Women and Men, Their Roles in Magic Options

Greetings! (PS the title may be too limiting...go nuts!)
This was a bud starting to form in the Abramelin thread.
It was stated that women should be excluded from the Abramelin working.
It was remarked upon about that this was a prevalent attitude in Western esoteric traditions.
I maintain (whether right or wrong) that this practice takes place all around the world and that Magic can be dictated by the sex of the user. Women and Men handle/channel energy differently....
So, what are your thoughts?
Is this merely an attitude foisted off on us by the patriarchal church? Or does it stem from something alittle more basic?
Do tell us your opinions, theories or thoughts about this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Here's just one of many studies about how many and women think - physiologically. http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.html Thinking, in terms of processing information via the activity of the brain, is a phsyiological activity.

How do scientist know for sure that I think more with white brain matter than gray like a man?

Men and women do think differently, it is a matter of hormone presence and endocrine activity. Frankly speaking, except for empirical information garnered via endoencephalagrams, psychological case studies, and surveys (we're talking case studies in the thousands, not a couple of dozen in some particular area), you have no idea whether or not you think like a man or not. You could never know beyond these observable element how to compare your thought processes with any other living being.

With out testing I don’t see how you can judge how I think based on the fact that I am a woman. I don’t know if I think like a man or not and nether do you. I’ve been given convincing scientific statistics and research that basically comes to the conclusion that certain races are inferior, science can prove anything.

That doesn't change the fact that only women can produce it, that men absolutely can't, and that mentrual blood has it's own particular magical qualities unique to that substance. I don't ever care to use the stuff, but plain fact is I can't make it on my own even if I wanted to use it. It has little to do with whether you do or don't.

How does the fact that only women can produce menstrual blood prove as one example that all women channel energy different when me and many other woman can’t produce menstrual blood?

I wouldn't take offense to being told I couldn't give birth - why would you be offended if you were told you could not impregnate a woman with your seed? This is the same thing.

Not all men can impregnate a woman and not all women can give birth.

I have met and known 'manly' women who take part in typically male activities, who play 'with the boys' and keep up with them, etc., and on the basic functionally conscious level, they appeared to react, process information, make assumptions, and operate intellectually like a female and not a male.

Manly women? So how did these men and women appear to react and process information differently? I’m assuming you can’t see whether white or gray brain matter is being used.

You believe that the statement that men and women are different equates with men are better than women, but that is not true.

I don’t like people and societies marginalizing what is female and what is male.

Even if you can operate functionally as a male energetically, there is a point of absolute division - you cannot act energetically 100% male, nor can I act energetically 100% female.

I also can’t act 100% female. So I guess I’m not fully female.

And there again you take one topic of discussion and turn it into an attack - no one has suggested in any way that women cannot practice magic. If you can quote that from someone here so far, then I would appreciate it because I seem to be missing that part here.

There is a reason why I didn’t quote anyone. I was simply stating that the view towards women in the Abremelin is an archaic idea like racism, and its that simple. Having an in depth debate about it is pointless.

Additionally, not one of us has so far posted anything along the lines of being 'less than' or 'not what a woman is' etc., because you are a woman and you think differently.

I didn't mean to insinuate inequality. I’m against the narrow concepts of gender.

You and Kath appear to posit that Biological differences do not imply energetic differences.

I agree that biological difference could imply energetic differences, but I dont think that has anything to do with gender as a whole sense everyone is different.

As an example, in this very discussion, gender has been divorced from empirical observation and natural order, which does not judge value, and been expanded, by you and by Aphrodite, into a matter of gender social paradigm.

If males and female thinking are dictated by the “natural” order and biochemistry than why is it that some men naturally are sexually and romantically attracted to men? In a sense that would be against nature and biochemistry. They must not be 100% males, especially ones that desire to be penetrated.

This discussion has nothing to do with stereotypes, and no stereotypes were expressed. This comment effectively came out of no where, and without context outside of how a reasonable argument presented was construed to be a value judgement on women, despite the fact that everyone here has stated explicitly that their opinion on the existence and function of gender in no way implies a value judgement for or against either. I'll grant that it has less to do with being a woman or emotional or any such thing, in having this particular response, and more to do with social experience and conditioning, and I'll grant that women by and large tend to have similar experiences do to the gender inequality of our own culture. However, whether by innate tendancies of experience -> response, or by social conditioning, I have never, ever, had a conversation like this with a man - you would not be surprised how often the subject of gender comes up in my life, being gay and having as many transgendered peers as I do - on any scale, who responded with anything similar. Granted, that may just as likely be because our social gender paradigm reflects a male bias. All I said questioned was why it was in my experience that women tend to take this topic in that direction. indignation is, to my experience, an almost universal response. It becomes an "I can do whatever you can do" conversation instead of a simple discussion of the basic differences inherent to gender, which has nothing to do with what one gender can accomplish versus the other, outside of pure biological function - which is again, not a reflection of ability.

You do realize you just proved my point about stereotyping? I’ve actually talked to numerous men, usually gay and/or non white, that are first to think inequality when discussing gender. Some would say that’s a minority bias. Luckily I realize that the average person meets about .0002% of the human race.

Based on your experiences I would think that women seen to be incapable of maturely and intelligently discussing gender.

This post has been edited by Aphrodite: Nov 10 2009, 09:52 PM