QUOTE(☞Tomber☜ @ Sep 8 2010, 01:20 PM)
Ah well I'm going to reply to all this as best I can. First to deal with what Vagrant said about all that good killing stuff being in the Torah/Old Testament, Jesus strictly upholds it:
“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.”-Jesus Matthew 5:17-18
He did, however, abolish most of the sacrificial elements involved on the majority of Leviticus, both for the priestly class and the common religious man. So, he did destroy some of the law.
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Yes it is a frustrating position to take when there are "Christians" that murder doctors and gays. God is extremely punishing and does seem to leave a major part of dealing out that punishment to his people. I don't go around killing people but if God wanted something done and explicitly said it, I would do it. But I choose my religion based on the differences. It did not make sense that there had to be any act I physically had to do to go to Heaven. So I choose the only one that didn't require it. That's not the only reason but it is a big separation from all the others.
Buddhism, some sects, for instance, does not require a go between or physical acts. It requires of you only a spiritual change and an honest effort to uphold the 8 noble truths.
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Also pick it after you give it a shot. I really don't care what anyone says on this but if you do not give it a chance you really have no right to say it doesn't work for you. You have a right to not accept it or argue it but saying it is not right when Christian leaders explain again and again it is an undeniable subjective experience (Lewis, Bounds). That is how you choose a side. Why on earth would I stick to this faith when I see all the perfectly reasonable arguments against it? Not to be stuck up but it is not that you see something I don't but that I am seeing something you do not. If you give God/Jesus a honest one time fair shot at your heart and it doesn't work out then you have done enough and don't need to go farther. God will keep it, because He wants it so bad. You can even justify giving Him this chance by then ruling out forever Christianity. But that will not happen, because God is not going to pass that up. Maybe if you don't give your entire heart/mind/soul during the trial period but just honestly get down and pray. This is why many people become Christians after a breakdown. They need God. When you need something you don't hold anything back.
That is my challenge to anyone who is against Christianity. If it doesn't work out, then quit it you won't have lost that much but you will have gained a new perspective at the minimum.
I was raised first Mormon, then Babtist. By the time I was old enough to make up my own mind, I was a kind of mix of protestant denominations, and the church we attended at the time was a 'non-denominational' christian church. We had a really phenomenal minister who knew the bible cover to cover it seemed like, and had put genuine effort into studying greek and hebrew so that he could get a very thorough perspective on the holy book of his faith. I really did like him and to date he's one of the few true christians I've personally known. He gave me a similar speech one time when I was first considering moving on from religion all together. Not verbatim, but in essence it was "
Try this: keep an open mind and heart, and for just a little while live life as though you really do have a savior and Jesus Christ, and that God really is watching over you and protecting you. Pray like you're really talking to your father, face to face, and live like you want to make him proud of you."
So, for a couple of months I thought, I am comfortable here, I know these people, my whole family is christian, and all the grimoires talk about the christian God. I was already getting into hebrew mysticism at the time and to this very day I enjoy kabbalistic symbolism, and am more familiar with it, than any other symbol set. So I did this, and prayed as earnestly as i knew how to, and I did so every day more or less, and I opened my heart to the possibility that if there was a Christ out there, and a God just waiting for me to come to him, then by all means, move me to know it.
Well, the Christian God apparently didn't take that opportunity. Now, I didn't feel I had wasted time, it was a very powerful exercise in faith. But, I was not drawn into the flock. Fast forward several years, I have begun to practice meditation at that point every day, I have developed a new (for me) idea of divinity, and spend time over the course of the day opening myself up to this entirely non-religious idea of a divine spirit. I don't need to worship, but I do give thanks out of sincere gratitude; I don't need to keep precepts because it doesn't judge me, I keep precepts because I want to honor the actions and the manifestations of this divinity. I don't need a holy book, because it lets me know what I need to know. It doesn't need a history, it doesn't need a law. And it doesn't need anything from me at all. There's no way to please it, no way to anger it, it is always pleased, it is pure compassionate radiance of a scale and degree that cannot be expressed. I bathe in its light, it fills me with peace when I allow it to, it always steers me safely on my course.
I found the Divine in the absence of religion. I experience it constantly, it doesn't have a mythos or a name. I found it by searching myself, and through myself everything else. I have had loss of ego experiences both on and off drugs, I have experienced spiritual fire, ecstatic consciousness, and degrees of union with my Divinity. I did not need to be saved by Christ to have these experiences, I did not need to pray to any god with a name. My Divinity has come to me as many Gods, and as no Gods. My Divinity has come to me as a Person, as an Bird, as a Beast, as a Tree, and as Myself. My God is self-evident, needs no supremacy, or sacrifices, or anything at all. Because it is Divinity. Since then, I have come to believe that any God that requires anything of its followers, is no God at all. The God of Abraham and Isaac requires faith and obedience from his followers, or he sends you to hell. Sometimes just one hell, sometimes lots of different hells. Those holy books are very clear on that subject. My Divinity has made it clear that there is no heaven or hell. There is only Union, and safety, and we are not ever really separated from it at all.
I gave the Christian God an honest try, both as an innocent child and as a hopeful young man. I gave the Jewish god a perhaps slightly less earnest try, but then I had already given Christ a chance at that point and he promised to personally save me. Jewish God didn't even promise that.
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Religious tolerance is not something I like. Tolerance does not stem from religious passion. In that respect I understand the bombing of the towers. I don't like it at all and think it deserves much more than the weak attack we gave back, but that is all secondary. Passion does not equal ignorance. Faith does not equal ignorance. Religious intolerance yes... racial bigotry? He says nothing about race. White Muslims are just as wrong as Black or Brown or Blue ones.
There is a difference between Religious Passion and Spiritual Passion, so I will say right up front that to me there is a difference there. And religious passion is a passionate belief and execution of one's chosen religion. Passion may not equal ignorance, but it can, and often does, foment it. Passion can overcome reason and understanding, it can cast a shadow over wisdom. Racial bigotry was my own personal opinion on his motivations - the only bigotry demonstrated is that towards Islam, that is true. If he is anything like the hundreds of 'passionate' christians I have known, constantly, since the towers, then he is likely amongst those that assume all middle easterners are muslim. The general american attitude towards islam has not been isolated specifically to practicing muslims - it has been extended to the majority of those with middle eastern races in their recent family tree. This has been a huge new issue in racism since that time that has extended up into the government itself. There is racial tension here, and whether or not his intent is to poke white and black muslims in the eye as well - and he will - the result here in the states will manifest largely as racial tension, not religious tension. You cannot always tell, especially with liberal muslims, what a person's religion is just by looking at them. Race is the easiest difference to spot, which is why it is the most common prejudice. Prejudice driven by and fomented by religious passion gone wild.
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I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts. ~Psalms 119:100
The Bible gives the potential for so much more development than anything else because it deals directly with communicating with God. I do several magic rituals daily for practice and growth along with working to strengthen my beginning astral traveling (thanks again for the tips Vagrant) and I can say from having direct experience with both that God has given me so much more. And it is harder. Magic is a walk in the park compared to what God demands. Magic is open to about any idea any lifestyle but to get the specific and many blessing of God a total lifestyle change is required. I understand not following Christianity because it is too hard (which Jesus came and made a whole lot easier) but not trying it because it is too easy is a mistake in case anybody though that.
In the absence of christianity, or any religion for that matter, a focused lifestyle of intentionally virtuous thought and deed, keeping to natural social morality and treating others the way you wish to be treated, is not only tough, but will also enrich one's life unimaginably. Religion may be an excuse for this, but that excuse is not necessary. There are a plethora of virtuous atheists who believe in being good people just because it's good, and for no religious reasons at all. The classic statement (and it is classic) that people do not choose (insert religion) because it is to hard, is an ego ploy used constantly in order to entice people to say "I could be a christian, watch!" Living according to the christian precepts is much easier than being a good person because you just want to be a good person. I made my lifestyle changes out of a desire to honor myself, my fellow human beings, and the incredibly intricate and beautiful work of creation around and within me. Not because I will be punished if I don't. And it is hard. But, it is more enjoyable knowing there is no threat of damnation, and knowing that my lifestyle is one I can be proud of because I chose it in the absence of such a threat.
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Jesus did not change the Torah. He upheld it. He explained what it meant, how it was supposed to be used. He explained what God really cared for was the love and devotion of someone, not elaborate rituals. Obviously he wanted them but He explains that it is better to give God your heart than anything else at all. Jews may not accept Jesus, but Jesus explains the meaning that constant thought and daily application of the law should make apparent. I expect to see many Jews in Heaven to. Including Jesus.
Er, this is also a common christian interpretation. But, it is simply not true. Torah is very clear on God's law, and there is talk of devotion and giving one's heart to God, however the literal interpretations are of strict a strict lifestyle which is intended to be an earnest demonstration of that love and devotion. God saying, "If you love me, then you will live this way." And there is plenty of discussion about what happens if you do such and such a thing and do not ritually cleanse yourself in some way. You can go to one of many hells in Judaism, and you will if you do all manner of apparently insignificant things. By Orthodox Jewish standards, and Christ's as well if he did not intend for the law to be changed, all christians are unfit for Gods presence. Jesus has been widely interpreted by lots of folks, all of them slanted towards the justification of not needing all the elaborate rules and regulations of the Judaic religious structure. Which is fine in my eyes because whatever your religion is is what your religion is just... call a spade a spade. Being a Christian is a walk in the park compared to being Orthodox Jewish.
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I feel one of the main points for not burning the Quarans is flawed: that it should not happen because it would provoke retribution. I feel that is sort of like taking the long route from English to Science every day because a bully that picks on you is in your way. It isn't right. Burning Qurans is like saying "Hey I'm here and I'll do what I want, and this is what I think of you..." and flipping that person off. That is fine with me. Be bold. Take a stand. Do what you will but at least go about it with some passion.
There's no violation of anything holy and sacred to the bully when you flip him off in the hallway.
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Edit: also about Christians having a "holier than thou" attitude. Real Christians should not. God makes that clear but it is natural for people to act that way by accident when they have the complete belief that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I try to be tolerant, helpful, and avoid being rude but really I do think I am right and you are wrong. I try to go about it nice and not bring it up but you can't 100% believe this stuff and not think that. Christians have to be intolerant to some degree. I hope this makes sense like I mean it too.
I and others, I think, knew that going into it. The problem is that there are so many ways to get to the spiritual experience, christians do not have a monopoly on it (though, honestly, if they were right then they kind of would). Every culture has a path to this experience. It is intrinsic to human culture and consciousness. Even atheists instinctively gravitate towards unifying concepts representing something bigger, some connecting overarching experience. Because you got there through christianity, you believe it is the correct faith. I don't think you could, but were you to put christianity away and 'turn your back on jesus' as it were, and then found your way to another spiritual experience through another religion, your views on religion and the spiritual experience might change. But, you won't because why bother? If you already have it, assuming you do, then there's no need to look further. This is a great flaw in human nature. A man who finds a quick route to the grocery store will not usually actively seek out a different route just to see how many ways he can get there. He already knows a good way. And sometimes he'll even argue with another person about which way is faster/safer/etc. Mathematicians argue over who has the correct model. Physicists argue over who has the correct philosophy. Philosophers also argue that but in a different way. Doctors argue over diagnosis. Teachers argue over the best way to teach... the list goes on. It isn't just religion. Everyone has a tendency to think that there way is the best. But, because it is such a widespread element of human nature, well... you'd think that it would be easy to see how that might play into religious culture as well, and how it might be equally as flawed there as it is anywhere else.
peace
Us Church To Burn Qurans On 9/11, This is disgusting...
monkman418 Us Church To Burn Qurans On 9/11 Sep 7 2010, 03:06 PM
Sep 7 2010, 03:06 PM
