are voluntary, what would you say?


I think the previous part basically sums up my point of view... as to the mentally disturbed, that is a different case. Many theorists in criminal psychology believe that all criminal activity ultimately boils down to such mental disorders - from genetic justifications, to more simple brain imbalances that might be temporary or somehow chemically induced (simple in comparison to genetic disorders). I don't necessarily equate psychological imbalance with anything either genetic or neurological. The non-physical part of the mind, one's experience, beliefs, etc., can play just as much a part of the criminal mind. Ultimately, there's nothing you can do about that sort of thing, no amount of counseling, education, or intervention can really change those kinds of elements of the psyche. It takes a traumatic event of some sort to shake down the structure of the mind of an unwilling individual. And most criminals believe what they are doing is, not okay, but justified by some kind of natural law.

My thought in all of this is for the ultimate welfare of the individual, rather than society as a whole. It is a view that I know will never be shared by the majority of society, and in this regard I simply agree to disagree with the majority. Part of the problem with the system of justice, is that the individual in need of 'reform' or punishment, does not always feel he has been brought to 'justice' - oftentimes he's just angry that he got caught. Ultimately, there is a separation in his mind between morality and the right/wrong status of what he has done. Not universally, of course, but getting caught and incarcerated is part and parcel to the lifestyle. In my own neighborhood, prison is seen as a typical danger of 'street life', and is discussed casually like people living in the forest might discuss grizzly bears. I can't judge the perspective other similar elements of american culture have on prison, but i'm lead to believe it's fairly universal across that subculture.

So the question becomes - is reform really enough as it is? Behavioral modification is experimental at best, it's long term consequences are as yet really not concretely understood - for some they could work fine, for others they could be disastrous, both personally and for the society those people are reintroduced into. Execution is, at least in my opinion, simply morally wrong, and reflects poorly on the culture that supports it. Imprisonment can only last so long. Exploring physical and psychological methods of solving the criminal problem, almost everything seems ineffectual. So the only branch of the being left is the Spiritual side. But, our culture is not spiritual enough, over all - and I do not mean, of course, religious, as religious counseling is a part of the typical prison reform experience - to explore the spiritual experience more empirically; even though such studies have been made, and the spiritual experience has been explored enough to have found that there is an empirical, neurological, basis for such experiences. Our culture is, ultimately, just not compassionate enough to employ such findings to reform prisoners.

And of course, all of this isn't even considering that half the problem is that there are too many people in prison who really don't need to be there. But that is another discussion.

I would say that if individuals were to agree to try experimental behavioral modification therapies, then that is their right. And perhaps in doing something like that, we'll make further advances to make those therapies safer and more of a sure thing in the long term. Whether society will accept someone who has been so modified, that is another question, but I suppose that's part and parcel to the consequences of doing those kinds of wrongs.

peace


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