Transgendered, Two genders, three? Options

So, recently my friend Allison was watching this documentary which was the Vagina Monologues, performed by transgendered women. While it was apparently an amazing performance, she was a little offended. When we discussed the performance, I started to understand why, and I wondered what the people here think about the transgender point of view, and the idea of a third gender. I'm starting this discussion here because first of all, I imagine my own viewpoint is maybe a little offensive, although I don't have a problem with trangendered individuals, but second of all, it doesn't really fit anywhere else.

In addition to the subject i'm about to raise, and keeping with the obvious theme of the forums, I'm curious about what people think about the third gender - if we can or should term it this way - in terms of spiritual and mystical significance. I have thoughts on this, and you all know you'll hear them.

So, for those of you not familiar, the Vagina Monologues are about women accepting themselves - as a gender, and sexually; coming to terms with the female condition, their anatomy, themselves as the counterpart to the male gender, etc. Part of the reason my friend was a little offended seeing these transgendered women was for that very reason - while a transgendered woman (specifically) may have to learn to come to terms with themselves as a third gender, or understand why they feel the need to change gender (viewpoints vary), they don't realistically understand the experience of accepting themselves as women. They never experience the first period, the fear and anxiety that almost always comes with that in our society (western society particularly, it's not like this in all cultures), accepting or rising above their social status due to their gender, and all of the other mysterious things that go with being a woman (mysterious to me, because I'm a man.)

Now, I can sympathize with this a little bit. I've only known a couple of transgendered individuals and while I'm happy to give them whatever pronoun they want, the fact remains that they are in between genders, and this is where I found the greatest contradiction in the performance: the Vagina Monologues are about women accepting their gender and it's attendant advantages and difficulties. This play is performed here by a group of people who didn't accept their gender.

Now, in some cultures a third gender is recognized, and in other cultures this condition is simply overlooked - Thai culture, for instance, never bats an eyelash at a transgendered woman; if a man wants to live as a woman, it's just accepted, although I'm not entirely sure it goes the other way for transgendered men. In parts of india, a third gender is recognized - if I have my information correct - which is neither male nor female, because they aren't either one. In the west, though, the concept of a third gender is pretty new, and most transgendered individuals seem to prefer considering themselves part of their new gender. Personally, I don't think this is right. Like my friend, I feel this cheapens the experience of being one gender or the other. For a third-gender individual to say that they understand, experientially, or to celebrate themselves as their new gender, feels somewhat wrong, even offensive, to me as well. Not only that, but I believe it cheapens the experience of being third-gender as well.

On the spiritual side, I have wondered what the significance of a third gender is. The obvious significance is in the hermaphrodite, the union of male and female into one new being. However, I'm not sure that this divine union can be applied here, and I'll tell you why.

The classical concept of uniting the feminine with the masculine has always been, to me, about balance, integration, and acceptance of both the masculine and feminine parts, reconciled into one. Obvious parallels here are the joining of light to dark, magnetic to electric, yin to yang, etc. - the list literally includes everything in existence on one side or the other of the spectrum. However, what I see in a transgendered individual - from my obviously limited external viewpoint - is someone who has given up or rejected one part of themselves to take on another form. Now, this is quite general, and I'm sure there are exceptions in the form of individuals who live as women/men while maintaining their natural anatomy. But even then, it still seems like substitution.

While I realize it's not the same, having accepted myself as a gay man in a society which was a lot less accepting just ten years ago than it sometimes is today - much less fifty years ago - I understand the need to express the person one feels they truly are, and the need to be accepted as that 'new' person without conditions. However, I also understand having to learn to accept oneself in the face of a world that doesn't accept you as you are, and having learned since childhood only to accept oneself on a conditional basis. It's probably somewhat hypocritical I realize, but I wonder sometimes if the inability to accept one's gender - especially when so many women go through that very thing the world over - and the need to change it is in a way, karmically speaking, a failure. Were you born a man to learn to accept the masculine part of your being, or were you born a man to learn how to create perhaps the greatest change in yourself that you can? It seems to me that, like it or not, you will have to face the challenges of your gender regardless whether you accept yourself as your initial gender or not, and that as there is a reason for everything in existence, it was no accident that you were born the gender you are. While this might seem like a conservative viewpoint, and maybe it is, the question is, does that reason include the journey into the third gender?

If there's anyone on the forum who is transgendered, I'd be most interested to hear from you regarding all of these points and questions. I think the greatest mistake you can make, perhaps, is to assume you can know the experience of another person, so while I have opinions, ultimately I know there is a gap in my experience that I cannot ever really cross, and that leaves a lot of questions. Failing that, what does everyone else here think of the subject?

peace
V

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jul 16 2008, 07:22 PM

I suppose I pretty much feel the same way about the subject as you do. In my mind all that Acid09 is talking about is Karmic. I was discussing this with 2 friends who are both Gay. We have also studied together and one studied for a short time under one of my teachers. They were under the same impression as I am... it is Karmic and one should work with what you are given, no alterations.

If one is born in a country that is not tolerant such as the US, I can not see that you would be unaware of the fact. If you go out an flaunt the very thing that is not tolerated and wind up with a brick up side your head, I believe this could be classified as instant karma. I you went walking down Colfax (sp) making eyes at the nice young cow boys and a month later one of them recognizes you in an ally then it seem it is accrued Karma. I believe You pick you parents and your country and your life, to learn, getting a brick up side you head is a great lesson survived or not.

Here's the problem:
It IS now possible to be surgical altered, what does one do. My friends are under the impression that you do not alter what you were born with. We are the way we are to learn certain things. The part that causes some confusion in my mind is that the tools are available to make changes, we may utilize all the tools available to us in our life. So I think I just talked myself into a circle here.

I am inclined to go with my friends. No alterations to what you are given, learn to deal with it within the society you were born. You could also move it you life went in that direction. On the other hand, suppose you were a Nazi SS Coronal that tortured and gassed gays, would it not be fitting to be born in the US or worse Mexico, a woman in a mans body?

V this is a tough one, something I have not put too much thought into, it is making my brain itch. I guess I am going to have to go back and look over what I was taught about Karma. I was hoping there would be more people commenting, the varied prespectives might help.

Krell