Women and Men, Their Roles in Magic Options

Greetings! (PS the title may be too limiting...go nuts!)
This was a bud starting to form in the Abramelin thread.
It was stated that women should be excluded from the Abramelin working.
It was remarked upon about that this was a prevalent attitude in Western esoteric traditions.
I maintain (whether right or wrong) that this practice takes place all around the world and that Magic can be dictated by the sex of the user. Women and Men handle/channel energy differently....
So, what are your thoughts?
Is this merely an attitude foisted off on us by the patriarchal church? Or does it stem from something alittle more basic?
Do tell us your opinions, theories or thoughts about this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I dont think men and women think differently (that doesn't even make sense to me, unless we are talking the stereotypical beliefs that men are logical, women are emotional). I personally think and act typically male (via American society). There is nothing different from me and my male friends other than the physical. There is no proof that women think differently than men unless I'm the only women in the world who happened to miss the world wide female survey and test on how you think.

“Menstral blood etc. cannot be manifested by a male. Period (pun intended *grin*).”

So? Many women can’t manifest menstral blood. The example of menstruation doesn’t apply to all women and shouldn’t in my opinion be an example of how women can channel energy different. II have many other female friends including myself that don’t go on periods.

I’m just sensitive to these stereotypes, because I tend to be the only women in my hobbies, and work, and I don’t like to be seen/judged as less than or not what a women is or refused something at work because of my sex and that “we think differently”.

My advice is to meet more women and be more open minded. Clear your mind of judgmental and stereotypical categories of people.

The idea that women can’t practice magic is archaic just like skin color dictating intelligence. Its pretty simple to me. . .

I dont think men and women think differently (that doesn't even make sense to me, unless we are talking the stereotypical beliefs that men are logical, women are emotional). I personally think and act typically male (via American society). There is nothing different from me and my male friends other than the physical. There is no proof that women think differently than men unless I'm the only women in the world who happened to miss the world wide female survey and test on how you think.

Here's just one of many studies about how many and women think - physiologically. http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.html Thinking, in terms of processing information via the activity of the brain, is a phsyiological activity. That activity which takes place on the 'mental plane' is not the same as what occurs in your brain. What the brain does is what you might call 'finite thought'. Men and women do think differently, it is a matter of hormone presence and endocrine activity. Frankly speaking, except for empirical information garnered via endoencephalagrams, psychological case studies, and surveys (we're talking case studies in the thousands, not a couple of dozen in some particular area), you have no idea whether or not you think like a man or not. You could never know beyond these observable element how to compare your thought processes with any other living being. You can compare a certain level of similarity to presence on the mental plane, if you are able to observe sensation on that level yet, but that is, again, not the same thing as 'brain consciousness'.

“Menstral blood etc. cannot be manifested by a male. Period (pun intended *grin*).”

So? Many women can’t manifest menstral blood. The example of menstruation doesn’t apply to all women and shouldn’t in my opinion be an example of how women can channel energy different. II have many other female friends including myself that don’t go on periods.

That doesn't change the fact that only women can produce it, that men absolutely can't, and that mentrual blood has it's own particular magical qualities unique to that substance. I don't ever care to use the stuff, but plain fact is I can't make it on my own even if I wanted to use it. It has little to do with whether you do or don't.

I’m just sensitive to these stereotypes, because I tend to be the only women in my hobbies, and work, and I don’t like to be seen/judged as less than or not what a women is or refused something at work because of my sex and that “we think differently”.

You are sensitive to all stereotypes presented to you so far, but that's perfectly fine. The think is, these are not stereotypes. You're thinking of this in terms of subjectivity, but there is no discussion of subjective traits of the sexes, in my opinion, present in this thread so far. Additionally, not one of us has so far posted anything along the lines of being 'less than' or 'not what a woman is' etc., because you are a woman and you think differently. The differences between men and women to no imply any kind of value judgement for one or the other and I don't think it has been used that way here. I wouldn't take offense to being told I couldn't give birth - why would you be offended if you were told you could not impregnate a woman with your seed? This is the same thing.

My advice is to meet more women and be more open minded. Clear your mind of judgmental and stereotypical categories of people.

I did not have a father growing up, I have only one male cousin who lives far away, one uncle I hardly ever saw, and a large family of nearly exclusively women. I have made friends almost exclusively with women over the course of my life - with very, very few exceptions. I work in a profession which is populated primarily by female professionals and female clientele. And yet I still do not understand how women think because in all my experience it has been made clear that those studies are not wrong - there are fundamental differences. I have met and known 'manly' women who take part in typically male activities, who play 'with the boys' and keep up with them, etc., and on the basic functionally conscious level, they appeared to react, process information, make assumptions, and operate intellectually like a female and not a male. Not better or worse than a male, just as a female. You consider these things to be inherently judgemental and stereotypical, but that is just modern conditioning on your part. You believe that the statement that men and women are different equates with men are better than women, but that is not true. One statement means one thing, the other statement means another. Inherent differences in basic function suggests inherent differences in aptitudes. That doesn't mean women are better are rearin' childrens, or that men are better at bringin' home tha' bacon. Considering these basic biological differences (I'm not, and was not, even considering the psychological differences as those are partially a matter of conditioning and therefore not absolute differences) of body and brain physiology stereotypes is like saying that brunettes are stereotypically brunette - that to assume a brunette has naturally brown/black hair is stereotyping that person somehow.

You and Kath appear to posit that Biological differences do not imply energetic differences. That comes from a misunderstanding of the energetic nature of reality (and not because you are women, but because you haven't resolved the paradox between a physical world and an energetic one). The physical, in this case biological, does count energetically. Even if you can operate functionally as a male energetically, there is a point of absolute division - you cannot act energetically 100% male, nor can I act energetically 100% female.

The idea that women can’t practice magic is archaic just like skin color dictating intelligence. Its pretty simple to me. . .

And there again you take one topic of discussion and turn it into an attack - no one has suggested in any way that women cannot practice magic. If you can quote that from someone here so far, then I would appreciate it because I seem to be missing that part here.

The subject called into question was whether or not the Abramelin operation from the "Book of Abramelin the Mage" can be successfully operated by a woman, for whatever reasons, given that within the book itself the text prohibits women undertaking the practice. Saying women can do anything is different than actually accomplishing, for instance, the execution of the Abramelin Operation. Hardly anyone has, much less women.

One point of view is an archaic one, which is less that women cannot practice magic and more, realistically, that women gain their magic other ways - most post-tribal cultures recognized some specialized kind of magic performed exclusively by women, but apparently that slipped through the cracks in reasoning here somehow - and are, from that point of view, not able to practice 'male magic'.

Now we know that in most cases men and women are able to accomplish the same things - however just as there are absolute divisions of capability physically (and there are, that's not an argument but a statement of commonly known fact), so must there also be absolute divisions of capability energetically/magically, because the principle of gender is reflected at all levels between the basic causal/spiritual and the manifest/physical.

The question is not whether or not those differences exist - any competently experienced magician of either gender can observe, not guess or speculate, that it is so. The question posed in this discussion is whether or not those differences prevent a woman from completing the abramelin operation or if instead the exclusion of women practitioners in the text is simply a product of the time.

sweeping generalizations are almost always wrong, and there are some in almost every post here

Is it a sweeping generalization to say that no one can breathe in space? Or that everyone will drown if held underwater long enough? Or that everyone has blood in their veins? There are certain functional absolutes in existence. These are not sweeping generalizations like value judgements of a race, gender, orientation, etc.

Why does the statement of differences between men and women arouse such indignation from women? No one is suggesting (except possibly the author of the Book of Abramelin) that women are less than men. Its like saying red is less than blue. And yet many women - not just you two, but most women in my life - take offense to that suggestion that the sexes are fundamentally different. Almost everyone everywhere agrees on this, and it is readily observable in everyday life, everywhere, even in places where men and women play the same roles. So why be so offended?

peace