The Rose Cross, A method for sigilization Options

The golden developed a vey nice and effective way for drawing sigils,that is the rose cross,many magicians used this method with success,I keep a copy in my grimoire,there is not much to say actually about it so i will just insert the rose cross:
(IMG:http://www.wisdomsdoor.com/wb/images/hwb-sigil-2.gif)


simply trace the word you want to sigilize with a pencil drawing a small horizontal line in the beginning of the sigil and a small circle at the end.

Charge the sigil and good luck.

“This reminds me of Dee and kelly's experiments with enochian magick,they were given a false sigil by an intruding spirit,spirits are self aware entities,but with more raw power,yet spirits are like humans some are wise and powerful some are absolute idiots,the sigil you create can be viewed by the spirit as a name for it,some spirits take the sigil as a method for calling it that is associated with the practitioner him/herself, like an email address or IP for example.”

So your saying using a “genuine” sigil vs. an original one, would still work equally well, because spirits will basically come when called. I agree with that concept, because hoodoo practitioners can call on Michael, using no sigils and achieve their request just as well as a person using one of his “genuine” sigils.

“Hagiel is a spirit, presumed to possess intelligence that one could contact. Could the same be said of Malkuth?”

I don’t believe Malkuth is a self aware entity, but I have knowledge in qaballah.

“wherein the participation of others is irrelevant.”

You’ve fail to notice the point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/doh.gif)

“In the case of the Rose, the structure of the sigils is developed by long and careful work, and the magician is formally introduced ("initiated") into the process whereby the spirits or powers become entwined with the sigils for him or herself.”

This would also be the case for the type writer as well.

“It is the consecration of the Rose that gives its sigils their potency, and that consecration is part of a larger system in which you and I have no part.”

Consecration is basically declaring out loud that the Rose Cross is sacred, which is redundant since one already has that sense when taking the time to use it versus random squiggles or a type writer. So consecrating a type writer would make it equal to the Rose Cross, I don’t know about the “larger system” theory, but somehow I have no part in it anyways.

“No doubt that doubt is useful in a research phase ,but to Doubt everything is to strip everything from sacred value.which is undoubtly a destructive behavior,the Key is" Doubt till you believe"

I agree

It just irritates me when know-it-all occultist throw up Crowley quotes like that proves/validates their argument/authority in the subject or something. Its immature and redundant. Sorry but every sec I’m seeing noobs do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

I don’t believe Malkuth is a self aware entity, but I have knowledge in qaballah.

So consecrating a type writer would make it equal to the Rose Cross, I don’t know about the “larger system” theory, but somehow I have no part in it anyways.

It just irritates me when know-it-all occultist throw up Crowley quotes like that proves/validates their argument/authority in the subject or something. Its immature and redundant. Sorry but every sec I’m seeing noobs do this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

Malkuth is "the Kingdom," usually identified with the materials components of the world: time, space, matter, and energy through which spirit (the higher spheres) operates.

The Rose is a symbol taken from the larger Golden Dawn system, and its power in part is a result of long developing work in that system. Since none of us in this conversation are Golden Dawn adepts, we don't have any business using their symbols, especially if others are just as effective and relatively easy to produce.

The Rose is magical on account of the work put into it by the initiate, not out of respect for its use by other initiates or out of any convenience it offers in producing obscure patterns.

I hope you will understand that I'm not a "noob," and perhaps realize that I do have a large amount of knowledge on occult subjects from learning and practice. If that makes me a "know it all," so be it. Whatever may be said against Crowley on account of his personal life, his knowledge and competence in the occult ought to be obvious. Nowhere in his enormous body of work does he ever suggest that group belief lends validity to sigils, or that disbelief would rob them of their power. Carl Jung was not a magician.

Azareth, I have seen many people take your "free for all" approach and have found them (more often than not) mistaking lack of discipline for lack of definition. You say you've had success. Great! Can you tell us some more about your methods, the aims, and the results? Your previous response on this matter left much to be desired, lacking all the details that were requested.

The Rose is a symbol taken from the larger Golden Dawn system, and its power in part is a result of long developing work in that system.

The rose is the heart of the rose cross, the lamen of the golden dawn adept. It is a symbol of balance, harmony, the great work complete, and tiphareth among other things. It's point of balance is the reason it is used to draw sigils of words such as "Malkuth" for use in tools, talismans, etc. Everyone is speaking of the rose alone as if the rest of the cross has no bearing with it's beautiful harmony of pentagrams, hexagrams, tree of life, alchemical, and more obscure symbolism. None of the symbols alone is important, it is the relationship and balance to each other. The english letter version is a bastardization of the rose by Konstantinos. Even the arrangement of the hebrew letters is not random and a bit more than just mother, double, single. Incidentally, the version most people use as found in Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" is incorrect. The arrangement of two of the letters have been switched.

Now can a non Golden Dawn member or someone who has not gone through that system use the sigils generated? I don't know, it has never occurred to me before and as I have been a member of the Golden Dawn for years, I really have no way of testing it. But I would assume the answer is yes. Although I personally make a distinction between sigils and seals of spirits. A sigil being a type of phone number that you can use to contact a spirit or energy. Where a seal is a drawn representation of the actual spirit. If you ask the spirit to write his name, the seal generally is what it gives. Through the seal you can obtain power over the spirit. It is a long held occult idea that knowing the "true name" of a being gives you power over it. Where a sigil on the other hand is just a ways of contact, once obtain a seal can be twiddled out of a spirit.

Back to the topic of the rose cross. Planetary squares can be used through their mathematical relationship to generate sigils to that associated planet. They work based on nothing else but the Pythagorean-esk ideal of the universe is numbers. I know they work because I have used them. Then through those sigils obtained contact and the spirits true seal. Based upon that, I would assume the rose cross would work based on it's underlying qabalic symbolism for use of any tree of life type spirit. Outside of that I am not sure.

The rose is the heart of the rose cross, the lamen of the golden dawn adept. It is a symbol of balance, harmony, the great work complete, and tiphareth among other things. It's point of balance is the reason it is used to draw sigils of words such as "Malkuth" for use in tools, talismans, etc. Everyone is speaking of the rose alone as if the rest of the cross has no bearing with it's beautiful harmony of pentagrams, hexagrams, tree of life, alchemical, and more obscure symbolism. None of the symbols alone is important, it is the relationship and balance to each other. The english letter version is a bastardization of the rose by Konstantinos. Even the arrangement of the hebrew letters is not random and a bit more than just mother, double, single. Incidentally, the version most people use as found in Regardie's "The Golden Dawn" is incorrect. The arrangement of two of the letters have been switched.

Now can a non Golden Dawn member or someone who has not gone through that system use the sigils generated? I don't know, it has never occurred to me before and as I have been a member of the Golden Dawn for years, I really have no way of testing it. But I would assume the answer is yes. [size=2][color=#993399]Although I personally make a distinction between sigils and seals of spirits. A sigil being a type of phone number that you can use to contact a spirit or energy. Where a seal is a drawn representation of the actual spirit. If you ask the spirit to write his name, the seal generally is what it gives. Through the seal you can obtain power over the spirit. It is a long held occult idea that knowing the "true name" of a being gives you power over it. Where a sigil on the other hand is just a ways of contact, once obtain a seal can be twiddled out of a spirit.

Back to the topic of the rose cross. Planetary squares can be used through their mathematical relationship to generate sigils to that associated planet. They work based on nothing else but the Pythagorean-esk ideal of the universe is numbers. I know they work because I have used them. Then through those sigils obtained contact and the spirits true seal. Based upon that, I would assume the rose cross would work based on it's underlying qabalic symbolism for use of any tree of life type spirit. Outside of that I am not sure.

what you said about the difference between sigils and seals is true,a seal is something personal as you stated (a representaion of the spirit) but the sigil is different,that's why I wouldnt edit or modify Goetic seals for example.but i would modify sigils,perhaps create ones too.which may have caused this argument.

Peace and love