The Truth About Sin, Sinfulness Options

I believe the truth about sin, however controversial it might be, should be known.

People from different religious tenets tend to complain about how sinful human beings are.
They say things, like "Adam ate the forbidden fruit and separated us from God".
They say things like, "man and God cannot exist together unless sin is removed, as God is holy".
They also say things like, "It's mans fault, that there is evil in the world"
They say, "God is perfect, and purely good"

I believe that as harsh as it might be, God is the real sinner. God is the reason we could do evil.
God is the reason humans have free will. God is the reason detestable things take place in this
universe. If it wasn't for God's evil, things like "babies falling from buildings, cars wiping out in
bad weather, hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc" wouldn't happen, in any circumstances.
God is the reason behind demonic activity. God is the creator of all things good and evil,
and therefore is responsible for all human evil. We have him to thank for all our life's woes.

If human beings were responsible for evil in this universe, we'd have to be some pretty bad dudes.
Why is it human civilization, is always accepting blame for the faults of God?

It's not our fault that God chooses to create a universe full of moral ambiguity.

Blame the Most High God!

Ok, let me try to explain GOD and sin from the prespective of experience and a LOT of study. I don't expect that I can explain this very well. It is kind of a catch 22. You must experience GOD before you can TRULY understand. First I'm am going to use Absolute in place of GOD. GOD has to much baggage. If you can understand this concept intellectually (if I can present it properly) then you are 1/2 way there.

Form the posts and I have just skimmed them I get the impression that we are still locked in the Fairy Tale GOD. We are still hanging on to the notion of an entity that sits on a cloud and takes notes. That is horse S..., think about it, childish and ..... well impossible. But he is omnipotent..... I have met other spirits with great power so why not on with super power. No sorry, there are but they are not GOD. There may even be entities that claim to be GOD. There is no big Boss per se. There is one big entity however.

Sin..... no such thing. There is Karma. I believe it is extremely necessary to understand Karma. This was the goal of Theosophy They believed that if every one understood Karma then it would solve ALL the problems of the planet. I believe they were on the right track but people are people. Some just don't give a crap. The give out 10 free lessons mostly having to do with Karma which is excellent.

Home page:http://www.blavatsky.net/ Home Study Course link:http://www.blavatsky.net/member/course.htm

I recommend taking a look at it it is total free and worth looking at.

So back to GOD or the Absolute:
EVERY religion (catholic, jewish, islam, etc.) tells you the truth how who ever wrote the literature couldn't explain it either at least not to FULL understanding.
Catholic: Where is GOD? Answer GOD is every where. They do mean that there is no where that GOD isn't.
Islam: There is nothing but God (Allha) and Mohammed is his prophet

That is all you need to know. So lets think this out a bit. People hear it but don't think about it. They don't want you to either. When I was in school they had a teachers strike so FL in there infinite wisdom fired them and hired substandard teachers. I went to the Catholic School as they hired all the great teachers. Hey if ya have to put up with it ya might as well learn something. Ok Bill is 16 Day one religion class:
Father Smith We are going to study the Catechism (sp).
Student: We are already confirmed why?
Note: Catechism: series of questions to which they provide the answers. You need to know them to get confirmed, highest sacrament you can get until marriage or priesthood.
FR: WE need to understand the Catechism.
FR: 1st question.... Where is GOD?
Bill: Thinking I hate the Catechism 1st question easy answer. He's using a seating chart, put up you hand Dumb A.. you won't get called on for the hard ones.
Raise your hand... hand shoot up.... no one else.... first day everyone is shy.
Fr: (Looking at his seating chart) Master S.
Bill: GOD is everywhere!
FR: Correct next question.
Bill: Freaking out as he just actually listened and realized what he just said. Hand shoot up
Fr: What? you answered correctly.... next question.
Bill: Yes but I have a question about the question.... If GOD is everywhere do you mean by that that there is NOWHERE where GOD isn't?
FR: Yes exactly. Next Question
Bill: No Fr. I I'm starting to freak out because that would mean that Mr. Victorio here is GOD....
FR: Now starting to freak....noooo next question
Bill: No I'M NOT DONE.... that also means mr Kearnan is GOD..... You are GOD (Priest Freaking out NO I'm just a Priest) I am sitting on GOD writing with GOD on GOD. Please Help me here.
FR: That is incorrect......
Bill: NO Fr. If he is everywhere and we are not GOD then explain.
FR: Got to the office you are disrupting the class.
Bill: Ok, I am not trying to disrupt I need to understand and you are supposed to explain..... (FR TO THE OFFICE see the Dean)
The Dean was an Irish Priest about 26 yrs old and a sadist. Mom had had a run in with him and he was scared to death of my Mother, so I was not afraid)
FR F: Leaning on the counter in the office looking bored.... What are you doing here Master S. Are you ill.
Bill: No Fr. I got kicked out of class.
FR: You? (I was good usually) What ever for? Which Class?
Bill: FR. Smith's Religion class. I asked a question and he could not explain it.
FR F: Well I am a priest will answer the question, what was it.
Bill: I know the answer, the question was Where is GOD?
FR F: And your answer?
Bill: Everywhere
FR F: Correct what is the problem?
Bill: GOD is everywhere which means that there is nowhere that GOD isn't.
FR F: Yes, is the man Daft?
Bill: Well that means that she is GOD (pointing at the secretary typing on GOD with GOD, Sitting on GOD, you are GOD and Leaning on GOD, I am GOD also
(All the time FR F is saying NO NO NO.
Bill: Then Explain, because if that is true why do we need you and the church?
FR F: Standing up straightened this point the Secretary, stopped typing and is starring back and forth at me and the priest. Nice Day out isn't it?
Bill: yes beautiful but...
Fr F: I think a study hall is needed why don't you enjoy the rest of the period in the court yard Studying for the next class I will be watching.
Bill: BUT FATHER I am freaking out here please explain
FR F: Study Hall in the Court Yard I'll be keeping an eye on ya.
Bill: OK (that was Friday)
Monday Religion class
FR S: I hope you all brought you Bibles (looking at me) If not you will be disciplined is required for the class. We are studying the Bible as History
Bill: Father what Happened to the Catechism?
FR S: Glaring at me... THE BIBLE AS HISTORY
Bill: Good, I love history. Made a B for the class.

Sorry, I tell stories I have had a weird life and have lots of them.

30 yrs later:
I was invited to take part in a Shamanic Ceremony (I was not into shamanism at the time) it involved a grass from Australia... don't know what it was.
Another Long story but here is the short of it:
There were 12 of us. I watched as each took turns. One hit, on the floor, there for a few min. Then they got up. Some came up as gods Kali was one. I reconsider instantly(I had never studied the Hindu deities sop I found this weird yet profound) there was this sacredness that came with her that could not be denied There were others that came with other people. So I took my turn I was last or one of the last. I took the hit. There was no fighting it you were going down. I did try (wrong thing to do) and as I feel I fell through the layers of existence At some point I reached out to something BIG mistake. I locked in on what ever it was and learned EVERYTHING about it, the positive and the negative, swinging back and forth from Total orgasmic Bliss to hellish Fear I finally found myself in peace in nothingness. I became aware that I was but there was nothing else. Then I heard a loud resounding I AM. There was this explosion and the universe formed before me and I knew ALL and EVERYTHING I had achieved objective consciousness I understood not only intellectually I actually the universe. I was GOD. This brought back all the stuff from FR S's class and put it together me. We are ALL GOD because there IS NOTHING ELSE but GOD.... Mohammed may or may not be his prophet.

I had been blowing out to GOD in Meditation before all this. The 1st time scared the crap out of me, but I was with a friend who had already had the experience with the ceremony so he felt it and was there. The calmed me down. For years after I could take people there and it was my goal teach as many possible. I did not have much success most of the time it scared the crap out of them, and I could not explain it.

Emerald Tablets Of Thoth the Atlantean: The one in the many and the many in the one.
Another example this fact has been in plane sight and multitudes have told us but you can't get it until you experience. You can only think you get it.

So there is no sin, there is negative and positive for one that is how our limited minds interprets. Everything is subject to karma so there is no sin pre se There is only consciousness THere is no magick, there is no you and yet there is. We have the solid because of an agreement. It is all consciousness nothing else.

Ok well that is my thoughts truncated.

There is better explanations out there most have probably seen What the BLEEP, Down the Rabbit Hole edition, helps. I would suggest watching that a few times. Then watch Atom to Cosmos. You can watch Atom to Cosmos in full on You Tube and others. You can buy both also, amazon has them. Atom to Cosmos it a must for a serious meditator.

None of this negates your work. I would also like to call your attention to Initiation Human and Solar, very interesting. Looking at what many are doing and about here I would think this book by Alice Bailey will jog some past memories.

So an the subject of sin look into Karma..... there is more to it then is usually understood. Understanding Karma will open a lot of incites and understanding it may change your work. The Free course is a great place to start. To have a more realistic view of GOD then What the Bleep and Atom to Cosmos, to understand where you are going with all this Spiritual stuff Alice Bailee will help (not easy reading but that doesn't seem to be a problem with this group).

All this will probably cause you to re-think many things. I think it will give you understanding but you need to keep going until there is realization. They are 2 different aspects. The only thing you may lose is your misconceptions. believe me you want to become more magickal understand these concepts until you realize them. You will really be able to Go with the FLOW. Be a partner with the universe or the Absolute (GOD if you must) your life will improve because you are not fighting anything.

My point of view, I don't think I did a great job of explaining it but I hope you will look into the 4 or 5 books and films I mentioned. The hardest thing is letting go of our concepts for what ever reason. Please if you want to control people and entities.... well this stuff may not be for you. If you want to get on with things as I do because I am old and over most of what I see around me this stuff may help.

Sorry about the spelling got tired of correcting the corrections it made.

Krell

Krell makes good points. I like to think of things in terms of comparisons - as above, so below.

In the world of single cell organisms, bacteria eat one another, they steal one another's food, etc. Whole populations wipe one another out, trillions of organisms, killed in cold blood simply because one population must survive at the others' expense. Is it sin?

Animals eat one another, steal one another's food - eat one another's children. Animals sometimes eat people. Beavers build dams and flood areas, driving other animals from their homes. Is it sin?

An asteroid crashed into the earth, killing off every living thing on the surface - is it sin?

I'm sure an animal doesn't want to get eaten - it will avoid being eaten, when threatened with it, it will run for it's life, fight, etc. One animal does violence to another.

Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human.

The concept of Sin comes from the argument that as an individual, you are important, and deserve to be respected according to certain guidelines. No one should steal your stuff, no one should kill you, no one should sleep with your mate (somewhat arbitrary), no one should impinge on your happiness, security, or health in any way. Because everyone feels this way, violating these basic desires for ourselves is Sin. The vast, vast majority of people don't even take God into account when considering Sin.

My point is, God isn't the source of all evil; Evil doesn't exist, nor does Good. The cosmos, and certainly God, the Absolute, is beyond all mortal conception of right or wrong. We're just selfish, immature beings with a sense of superiority and a desire to be allowed to maintain an illusion of safety, security and happiness for our material body and it's accessories. You're going to die whether someone kills you or not. If you're happy now, one day you won't be. Then you'll be happy again, and then not, and so on. You're going to lose everything you have ever or will ever own. Nothing you or anyone else says will ever be true; You'll never live up to the standards of a saint and neither will anyone else. Even saints have skeletons in their closet. You are not safe, you are not secure, and you never will be. And that doesn't even have anything to do with the phantom idea of evil and sin on the part of other people or God.

Does that mean it's okay to kill? Not unless you absolutely have to.
Does that mean it's okay to steal? Not unless you can't survive otherwise.
Does that mean you should sleep with your neighbor's mate? Sure, go for it, people are far too uptight about sex. Use a condom.

Being stuck inside a box with definitions of Good and Evil, Sin and Virtue, God and Satan, is a limiting and very small box to try and live in, most people can't be happy in such a small space (although i imagine very small people fit just fine). I prefer to replace sin and virtue with Necessity. Necessity sees no good or evil - only what must or must not be done in any given situation. Then, your decisions are guided moment by moment, and are dependent upon your ultimate Goals. Other people's necessities will conflict with yours. You'll be back in the pool with everyone else, but acting on a far more logical and practical mode of judgment. It's not as cozy as a black and white guide to right and wrong, and it requires a fair bit of clarity and courage, but it will more accurately reflect the kind of person you really want to be. Following arbitrary rules of an ancient Church State from the dark ages, you're not a 'good' person - you're just obedient.

Blame God all you want though - The Absolute simply is; it is impassive, uncaring, never spiteful, never happy. Nothing you or anyone does, says, thinks, or assumes will make any difference. Blaming god for sin is a fruitless endeavor that amounts to blaming the sun for shining. Wear sunglasses.

peace
V

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jul 4 2008, 04:25 PM

Krell makes good points. I like to think of things in terms of comparisons - as above, so below.

In the world of single cell organisms, bacteria eat one another, they steal one another's food, etc. Whole populations wipe one another out, trillions of organisms, killed in cold blood simply because one population must survive at the others' expense. Is it sin?

Animals eat one another, steal one another's food - eat one another's children. Animals sometimes eat people. Beavers build dams and flood areas, driving other animals from their homes. Is it sin?

An asteroid crashed into the earth, killing off every living thing on the surface - is it sin?

I'm sure an animal doesn't want to get eaten - it will avoid being eaten, when threatened with it, it will run for it's life, fight, etc. One animal does violence to another.

Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human.

The concept of Sin comes from the argument that as an individual, you are important, and deserve to be respected according to certain guidelines. No one should steal your stuff, no one should kill you, no one should sleep with your mate (somewhat arbitrary), no one should impinge on your happiness, security, or health in any way. Because everyone feels this way, violating these basic desires for ourselves is Sin. The vast, vast majority of people don't even take God into account when considering Sin.

My point is, God isn't the source of all evil; Evil doesn't exist, nor does Good. The cosmos, and certainly God, the Absolute, is beyond all mortal conception of right or wrong. We're just selfish, immature beings with a sense of superiority and a desire to be allowed to maintain an illusion of safety, security and happiness for our material body and it's accessories. You're going to die whether someone kills you or not. If you're happy now, one day you won't be. Then you'll be happy again, and then not, and so on. You're going to lose everything you have ever or will ever own. Nothing you or anyone else says will ever be true; You'll never live up to the standards of a saint and neither will anyone else. Even saints have skeletons in their closet. You are not safe, you are not secure, and you never will be. And that doesn't even have anything to do with the phantom idea of evil and sin on the part of other people or God.

Does that mean it's okay to kill? Not unless you absolutely have to.
Does that mean it's okay to steal? Not unless you can't survive otherwise.
Does that mean you should sleep with your neighbor's mate? Sure, go for it, people are far too uptight about sex. Use a condom.

Being stuck inside a box with definitions of Good and Evil, Sin and Virtue, God and Satan, is a limiting and very small box to try and live in, most people can't be happy in such a small space (although i imagine very small people fit just fine). I prefer to replace sin and virtue with Necessity. Necessity sees no good or evil - only what must or must not be done in any given situation. Then, your decisions are guided moment by moment, and are dependent upon your ultimate Goals. Other people's necessities will conflict with yours. You'll be back in the pool with everyone else, but acting on a far more logical and practical mode of judgment. It's not as cozy as a black and white guide to right and wrong, and it requires a fair bit of clarity and courage, but it will more accurately reflect the kind of person you really want to be. Following arbitrary rules of an ancient Church State from the dark ages, you're not a 'good' person - you're just obedient.

Blame God all you want though - The Absolute simply is; it is impassive, uncaring, never spiteful, never happy. Nothing you or anyone does, says, thinks, or assumes will make any difference. Blaming god for sin is a fruitless endeavor that amounts to blaming the sun for shining. Wear sunglasses.

peace
V

Very well put V. Very too the point. I'd like to throw something out about one comment or actually a small part of a comment.

"Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human"

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but do animals have less awareness then humans? I'm not so sure. A different angle, and of different things certainly. stare into the eyes of a manatee some time if you get the chance. I suspect the whale and the dolphin would be similar. It is difficult to come up with a description. Its like they are telepathic but our brain can not translate. What about the dogs hearing what does it understand from it, or the bears smell. We don't know.

Ahhhh as usual a story:
I went for a walk in the wood by the house with my dog. At some point I came upon a a dog laying in the path. I ( also a brain fart story) decided to see how close I could get to a dog before it knew I was there (Kids not a good idea, please don't do this at home or anywhere else for that matter). My dog knowing what I was up to stood an watched. He was probably thinking Now what is the idiot doing? Well I am or was good in the woods and been in this one since I was 7, I was 20 at the time. I got literally with in 18 inches. Wow Look at me... yea look at me... oh crap what now it hasn't seen me yet. The dog was NOT sleeping by the way. Well can I back up as well, 1 step back... nope. The dog caught me out of the corner of his eye and froze. He got up so slow it looked like he was being pump up. I was trying to maintain, stepping back a little faster. It dog got about 1/3 the way up, and sprung into the air, spinning to face me. I didn't know a dog could jump that high. He let out a yelp. about 12 more came out of nowhere. They formed a circle around me and started to walk around me. All I could do was remain calm as possible, and try to pick up one why I chose to die this way torn to bits by a pack of dogs. My dog (who I'd forgotten about) walked through the circle from behind me and appeared at my side. He sat beside me, looked up at me like you dumb a--. The circle stopped, the dogs face in. I thought here is comes. My dog walked up to the one in front of us. Nose to Nose they started growling and making sounds I had not heard out of dogs before, groweling all the same. This went on for 2 or 3 minutes. I was fastinated. They stopped, my dog came back sat at my side. The dog he was talking to gave a yelp, then started down the path the other dogs fell in behind. Later I walked through the middle of the pack they paid no attention.

Anyway something to think about. It was like dogs had a super secret that few humans are exposed to. I suspect the human delusions of grandeur go deeper then we suspect... at any rate for those of us that realize we ain't that great. Heck, there aren't too many (if any) that fowl their own nest, as humans do... we're not even house broken :-)

Krell

"Humans may think we're all high and mighty because we have greater awareness than an animal, but there are scales of awareness even beyond our own. To those states of higher awareness, we're just doing what we do - it's not good or bad, it's not sin or virtue; it's just humans being human"

Perhaps you didn't mean it this way, but do animals have less awareness then humans? I'm not so sure. A different angle, and of different things certainly. stare into the eyes of a manatee some time if you get the chance. I suspect the whale and the dolphin would be similar. It is difficult to come up with a description. Its like they are telepathic but our brain can not translate. What about the dogs hearing what does it understand from it, or the bears smell. We don't know.

Some animals have more or less awareness than others - some humans have more or less awareness than others. Some animals may be more aware than humans, and some humans may be more aware than some of the beings situated just above us on the chain.

All I can say for sure is that in my experience I have only explored the bands of awareness associated with a few other mammals, a lizard, and some kinds of trees - and in all cases, I have ultimately come to the conclusion that based on what I can remember of the experiences over time, this particular plants and animals seem to have a more specialized, but limited awareness. More importantly, they are locked into their potential, which is unlocked far slower than human potential. I've heard several theories on why that is.

I can maximize the use of any of my senses, and more importantly I have the awareness of that potential to do so. I can specialize in any of thousands of skills requiring my particular human-ness to both learn and accomplish, and again I am aware that such things are possible. I can expound particular bands of awareness through observation and make conjectures based on those observations about aspects of the world around me I have not yet encountered - this are things that animals cannot do, or are, in the case of particular aware animals, have extreme limitations in comparison to a human, based largely on their awareness of certain things.

An animal's, or a plant's for that matter, awareness is specialized, narrower but possibly more acute in that narrow bandwidth, than a human's, however, a human's band of awareness is simply wider - we have the potential to maximize any are of that awareness rather than being specifically wired into a particular state of awareness.

As that relates to the nature of sin - as Valkyrie intimates, it arises from the complexity of our social order, based on our awareness of one another in a grand scale. It's not that a dog cannot be aware that there are other dogs in the world outside it's immediate area, but it cannot immediately be aware of and acknowledge the idea that there are dogs everywhere in the world, and certainly does not take into account the repercussions of it's actions here and now, across the entire local, national, or global population of Dogs. It simply doesn't enter into the Dog's mind - just as it never enters into the average human's mind how it's immediate mental activity is affecting the surrounding ether, and other ethereal bodies elsewhere on that plane of existence.

peace
V