Evocation For Non-christians, How do Pagans do it? Options

So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?

So I've recently been reading Summoning Spirits. It's an interesting book, but something that struck me is that the rituals in it are as Jewish as the proverbial Bar Mitzvah.

This begs a couple of questions.

1) How do people who adhere to non-Abrahamic religions perform evocations?
2) Are these rituals intended to imply that Judaism genuinely is "the truth," in a supreme or objective sense, to a greater degree than that of other religious systems?

Well, there are more pagan ways to do evocation. If you want to work with grimoires, there are two points of view.

The first is that you must follow the grimoire to the letter, and more than that you must actually believe in what you're doing, therefore you have to make some kind of subconscious connection to the judaic and even catholic faiths.

That said, many practitioners believe that the spirits of the grimoires are objective spiritual entities who exist outside the physical planes. In this case, ultimately there is a formula that is used to summon them - and the differences between all of the grimoires suggests that there is not, really, only one way to do so.

So, I suggest looking into Hermetic Magick. Start at the root, with these books: Hermetic Magic and The Greek Magical Papyri.

A book that I also recently read, which turned out to be excellent although it is often, as far as my experience with it's 'followers' as it were, misinterpreted greatly, is here: Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation.

There are not many texts relating to pagan evocation, and many of the texts I have read that were more modern oriented turned out to be dead ends.

I think that building your own system of evocation requires a great deal of experience and knowledge, and of course the practice itself requires a great deal of dedication. The tendancy is to build a system which is expedient, simplistic, and quick - which evocation is not. It must be a formula which fully involves your consciousness, your being, it must exalt your mind and spirit, and make a connection with spiritual power that will allow for evocation to take place.

Also, there are two forms of evocation - physical evocation, which is concerned primarily with the manifestations of demonic entities and neutral, typically elemental, entities; and the evocation of intelligences. Physical evocation is for accomplishing material things, including in many cases the direct transmission of knowledge. Evoking intelligences does not require a physical manifestation - they can be communed with through some astral medium, such as a mirror or skrying bowl, or communed with directly if you have such a skill. Their purpose is to instruct or inform you, from my experience with them, which is personally my primary experience in evocation. While they can help you accomplish things as well, their purview is more along the lines of the necessary information to accomplish a goal, rather than doing it for you. Evoking angels is a similar thing, they will help you, instruct you, and bring higher currents of divine energy into your life, but they will not heed your beck and call. People may have differing views, ultimately much of it depends on your subconscious belief in what these various entities can do for you, because it is your consciousness they will use as a connection to this plane.

Also, while you may not agree with the religious doctrines of the Jewish and Catholic faiths, you do believe in divinity, yes? That there is ultimately a source from which all existence springs? Really consider your own basic beliefs, and then decide whether they are really so different from the beliefs of creation from these other points of view. Taking the dogma, the rituals of those religions aside. You don't have to be jewish or catholic to use the grimoires - but you do need to form a connection to those religions, and respect for them.

They don't imply that abrahamic are the supreme truth, but that the individuals that wrote them (they did not materialize from the source itself) followed them personally - and, given their practices, more than likely held a more mystical, non-mainstream view of them. Plus, as you may read in some of the books mentioned above, one of the reasons there is so much catholic imagery involved in the grimoires is because those that wrote them did so during a period where not being catholic was very dangerous. Many of the judaic grimoires more than likely did not survive that period intact, but some of them did.

peace

I suggest that you discover FIRST 'who' it is you are approaching in such work. It is the "God of the Grimoires" and is indeed one of the many facets to finding him. And yes, be careful with those who misinterpret Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation: these are New Agers. Know this: their explanations are like wheat which the wind blows away. Many times though, they are misinterpretations and THIS is the main difference--also, their ignorance comes from a lack of EXPERIENCE which is perfectly okay--they will learn--or won't. I have personally worked with someone from this forum and thankfully after much time, she came to the realization that she could properly evoke these beings using this way of approching God. You are not a 'quick fix' as it were, and if you think this is for you, then I'd happily answer any questions you may have. As Dr. John Dee said, "Divinity is as close to you as your hand and nearer than your breath." This is your starting point and we could always work with this belief system, but the rules are the rules and CANNOT be changed. Otherwise you will end up with MAJOR 'slingshot effects' and PARTIAL results. Try it for yourself. I am not wrong here. If the need should arise and you are SERIOUS about this, please contact me via the forum. I have dealt with individuals who were in your shoes from sacred-magick and they are now doing PHENOMENALLY well.

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 16 2008, 07:00 PM

Mr. Curi, Having read Lisiewiski's book, Ceremonial Magick etc., twice just recently - and I do not mean at leisure - it comes to my attention that there appears to be an aspect of his book that you are either ignoring, or are less concerned with given your own preference for the grimoires, and that is the process and application of Subjective Synthesis. Lisiewiski states implicitly in his book - and after having read through it, his website as well - that the practitioner may, and in fact ultimately must, develop his own magickal system that will work for him exclusively. Even in the use of the grammars of old system magic it isn't enough to simply follow the directions. Every tool, every verse, the place, purpose, and name of each spirit must be fully comprehended and grasped - this is according to his text specifically.

I was certain that no serious practitioner would make the sorts of claims that you suggested previously in other threads. While the grimoires offer a readily available method of evocation to physical manifestation, which is of course perfectly true, and while it is true that the heptameron is an excellent manual for the experienced beginner, that is, someone of modest means who is generally new to this particular field of magick, it takes no measure of interpretation to understand that the author himself understands that subjective synthesis is the key element to any magickal work.

This means, if you cannot accept the divinity of the sacred names of the abrahamic religions, if you cannot believe in that divinity, for whatever reason - and I do personally believe that those things can be viewed objectively, with no amount religious fervor, as vibratory formulas specific to no particular faith in and of themselves - and if your mind cannot be exalted by invoking the names of the Abrahamic God, of Jesus, etc., then you will not be able to bring about the necessary state of consciousness, and the grimoires, no matter how much someone tells you they will work if you follow the instructions, will not work for you. This is not a line of thought specific to Lisiewski, either. I believe there is no small amount of ego in his work, personally, but that aside, he does not suggest at all that old system magic is the most or more effective than any other magic - in fact, he cites true Hermetic Magic as the most pure and undiluted magical system available to us. Hermetic Magic is perfectly suitable for the pagan-inclined practitioners, and from it one can absolutely fashion a system of physical evocation, as this practice has been known in ancient cultures well before the advent of the catholic and judaic grimoires so popular with those magicians who practice evocation today. Such a system is very loosely defined within that tradition itself, as is much else thus far owing largely to the limited literature available on the subject, however, with careful study and experience with the essential basic practices that have been uncovered, this systems opens itself up beautifully to the earnest student. This is not 'new age theory' as you so snidely suggest so often, but a matter of my own personal Experience.

As I have said before, not everyone will want to work with the old system grimoires. As I have also said before - and which I know now is supported by your favorite author - it is the system, the law, and the connection one has to the symbols, the rituals, that enact those laws, which is most important for the individual. With that connection, and that understanding, one can erect a system of magic that will work perfectly for them, even if it bears only the skeletal resemblance to other systems of magic - including grimoire work. What I will concede, is that fashioning a workable, practical system of physical evocation (and I will maintain that astral evocation and the communion with entities is a far easier thing, and in many cases just as useful) is very difficult for someone not generally experienced with evocation, and I think requires of them a much more in depth study of the specific magickal laws enabling that magical action, on an intellectual and philosophical level, than other fields of magickal practice.

That is not to suggest that a practitioner can simply fashion such a system haphazardly - certainly the authors of the old grimoires were well versed in their own theology, kabbalah, and magickal theory generally, and were devout in their mystical faith (whether it was in fact judaism or catholicism, or that was simply the nature of the times they lived in) - but that it can be done, it is possible. No, it may not be the safest path, but no serious field of development and discovery is. The fact of the matter is, though, according to the sepher yetzirah, the 22 consonants of the hebrew alphabet - and it can be agreed that all the names of the spirits in the grimoires can be transliterated into hebrew - can be combined in any way to make words, names, which on the astral and causitive planes constitute living forces - spirits, if you will - as the 22 original intelligences are understood to be those which compose all ideas in creation. (that is, ideas of the One Living God, rather than simply mortal ideas, in case it needs to be made clear, I am not aware of the depth of your own education in kabbalistic mysticism). In the old hermetic system, there is even greater depth given to the 22 original ideas. While I am not suggesting that the pracitioner could simply use the same ritual format to evoke any name created by a haphazard combination of these Ideas - again, certainly the authors of the old grimoires knew what they were doing, and divined the names, offices, and purviews of those spirits with purpose and scientific knowledge of the kabbalistic system - it is not beyond the individual to accomplish the necessary work to do this himself.

In conclusion, my suggestion of creating one's own system of evocation was not meant in any kind of flippant or new age manner, and I believe I made that clear enough, though certainly the casual reader accustomed to taking only a cursory read over the text before him, might make that assumption mistakenly. You don't strike me as such a person, though of course I don't know you personally, but none the less it obviously needs to be said.

I believe that you, like Lisiewski, seem to be taken by the idea that because the modern day magickal associations - such as the Golden Dawn, et al., the advent of chaos magick, etc. - tend towards a 'new agey' point of view, that all modernist magick is therefore new age rubbish, and that any exploration and development of old magick into a modern synthesis is also pointless and vain. I, and many successful practitioners reaping the benefits of such exploration and successful synthesis, must disagree thoroughly.

@Petrus,
All points of view are valuable to some degree, even those that can be misleading - when you develop a firm grasp of magickal theory, not only do the grimoires and other magickal texts literally come alive as you read them, but you also quickly begin to realize that even in the new age doggerel that most certainly does infect the average modern magickal view, when it is there, the truthful bits make themselves known, and you will be surprised the places and people in whose company you discover them.

peace

I have neither ignored nor misunderstood a single word of Dr. Lisiewski's Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation book. I think you have misunderstood what he meant by the subjective synthesis becasue perhaps you've never actually tried his method out for yourself--and again all 'power' to you if you haven't. You still think you can 'do what you want' and this is NOT so when it comes to true Magic, or in this case the Heptameron (since this is the example he uses in the book). You see, it is not until the subjective synthesis is FULLY reached AFTER the stages of knowing, understanding, comprehension and apprehension that one can attain this stage--it is NEVER before--this is how the New Agers like to interpret this.

It is BUILT UP prior to this attainment in your entire being, but the Magic will only work on the practitioners terms AFTER THIS (which is one of the reasons I helped out the young lady come to terms with her belief in "God" FIRST)--but this in NO way means the rules can continued to be 'changed'--in fact, you one will KNOW exactly what to do under a given circumstance or grimoire, and really, they will not change the rules. One must adhere to the Grimoires to the letter and THEN something will happen in which one (in this case, the practitioner) will be able to adhere to his own guidelines of belief that will work for him. And oh yes, my friend, the serious practitioners WILL make the claims I have made in past threads--perhaps you don't know who they are but they are out there--but to write that they wouldn't is simply wrong.

You'd NEVER be able to understand what he meant unless you tried it out for yourself! Theory is one thing. Application is another. You have MUCH to learn yet despite your noble efforts at answering questions in very logical and proficient ways--I was once there, but no longer--I do not need to "sell" the ideas, they "sell themselves"--as my being contacted again and again on this forum has PROVEN. Sometimes the individual can attain things by him or herself but other times they need help to understand how they can approach the God of the Grimoires--in fact, this usually takes no more than a one hour talk with the person to get them started on the right foot--but not everyone is the same, from my experience. Yet another thing I feel the need to bring up with you again and again is that psychic laws are like gravity--it's not up to you to determine how they work! This is utter nonsense. You either fall or you do not. What you can do is MANIPULATE these laws based on the proper development of the subjective synthesis: and THIS will bring about that success in your work.

The Western system of Magic COMES from the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians--so I have no complaints here. What new age contemporaries are 'advocating' is really experimental Magic before the development of the subjective synthesis--this CAN be dangerous. I too have tried it out--and it CAN work, but I am defending the proper use of the Grimoires here. I am not here to mislead you or anyone else, just to tell you what WORKS EXACTLY as it was laid out in the grimoires--I am not wrong.

Mr. Curi

This post has been edited by Mr. Curi: Jan 17 2008, 05:56 PM

I think you have misunderstood what he meant by the subjective synthesis becasue perhaps you've never actually tried his method out for yourself

When I first heard from you, I was skeptical about Lisiewski's work simply because of the claims you made. Having read it, I have already experienced the process of subjective synthesis as he describes it. He did not invent that process, he wrote about it, and did very well at that. However, his book does not cover what I would consider 'advanced' magickal technique. He describes a general set of very good rules regarding working with grimoires specifically, with excellent advice for the Heptameron in particular. And While I certainly will probably work with the heptameron as he suggests, in time, for no other reason really than that it is a curious grimoire that is indeed very different from others I have been familiar with, I am in no wise unfamiliar with exalted consciousness, and for that matter altered consciousness in general (I do not mean drugs, here). Again, Lisiewiski did not personally resurrect true magickal knowledge from it's grave.

You still think you can 'do what you want' and this is NOT so when it comes to true Magic, or in this case the Heptameron (since this is the example he uses in the book).

I have yet to understand where you get that from in the first place. Not once have I suggested such a thing as that the magician may simply do as he pleases in order to bring about any kind of magickal effect. Thus far your interpretation of my words leads me to believe that you lack a fundamental respect for all practitioners not enamored of your personal idol. I have not suggested mixing systems and grimoires, nor have I suggested altering the fundamental rules of the grimoires in any way. The nearest I can see is that I have suggested that as objective entities, the spirits of the grimoires may be evoked through other means - not in altering the grimoires themselves, but in applying other formulas entirely. And I have not suggested that these formulas can be discovered or synthesized in any haphazard way.

You see, it is not until the subjective synthesis is FULLY reached AFTER the stages of knowing, understanding, comprehension and apprehension that one can attain this stage--it is NEVER before--this is how the New Agers like to interpret this. It is BUILT UP prior to this attainment in your entire being, but the Magic will only work on the practitioners terms AFTER THIS (which is one of the reasons I helped out the young lady come to terms with her belief in "God" FIRST)--but this in NO way means the rules can continued to be 'changed'--in fact, you one will KNOW exactly what to do under a given circumstance or grimoire, and really, they will not change the rules.

I would not generalize in such a way as to say that all 'new agers' will make such an assumption. And, I believe that this is basically exactly what I said in a previous post on this thread:

Even in the use of the grammars of old system magic it isn't enough to simply follow the directions. Every tool, every verse, the place, purpose, and name of each spirit must be fully comprehended and grasped - this is according to his text specifically.

Again, you have taken my words as somehow flippant, interpreting 'fully comprehended and grasped' to mean "studied peripherally" somehow. Again, your general lack of respect shows itself. I'm not demanding respect, just an objective read. Your own very obvious bias appears to color your interpretation of everything I say.

Further, I have never suggested changing the fundamental rules of magick. I have advocated a study and apprehension of Magickal Law as the fundamental basis of all magickal practice. You are continually overlooking and ignoring that.

You'd NEVER be able to understand what he meant unless you tried it out for yourself! Theory is one thing. Application is another. You have MUCH to learn yet despite your noble efforts at answering questions in very logical and proficient ways--I was once there, but no longer--I do not need to "sell" the ideas, they "sell themselves"--as my being contacted again and again on this forum has PROVEN.

Unless the book in question covered topics already familiar to me by experience. In fact, his book confirms a lot for me, especially his axioms, and his description of the 'slingshot' effect, something that I learned about the difficult way several years ago, understood more completely just three years ago, and now no longer have to negotiate around. If I am answering any kind of enquiry based on theory, I state so implicitly. You seem convinced that I am some kind of armchair magician. I'm not entirely surprised, I get that often enough. Usually from those that underestimate anyone under a certain age range. I have also been contacted privately by members of this forum - if that is proof that ideas sell themselves, then I suppose I harbor the same proof. I think that is a poor way to view it, however. If you make yourself available and offer your advice freely, to be taken up on your openness is to be expected. I won't disagree I have much to learn - but so do we all, and so we always will.

Sometimes the individual can attain things by him or herself but other times they need help to understand how they can approach the God of the Grimoires--in fact, this usually takes no more than a one hour talk with the person to get them started on the right foot--but not everyone is the same, from my experience.

Agreed. And I do think that most every practitioner should be able to find sympathy with that view of divinity, and be able to work with a grimoire. I simply don't believe - not in a theoretical sense, but because of my own experiences and those of my more experienced and trusted colleagues - that one must work with the classical grimoires in order to practice evocation. Not that those grimoires can or should be altered in any way, but that they are not the only possible route to evocation. The advanced system of Kabbalah itself, permits a formula for evocation. Hermetic Magick offers a formula. They are not as clearly laid out, they are not as simple as that system given in the Heptameron, but the fact remains, that there are other methods. And in the end, the magician must be able to fully absorb him/herself in the formula if they are to do such a practice - and that is going to be different for everyone. I know many people who worked with the Necronomicon successfully, for instance - it's presentation of divinity and anti-divinity, of spirits to be evoked, etc., test them but give them no problems. For me, it was a horrible exercise first in futility, then in forces that did not agree with me - or which I did not agree with, no matter how much I tried to fully assimilate that cosmology.

Yet another thing I feel the need to bring up with you again and again is that psychic laws are like gravity--it's not up to you to determine how they work! This is utter nonsense. You either fall or you do not. What you can do is MANIPULATE these laws based on the proper development of the subjective synthesis: and THIS will bring about that success in your work. The Western system of Magic COMES from the ancient Greeks and the Egyptians--so I have no complaints here.

Again, I have not suggested that psychic, or more particularly, that universal laws - magical, spiritual law, whatever you'd like to term it - can be altered. In fact i have explicitly stated just the opposite. Why you continue to insist that I must be instructed in this fact, I simply do not know.

What new age contemporaries are 'advocating' is really experimental Magic before the development of the subjective synthesis--this CAN be dangerous. I too have tried it out--and it CAN work, but I am defending the proper use of the Grimoires here. I am not here to mislead you or anyone else, just to tell you what WORKS EXACTLY as it was laid out in the grimoires--I am not wrong.

Again, I have not suggested once that one should use the grimoires improperly, or that the grimoires don't work, or anything along that line of reasoning. Why you insist on focusing on this phantom assertion, again, I am utterly at a loss. I agree that the new age systems of magick available en mass to the general populace far outweigh truly valuable works of literature on magickal practice, and that they insist on a system of magick that is extremely 'instant gratification'. Never, in the length of my time here on this forum, ever, once, have I suggested anything of the sort. I have always advocated, with a somewhat different terminology, the study and development of the self, the development of the senses both material and subtle, and the study, interpretation, comprehension and union with those subjects, before effectively doing magickal acts. None of it is arm-chair 'theory' but the fruit of my own experiences. And while my experience with evocation specifically is only a few years old now - as I spent the first 10 years of my purposeful development understanding, experiencing, and ultimately studying my natural talents with energy work and perception - I have never worked directly from a grimoire, with the exception of the Necronomicon and that briefly; however it has not prevented me from getting results, getting what I needed (I do not call on spiritual beings to attend my petty 'wants'), and procuring me the instruction that I needed to further my education and make my own work more effective.

I too encountered a lot of danger at first. It taught me well. On this particular subject at hand, I am suggesting that, according to my EXPERIENCE, the practice of evocation, can be pursued, and effectively cultivated and applied, without using the grimoires at all.

And frankly, you sir appear to be far to involved with your crusade against the 'new age' to deliver an objective, clear, utilitarian message almost at all. I have not seen one post from you which simply states your point of view and experience explicitly, without taking an aside to remind us all that your view is specifically in opposition to the 'new age'. You could simply put such a comment in your signature, and focus on the task at hand. There are many points of view here on this forum. Not all of them will agree with one another. Some of them are from wiccans, chaoticists, ritual magicians, spiritualists, theosophists, and every shade of practitioner from the new age crystal hugger to the devout priestly mystic. The gamut from theory to experience runs wide here. But you seem to have approached this place under the assumption that everyone not specifically sympathetic to you experiences is a 'new age' flake.

I am not defending the new age trends, and I never have here. Mine is simply a path that understands consciousness to be central to the operation of magick, of all kinds. Consciousness is where I began my path, not ritual. I built from a different direction that apparently you did. That our two paths do not align specifically, does not invalidate either one. All I ask of you here, is that you state your view objectively, as an experienced opinion. It does not have to be in opposition or disagreement with any other opinion offered, and if you do so disagree, and would like to say so - take a better assessment of the individual you are initiating a debate with. To enter into such a debate with a rather apparent lack of respect is reprehensible. I have afforded you respect in all of our dealings here, and have not called your experience into question because frankly I don't know about it - similarly, you don't know the first thing about what I have experienced.

I too like the viewpoint 'Vagrant Dreamer' established, but I needed to correct his thinking because like you 'altpath' he does not have those years of experience that will in time, make his answers more substantial and NOT just in theory.

I suppose the above covers this comment as well. To reiterate again, you make an assumption here obviously based on my age. I have nothing else to say on that point - if you are the kind of person to so quickly make such assumptions based on such a thin bit of information, it offers onlookers far more insight into your own self than I think you realize.

'Petrus': There are many ways to God, and if you obey the rules of the ancient Grimoires FIRST you will find him on your own terms--NOT the other way around as some would have it.

This, is the most biased thing I have seen you say here.

I think most people will agree rather universally, that you do not have to find your way to god through the Grimoires, or even 'magick' as it is commonly viewed, at all. Just obeying the rules of the grimoires does not in any way grant the individual an experience of God. You can follow the instructions like a handbook all you want - you may get some inner sense of serenity or development from some grimoires by following their preparatory practices, but obeying those rules does not introduce you to God in and of itself. I would say that many people have had divine experience - myself included - without ever picking up a grimoire for more than a cursory glance. You can find God on your own terms before working with the grimoires. To suggest otherwise is frankly just an ignorant suggestion. I certainly expect more of you than that, so please, clarify this particular statement, for my benefit alone if not for the general benefit of the populace.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jan 17 2008, 11:35 PM

If Lisiewski's book does not cover an 'advanced' 'magickal' techinique, then I don't know what in the world it is! Obviously you have yet to learn of its power through your experience. Very few, young man, very few are ready to jump into an Evocation to Physical Manifestation. So I thoroughly disagree with this statement--you are mistaken here (which is okay, because you don't know yet). And yes, the author did resurrect Magical 'knowledge from his grave' as you put it because he brought forth information unheard of in the 'New Age' movement based on his being taught by Frater Albertus, Isreal Regardie, and a real System of Magic HE hammered out for the past 40 + years of his dealings with the Occult world (and I don't mean just in this ONE book, but in his other writings as well). It stayed buried for a long time (but not hidden from those who knew where to look). So now, it is available for the public to properly use these techniques that DO NOT stand up to the new age garbage that some are being fed and the so-called 'results' they are getting. There is also very little you know about the man himself and what he has been through to bring Magic back to its true place in our world.

Alright, you're not going to change the rules? We'll find out based on the results you receive! Self-honesty plays a great part in this all, and if you 'do what you want' then I promise the following WILL occur inevitably: you will receive partial results (as I have stated before in my other threads) and the REAL results will not come for YEARS. I don't mean five to ten, I mean twenty to forty or more. Furthermore, as one plans to move away from this new age mentality, and dabbles with Old System Magic (AND ASSUMING this is done CORRECTLY), then you will get LITTLE slingshot effects and FULL results. The other routes to evocation will never work as well as in the Old Grammars of Magic (if you obey the rules)--you're setting yourself up for a WORLD of trouble if you do. The other methods of evocation you mention are what make up the Western Tradition of Magic! It is from here on out that the work begins.

Am I on a crusade to deliver an 'objective, clear, utilitarian message' against the new age, as you write? ABSOLUTELY, YES! They offer nothing of true consequence--as I know you WILL discover--it will take time, but you'll see. You have a 'know it all attitude' so be careful--you are WAY to green at this now, but it will not last forever with you. When and if you decide to try out Lisiewski's method, in the way he describes and TO THE LETTER, you will then be drawn into something else--and THIS is what I will not write about here.

I NEVER ONCE suggested that the ONLY way to God was through the Grimoires this is a misunderstanding yet again on your part 'Vagrant Dreamer'--OF COURSE you can find him beforehnad--BUT if one follows the rules of the Old Grammars of Magic you will discover that part of you that will form a link to the Divine no matter what the cost.

In my opinion, you are either a new age dilettante or you are not. That's just the way it is. You are either reading this or you are not. Old System Magic is a pathway traveled by few, but it really is the best way. To tread on this or that Magical system is actually dabbling. This is what I am advocating and I'm afraid that you are changing your logic to better fit your opinions at the present time and therefore, I do not see consistency in your posts. You make assertions that you later cover up by writing, "I never suggested this or that." My friend it is in defending yourself, that something in you will clear up--I happily already see is already happening with our heated arguments, and I am quite glad you read "Ceremonial Magic and the Power of Evocation." In other words, your posts with me are actually morphing, or changing for the better. You will do just fine in the work that lies ahead for you in the future.

Mr. Curi