Demons: Beneficial Or Not?, The thread to end all disputes Options

HOLD UP

acid 09
err... wait.... SUCCUBUS! RUN!!!!

it could very well be Succubus.
If this the case (and not a sexual oriented dream) stay away from it. Its like a venus fly trap waiting for its next victom.

"It's a good thing!"
"It's a bad thing!"
"It's a lover!"
"It's a parasite!"
"It's a succubus!"

You know what? It these petty arguments that just piss me off.
(IMG:http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/3/3c/RAAAAGE.png)

"FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU-"

The Synopsis:
Do Demons hate us, or love us? (or are they neutral?)

The traditionalists say that demons are malefactors, but the followers of the left-hand path say that they are benefactors. The neutralists say that they are akin to the handling of Nuclear energy: Beneficient if the science is known.

Argument - Nature of the Beast:
But lately, it always seems to boil down to the argument as to whether Demons are inherently benevolent, or inherently malevolent, or for all we know, they have their own agenda and are as whimsical as we humans if not more.

-Ceremonial Argument
Malevolent. These are beings that represent forces of the mundane, material, and the forces of addiction. They thrive off of suffering, and do not care about those who they make suffer for their own gain. They represent the forces of sin (however this is defined), and stand against the grand-ultimate "I AM". They stand for illusions, trickery, and lies.

They never give you what you want, and always leave you wanting more, never giving full-on contentment.

-LHP Argument
Benevolent. These are beings that were demonized by our petty mortal perceptions. From our experiences, they help us get what we want to be happy.

We get power, they get respect. It's give and take, done in a manner which is befitting of human beings, given that this is the best we can do.

Argument - Interaction:
Then, it moves onto the subject on how to encounter one of these beings in the proper manner. "

-Ceremonial argument
Set up by ceremonial magicians, the traditionalists say, "You have to use coercion because of all they know."

Rebuttal: That is the same argument used by white supremacists about blacks, saying, "You must treat them harshly and like animals because primitive impulses and crime is all they know."

Counter-rebuttal: But history shows that Demons have such behaviors, agendas, and motives

Retro-counter-rebuttal: How do you know that it is Demons that have such behaviors and not other entities that wish to frame others? The idea and urge to frame another for your actions as a scapegoat is the true evil act. What's more, you arbitrarily label any malificent spirit as "Demon," when in the LHP experience, "Demons" work for the benefit of humankind when asked.

What's more, who wouldn't act that way if treated with constant coercion?

-LHP Argument
Treat them with respect, and you will be treated as such back. Reciprocation is big, because many times, Demons (or preferred, Daemons) help in matters of retribution and vindication. On this basis, it is fair to say, that respect comes as the prime factor.

All this is based on a pact of trust established, noted, and expressed through the magicians willful conjuration of the spirit in question. If the magician did not respect this entity, why bother calling at all? On top of that, if the magician was not respectable, what entity of power, mortal or otherwise, would even obey or honor a call like that to such a person?

Rebuttal: Never go in without protection, lest you choose to make a decision stupidly.

Counter-Rebuttal: Honesty, Trust, and Respect is what protects the integrity of the parties involved, not some ordered, mechanical procedure to invoke some authority from a celestial bureaucracy.

Retro-counter-rebuttal: It is the authority of this system, by invoking the name of the grand-ultimate, the "I AM," that all things are compelled to obey. This gives the magician full discretion to use his power, and the choice to use it responsibly.


Added note: An interesting observation I have seen about these arguments, is how close they resemble the egregores of "Conservatives" vs "Liberals" on our Earth.

The Ceremonialist ideal seems to resemble the "Conservatives" more in the attitudes, based on the shared priorities of Defense, Authority, Order, and Gain.

The LHP ideal seems to resemble more "Liberal" ideals, such as personal freedom unfettered by the interference of others and their preferences, trust in the powers that they interact with for help on the basis that things are meant to work naturally for a common beneficience, and complete acceptance and adherence to the self as a means for the pursuit of happiness.

"Conservatives" seem to have a history of coersion in their methods for their gain, while "Liberals" tend to care more for the other party in question, in hopes that the reciprocation may be fair, or even greater, based on favorable standings.

CONCLUSION:

"Shadow vs Vorlon argument"

Sometimes it is sensible to destroy or overthrow a system that does not work, and there are times where it is necessary to follow the rules precisely, both for the betterment of ourselves, those around us, and our world as a whole.

Neither are correct or wrong: They both simply -are-, and have different agendas. This must be acknowledged.

As above, so below: We have corrupt people and we have just people on both sides of the spectrum. There are benevolent and malevolent spirits on both sides of the spectrum.

It seems to be more or less about preference and affinity towards the more "Orthodox" energies of the universe or, in contrast, the "Unorthodox."

With all these dualities and dialectics, I am very tempted to say "screw it" and go Taoist.
------

Now, the real question is, what ARE their agendas, anyway?

Without bias, without prejudgments, without taking fear, hatred, or other emotions into play, using only our higher human reasoning of which we as human beings can pride ourselves on, despite it's limited function, use, and ability, make some inferences as to the Agendas of the following classifications of spirits:

-Judeo-christian God and his angels
-Daemons of the Goetia
-The various pantheons, subdivided by their cultures
-Chthonic Proto-titans and demiurgic forces

I wish to know this, so that I can make the voluntary, willful, fully-informed choice to go with, align with, and work with whomever I please.

The stage is set. The arguments and observations layed down.

(IMG:http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/65/Image/fight.JPG)

The Synopsis:
Do Demons hate us, or love us? (or are they neutral?)

Depends which group you're talking about, really.

In my own mind, the Goetics in particular get an excessively bad rap, IMHO.

From everything I've seen with them, while sure, there are a couple who will seriously act out if given half the chance, they aren't necessarily the majority. Most of them, in moral terms, seem to be relatively neutral. If you're diplomatic with them, you might get what you want, depending (like with most people, truthfully) on what's in it for them.

Truthfully, even Forcalor, when Imperial Arts called him up, actually seemed like he had real integrity. I'm normally a huge fan of Imperial's work, but in this case, Imperial was trying to get him to kill someone purely (it seemed, anywayz) to prove that magick worked. Forcalor seemed pissed about this, and I didn't blame him. He said he thought it was inappropriate, and he didn't want to do it. He said that human beings don't actually have the right to kill each other at all.

In my one improv attempt at calling a Goetic so far, (Paimon) I was firm to the point of even being a little arrogant, however I also gave him the proscribed offering as well. I had communication with him, and he was pompous and tried to jerk me around.

How I treated Paimon basically reflects my attitude towards dealing with demons in particular, evocation wise. (Angels are different, because while I might not be at the same level, I consider them on the same "side" essentially)

Said attitude is this:-

- I will take the time to figure out what your individual little quirks and requirements are, and attempt to meet them, within reason. I will use incense, and I will provide offerings for you. I won't actually do that because I have to do it, either. I do it partly because I want to exercise at least some compassion towards you, while being firm, but also because if you're co-operative with me, I'm possibly going to want to establish a repeat working relationship with you, and I know that if we're going to be friends rather than me just relying on the curses, it's important for me to be civil.

- I will not make overly frivolous requests of you in order to provoke you, and I ordinarily will not ask you to kill anyone in my stead, because I know that you are as a soldier under me, and if you kill anyone in my stead, I am as much morally and karmically responsible as if I physically did it myself. The only time I would ask you to kill someone remotely would be if I was willing to do it myself if I was close to the person, and I was prepared to wear the consequences. I will never order you to do that which I would be unwilling to do myself, if I had the ability.

- I will not attempt to ask you for information or services outside your particular office, because I know you're not required to obey me if I do that, and that's fine. There are conditions that we both have to work within.

If you're square with me, willingly do what I want, don't jerk me around, don't lie to me, and don't give me attitude, the following beneficial things (for you) will happen.

- I will remember you as being one of the spirits who I've dealt with who behaved positively towards me, and will seek you out again.

- If/when I have the money, as part of the above, I will get your sigil more permanently rendered.

- I will recommend your name to other people who do evocations, as a spirit who is positive to deal with.

- I will be courteous towards you, and will not torture you with the curses for as long as you co-operate.

If you're not willing to play well with me, however, (and particularly if you lie to me and I find out about it, as that is the one thing that will truly enrage me) I will not hesitate to kick your ass, and if you refuse to co-operate after I have also tried to be decent towards you as outlined above, it will also likely be with a fair amount of prejudice. I have the authority to do that, from four sources.

a) The Solomonic covenant, as the curses are my main offensive weapons against you. I might be a Gentile, and I might not be Christian as such any more, but I do still believe in the historical reality of Jesus Christ, and the points of the Nicene Creed, and I am aware of the reality of the God of Israel, who is one of the signatories of said covenant, as well.

b) The four archangels, two of whom I've had individual dealings with. I'm obviously nowhere near as highly developed as these guys, but dualistically speaking I at least try to be on the solar team; I'm not a demonolator, and I'm not a Satanist.

c) My own blood covenant with Kali Ma, who was/is herself a demon slayer.

d) My humanity. I am, to quote Bardon, a quadrapolar being, and being human on planet Earth means I have something which neither angels nor demons have; the ability to evolve, and change my position in the universe. By contrast, the role of both angels and demons, whether imprisoned or not, is fixed. I don't consider myself higher up the chain than the angels, but with the demons I am, and I'm not afraid to let them know about it. Someone else said to me that I should mind my manners with Paimon, because he is a King. My response was, (and is) "Not over me, he isn't."

This post has been edited by Petrus: Jun 9 2009, 08:01 PM