Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

 Women and Men, Their Roles in Magic
bym
post Nov 7 2009, 09:15 AM
Post #1


Gone But Not Forgotten
Group Icon
Posts: 1,244
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: New London, Connecticut, USA
Reputation: 9 pts




Greetings! (PS the title may be too limiting...go nuts!)
This was a bud starting to form in the Abramelin thread.
It was stated that women should be excluded from the Abramelin working.
It was remarked upon about that this was a prevalent attitude in Western esoteric traditions.
I maintain (whether right or wrong) that this practice takes place all around the world and that Magic can be dictated by the sex of the user. Women and Men handle/channel energy differently....
So, what are your thoughts?
Is this merely an attitude foisted off on us by the patriarchal church? Or does it stem from something alittle more basic?
Do tell us your opinions, theories or thoughts about this! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)


--------------------
Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

~The Sacred Magick Management

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post


 
Reply to this topicStart new topic
Replies
Goibniu
post Nov 17 2009, 12:18 AM
Post #2


Zelator
Group Icon
Posts: 407
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Canada
Reputation: 10 pts




In Gardenerian Wicca, only women are allowed to do the ritual Drawing Down the Moon. This does not mean that a man wouldn't be able to (Alexandrians do a ritual for men called Drawing Down the Sun), but that is is akin to heresy. I'm sure that there are rituals for women only in other belief systems; I just mention DDM because I am familiar with it.

It is a bit more complicated than saying that men are yang and women are yin. It is about an active process, not like something that you can take a static look at. Let me put it this way, you could put me in a room with someone, turn off the lights and blindfold me, tie my hands behind my back (kinky aint it) and I could be able to sense if it is a man or a woman. It wouldn't be because men are more yang and women are more yin. I've met some rather yin men and yang women, but their energy is male or female. It might take a few minutes for me to get a good read on the person, but I'm sure it could be done.


--------------------
Don't worry. It'll only seem kinky the first time.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

Vagrant Dreamer
post Nov 17 2009, 03:49 PM
Post #3


Practicus
Group Icon
Posts: 1,184
Age: N/A
Gender: Male
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Reputation: 51 pts




QUOTE(Goibniu @ Nov 17 2009, 01:18 AM) *

In Gardenerian Wicca, only women are allowed to do the ritual Drawing Down the Moon. This does not mean that a man wouldn't be able to (Alexandrians do a ritual for men called Drawing Down the Sun), but that is is akin to heresy. I'm sure that there are rituals for women only in other belief systems; I just mention DDM because I am familiar with it.

It is a bit more complicated than saying that men are yang and women are yin. It is about an active process, not like something that you can take a static look at. Let me put it this way, you could put me in a room with someone, turn off the lights and blindfold me, tie my hands behind my back (kinky aint it) and I could be able to sense if it is a man or a woman. It wouldn't be because men are more yang and women are more yin. I've met some rather yin men and yang women, but their energy is male or female. It might take a few minutes for me to get a good read on the person, but I'm sure it could be done.


Also lets not forget that humans are part of nature, also it's easy for us to think that we are somehow transcendent of it. We are not.

Nature is an unfathomable process of energetic changes, a continuous differentiation of the original Source, however you want to call it. The chinese in particular grasped this on a very interesting level and their entire system of mysticism is based on changes in that energy that occur in nature (Yi Jing, book of Changes). In this system energy (chi) is described as undergoing changes between differing states in different materials, and that these materials will therefore foster their special kind of changes in other systems - hence the system of chinese herbal medicine (not strictly herbal, per say). This same system is expressed in chinese occult work as well.

The strength of this particular system, and the way in which it complements other systems of energy mechanics, is because it is understood from the beginning that there is one basic energy which undergoes changes in different ways, under different conditions. This can be applied to western energetic mechanics as well as we look at four elemental energies (fifth, Spirit/Akasa is more along the lines of the original substrate) and how they shift from one element to the other, and we can see this in alchemical and natural processes if we learn to think in terms of energetic changes rather than thinking in terms of solid-energy states. Both are correct in their way, and useful, but when we consider how, for instance, men and women handle energy, what we're really discussing is what kind of natural changes occur in energy in men and women.

Those changes are different, fundamentally, in men and women. That is what we really mean when we say that men and women handle energy differently. That doesn't mean that only women can utilize Moon energy, for instance, or that only men can utilize Sun energy - it just means that when held, these energies will act differently in a man than a woman, because of the natural energetic changes that are ongoing in both.

From a yin/yang standpoint, remember that yin and yang are relative terms. If you draw a line and bisect it, you can say one side in yin in relation to the other side being yang. If you maintain the same gradient and again bisect one side or the other then between those two segments one side in yin in relation to the other being yang - even though both parts might be one half of the line originally labeled 'yin'. All energetic concepts can be divided infinitely into yin and yang aspects - every yang aspect is part yin part yang, and the same for Yin aspects as well.

The question of difference is in the tendancy for energy to process in each respective gender in ways particular to that gender - the same quality of difference exists between the changes found in humans vs. individual animals, plants, substances, etc. And in each of those other categories the same difference in process is found between the male and female aspects. From an alchemical view, even minerals have male and female parts in which energy is processed differently.

While it is granted that any two individuals can utilize the same ritual and get results that are similar in their aim but differing in quality and in how they come about; it is likewise seen that if a man and woman do the same ritual they also can get the same results which are similar in their outcome - but the qualitative difference in what changes will be initiated to bring about those aims will be obvious when compared. This isn't a matter of females getting things one way and males getting things another way or how they do that from a behavioral standpoint (none of this is about behavioral trends or 'norms', etc.) - it has to do with natural processes of energy.

Describing it in more specific terms becomes very difficult, for the same reason that describing any energetic change is difficult - there isn't sufficient universal language for it, these are things that can be observed and experienced, but are still not in the realm of 'common' experience that we all share equally. Certain traditions and groups have attempted to do just that, but even then their terminology is specified. When we learn, say, the word 'cup' we have to be shown a cup to attach the word to a solid concept that will be universal for everyone - in any language there will be word comparable to the concept of a 'cup'. If you want to label the various processes of energetic change in males and females, what can you do besides tell a person that they are qualitatively different? You cannot just show a person the difference like you can show them a cup, and not everyone will have a common experience that can be compared.

In practicing energy work, I treat males and females with similar problems differently from a mechanical point of view. Men hold energy in different places naturally than women do, and in each an energetic imbalance of one sort or another can lead to further imbalances of differing natures. For a man with depression issues I will need to focus on rebalancing centers around the shoulders and chest; with women this approach does not have the same effectiveness, they must also be treated around the abdomen and pelvis. The energetic source of their depression is different depending on what kind of depression it is, and what changes are taking place differently for each kind of depression. Usually in an energy work session I can make basic assumptions based on gender alone - assumptions which have borne out to be effective time and time again, and these are assumptions that I was able to develop after several years of seeing clients for this kind of work; not biases that I was taught or conditioned to employ.

And usually when those assumptions do not apply, its not because a woman's energy system is functioning like a mans, or vice versa, but because the root imbalance is less obvious than it originally appeared to be.

If you really want to find out whether or not these basic differences are true - and you don't feel you can trust the thousands of years of experienced masters who have said as much - then you should begin to learn energy work and start exploring on your own. That, in my opinion, is the best way to really learn about the nature of energy in the human system, and by extension learn also about the function and mechanics of energy in the broader sense as well.

The relationship between energy changes and magic or ritual work is direct but subtle. It becomes more obvious the more you are able to observe those changes energetically rather than the concrete results themselves - and that in itself is a skill worth developing as magic become more fine tuned when you can actually 'see' what you're doing and how it is playing out.

peace


--------------------
The world is complicated - that which makes it up is elegantly simplistic, but infinitely versatile.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post


Posts in this topic
bym   Women and Men   Nov 7 2009, 09:15 AM
Darkmage   I haven't found any restrictions on dealing wi...   Nov 7 2009, 11:17 PM
Kath   firstly, I wasn't offended at all bym :) sorry...   Nov 8 2009, 11:24 AM
bym   I disagree. Men and women do think differently o...   Nov 9 2009, 02:15 PM
Aphrodite   I basically dont go on my period so I guess I dont...   Nov 9 2009, 07:52 PM
Acid09   Well from my back ground in psychology I know that...   Nov 9 2009, 09:43 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   Disclaimer: The following sounds more biased I thi...   Nov 9 2009, 11:18 PM
Mchawi   Wow... since when did a sacred magick thread blow ...   Nov 14 2009, 10:05 PM
Aphrodite   I dont think men and women think differently (that...   Nov 10 2009, 01:07 AM
Vagrant Dreamer   I dont think men and women think differently (tha...   Nov 10 2009, 09:51 AM
Kath   sweeping generalizations are almost always wrong, ...   Nov 10 2009, 02:38 AM
esoterica   there is a conspiracy theory that some woman of po...   Nov 10 2009, 10:31 AM
Kath   this is an issue of dogma clashing with reality. ...   Nov 10 2009, 01:18 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   this is an issue of dogma clashing with reality. ...   Nov 10 2009, 08:24 PM
bym   Greetings! Yes....I suppose that I could have ...   Nov 10 2009, 02:14 PM
Darkmage   Saying that men and women handle energy differentl...   Nov 10 2009, 08:05 PM
Aphrodite   Here's just one of many studies about how man...   Nov 10 2009, 09:46 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   How do scientist know for sure that I think more ...   Nov 10 2009, 11:32 PM
bym   It appears that this topic is too inflamatory to e...   Nov 10 2009, 11:28 PM
Darkmage   Let's hear about why men were considered to be...   Nov 10 2009, 11:56 PM
Goibniu   I have to agree that men and women process energy ...   Nov 10 2009, 11:58 PM
Aphrodite   I haven't much other comment because I am no...   Nov 11 2009, 01:52 AM
Darkmage   Unless the women is a virgin. The whole “women ...   Nov 11 2009, 02:32 AM
Vagrant Dreamer   That's an interesting point. At that time, eve...   Nov 11 2009, 07:29 AM
Darkmage   That's an interesting point. At that time, ev...   Nov 11 2009, 08:28 AM
Bb3   Let me go ahead and say I've got absolutely no...   Nov 14 2009, 06:45 AM
Kath   Let me go ahead and say I've got absolutely n...   Nov 14 2009, 03:13 PM
bym   Greetings! Just a quiet reiteration upon the o...   Nov 14 2009, 11:37 PM
The_Seeker   I think the statement that men and women think or ...   Nov 15 2009, 05:09 PM
Goibniu   Some of us can 'read' energy as it flows t...   Nov 15 2009, 09:20 PM
The_Seeker   Some of us can 'read' energy as it flows ...   Nov 16 2009, 11:41 AM
Goibniu   Yeah, what he said. lol   Nov 17 2009, 07:00 PM
Mchawi   The discussion has become too broad... if you excu...   Nov 18 2009, 09:57 AM
Mchawi   ... ok, didn't have time to say much back ther...   Nov 18 2009, 05:50 PM
Kath   well *I* agree with ya Mchawi :)   Nov 19 2009, 06:17 AM
Aphrodite   I also agree with Mchawi! :Laie_58:   Nov 19 2009, 02:13 PM
Darkmage   Amen Mchawi. :thumbsup:   Nov 19 2009, 02:43 PM
bym   Yes....what your point was/is is not the reason wh...   Nov 19 2009, 03:40 PM
Aphrodite   I don’t see why we can’t talk about it, anyone wit...   Nov 19 2009, 05:55 PM
Goibniu   It is beginning to become a "he said", ...   Nov 19 2009, 09:32 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   I've had many similar experiences to Goibniu, ...   Nov 19 2009, 10:21 PM
Aphrodite   I think the issue here is how we view energy. Ther...   Nov 20 2009, 01:35 AM
bym   YES! This addresses the discussion Aphrodite...   Nov 20 2009, 08:05 AM
Darkmage   BYM--in those days, living to your age would have ...   Nov 20 2009, 10:05 AM
Kath   much of this debate is caused by one side thinking...   Nov 20 2009, 02:45 PM
Darkmage   Do you, personally, feel that the restrictions out...   Nov 20 2009, 05:53 PM
bym   This is what I get for voicing my opinion about ...   Nov 20 2009, 05:19 PM
Kath   This is what I get for voicing my opinion about N...   Nov 21 2009, 02:46 AM
Mchawi   Apologies if anyone assumed I was talking about ne...   Nov 21 2009, 07:49 PM
Vilhjalmr   Let me put it this way, you could put me in a roo...   Nov 24 2009, 09:42 PM
bym   Ah yes.....the grand occult equalizer! How pat...   Nov 25 2009, 09:06 AM
Vilhjalmr   Ah yes.....the grand occult equalizer! How pa...   Nov 25 2009, 12:57 PM
bym   The Randi challenge is based upon reproduceable sc...   Nov 25 2009, 04:35 PM
Vilhjalmr   The Randi challenge is based upon reproduceable s...   Nov 25 2009, 11:00 PM

Closed
Topic Notes
Reply to this topicStart new topic

Collapse

Similar Topics

Topic Title Replies Topic Starter Views Last Action
Copper Levels In Women (clipped From Earlier Post) 26 sirius666 23,593 Apr 4 2011, 07:07 PM
Last post by: Musky Tusk
Copper Levels In Women (clipped From Earlier Post) 0 sirius666 0 Feb 7 2011, 06:54 PM
Last post by: Vagrant Dreamer
Jaguar Women 8 bym 2,904 Oct 6 2009, 06:33 AM
Last post by: xXDaemonReignXx
The Women Of My Dreams 2 Hoath 2,426 Mar 19 2007, 02:53 PM
Last post by: Acid09

2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 

Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st September 2024 - 09:35 AM