Seeking A Mentor Options

I was wondering if anyone here teaches the system to individual students, I am new to this system but have felt a strong interest or pull if you will to get involved in it, my main problem is that I don't have any of the books and at present cannot afford to buy them, and I have read that the pdf versions have mispronunciations? In any event I would ordinarily not persue something under these circumstances but I am feeling a strong attraction to the system that I cannot explain, as I have never worked with it at all.

I have spent time with some other systems such as Initiation into Hermetics and Donald Michael Kraigs Modern Magick, and while they did give me some good theoretical insight into the world of magick, I just never felt a connection, my work under those systems just felt lifeless and clinical at times, so here I am, seeking a teacher and I will await any replies to this topic, I would also like to know why I feel such a pull toward the system practically out of nowhere if anyone can offer an explanation.

Wow. Good job helping him out guys. With all the information you just rattled off, I might just get myself a Necronomicon too. (Anyone seen the Evil Dead movies? LOL)

Maybe we should start a Necronomicon club, and decide to open this or that gate week by week and report our experiences. Might cause the end of the world, but it would be fun while it lasted...

I was also wondering what kind of bowl you guys use for the burning of offerings, do you use a clay bowl? And when you are instructed to burn bread or nettle you just use a match or lighter? Also when it comes to the offering of fresh bread do you guys just use regular loaf bread that you buy from the store or do you actually make it fresh? Sorry about all of the questions I am sure you all have answered them before many times.

Oh and I checked panpipes.com and yes they do have nettle very cheap prices, thank you for the site monkman it seems to have just about everything one would need and at great prices.

Awesome, yeah, panpipes is great in the incense/herbs/oils department.

I don't think you need to have any specific type of material for an offering bowl, though clay is inexpensive and easy to come by on ebay...factors which also probably made it a popular choice of material in ancient Sumeria. Some magical tools do use specific materials that line up with elemental or other attributions; I doubt this has anything to do with it in this case, but if you're worried clay is cheap.

Use a match or a lighter, unless one or the other bothers you too much. I started doing magick with matches because it felt more "old fashioned" and therefore authentic or something, but switched to using a lighter when I ran out of matches. There is no difference, fire is fire.

Hmmm...well...I wouldn't use a loaf of Wonder bread as an offering. Many stores have a "fresh baked" section where they sell loaves of bread for a few bucks that they baked that morning, so I would try that. Learning to bake bread is very easy though if you want to go that route. What probably matters most is that one is using a nice loaf of bread.

I would suggest sticking to whatever the book calls for. That way if things don't go the way they are supposed to, you can know that it wasn't because you didn't have the correct tools. And in some books, the various tools are specific and intended for some kind of protection. Metals and various plants, etc., have been long associated with particular uses, and substituting other materials may either produce no effects, or may altar the outcome of the ceremonies in ways you don't want.

Start altering the ceremonies after you have enough experience and knowledge with them as they are, and have had the opportunity to start inquiring of the entities involved personally how much leeway there is - and then keep in mind that they might prefer you be less protected or otherwise in charge.

A copper dagger, a copper crown, an earthen vessel (clay or stone), fresh bread (it takes very little ingredients to make bread, and it is not difficult, and you can make a small amount just for this purpose for less than a dollar per loaf), and a little bit of space is not a lot to ask. Until you get up to the need for gold and silver, most everything in the system is easily acquired. Look for sheets of copper for the dagger and the crown. You can by a rectangular sheet of 'craft' copper thick enough to use as a dagger for $20 or so online (plus a $5 metal file and a $20 set of metal sheers that you can use for other projects), and the same place will sell thinner sheets for less money that can be used to create the crown (which you can secure into a circular shape with an awl driven through in the back in three or four holes that you can use the same metal file from the dagger project to file down).

If you want to explore the system, then take the time to get the appropriate materials. If it takes a little longer to do it right, it will be worth it if you get what you want out of it.

peace

In fact I am attempting to get everything as precise as I can, however I have read some posts from various users here that suggest certain substitutions are not harmful, I cannot imagine that if I am being urged to involve myself in the system, that I would be begrudged for not having every single thing down to the most exacting detail. For example I got the idea of using a paper mache mask as the crown, from reading one of Ashnooks posts, and I understand that he is something of an authority on the system.

If what I have is not suitable and does not yield good results I will simply set the system aside until such a time that I can afford to be that precise in my workings.

I would suggest sticking to whatever the book calls for. That way if things don't go the way they are supposed to, you can know that it wasn't because you didn't have the correct tools. And in some books, the various tools are specific and intended for some kind of protection. Metals and various plants, etc., have been long associated with particular uses, and substituting other materials may either produce no effects, or may altar the outcome of the ceremonies in ways you don't want.

Start altering the ceremonies after you have enough experience and knowledge with them as they are, and have had the opportunity to start inquiring of the entities involved personally how much leeway there is - and then keep in mind that they might prefer you be less protected or otherwise in charge.

A copper dagger, a copper crown, an earthen vessel (clay or stone), fresh bread (it takes very little ingredients to make bread, and it is not difficult, and you can make a small amount just for this purpose for less than a dollar per loaf), and a little bit of space is not a lot to ask. Until you get up to the need for gold and silver, most everything in the system is easily acquired. Look for sheets of copper for the dagger and the crown. You can by a rectangular sheet of 'craft' copper thick enough to use as a dagger for $20 or so online (plus a $5 metal file and a $20 set of metal sheers that you can use for other projects), and the same place will sell thinner sheets for less money that can be used to create the crown (which you can secure into a circular shape with an awl driven through in the back in three or four holes that you can use the same metal file from the dagger project to file down).

If you want to explore the system, then take the time to get the appropriate materials. If it takes a little longer to do it right, it will be worth it if you get what you want out of it.

peace

In fact I am attempting to get everything as precise as I can, however I have read some posts from various users here that suggest certain substitutions are not harmful, I cannot imagine that if I am being urged to involve myself in the system, that I would be begrudged for not having every single thing down to the most exacting detail. For example I got the idea of using a paper mache mask as the crown, from reading one of Ashnooks posts, and I understand that he is something of an authority on the system.

If what I have is not suitable and does not yield good results I will simply set the system aside until such a time that I can afford to be that precise in my workings.

A balance needs to be struck between practicing magick according to the text and working within the boundaries of one's limitations in the modern world. Some items, like the book itself obviously, can't be done without. In other cases, it is acceptable to substitute (or even omit) the tools used in ritual.

Probably the best general rule on this is to understand the purpose of the various tools, gestures, and accessories going into a ritual; as long as the rituals remain intact, with all objects maintaining their purpose, there shouldn't be a problem.

I think the BIGGER issue here is whether or not we become too anxious that "something will go wrong" or that "we won't be doing it right" if the ritual isn't copied from the manual to a T. I would also be wrong to say that one shouldn't be careful about following the instructions, but I don't think a goal of "perfect emulation" is sufficient to ensure that the ceremonies will function as they were intended. Understanding the ritual itself is key first and foremost.

I think the BIGGER issue here is whether or not we become too anxious that "something will go wrong" or that "we won't be doing it right" if the ritual isn't copied from the manual to a T. I would also be wrong to say that one shouldn't be careful about following the instructions, but I don't think a goal of "perfect emulation" is sufficient to ensure that the ceremonies will function as they were intended. Understanding the ritual itself is key first and foremost.

I think that perhaps there is an element of cultural empathy involved as well. These rituals were, supposedly, created by summerians, or possibly babylonians depending on whose time line you're reading. These are both cultures who believed in these gods in a very real way, and did not believe that those all powerful beings would appreciate the 'effort' to execute their holy rituals properly and bestow their boon on the righteous heart who calls them. Like many cultures of the time, religion and law were the same thing. Magic as part of a religion had very specific laws and taboos to be observed, and not deviated from by a hair. It's fairly likely that if the Necronomicon text did originate in summeria, the common person is not supposed to even read it, much less use the rituals contained in it - that would be for the holy men of that age to do, and they would not have allowed just anyone to do it.

Understanding the ritual is impossible - not just difficult - if you don't dig into the culture as well, and with these cultures there's not a lot to dig into, so you have to begin looking at other surrounding cultures that we know more about, and then start understanding the mindset of the age, etc.

If you're going to approach this book as though Marduk is listening to your calls, as though Inanna really did descend into the underworld and return, as if Tiamat very well may swallow you up; that is, as a manual of spiritual AND magical practice, then treat it the way the summerians would have. That's what Marduk expects of his priests. If the cost to the individual hoping to get something from the book is an extra $100 - My goetia quest cost nearly $2000 as a comparison, this book IS a minimalist approach in the grand scheme - not just to avoid things 'going wrong' but as a way of showing the all knowing entities it is supposed to connect you to, then isn't it a little disrespectful to try it off the cuff with 'whatever I can manage' first, and then fulfill the requirements later on if that doesn't pan out?

The copper used in the dagger of inanna, for instance, was, to the summerian's, probably not just a convenient material for them - copper was precious, getting it was difficult, people DIED mining copper, and kings demanded it by the cartful to make valuable objects, religious icons, etc. Gold was reserved for actual representations of deities and the adornments of kings - because kings were considered incarnations of gods. There are virtues to copper that are considered to be reflective of it's subtle nature. A clay construct or wooden knife painted coppery red is not the same thing.

Ashnook and Edunpanna have gone through the book back to front a thousand times probably, and both consider themselves priests of Enki, both of them have walked the gates and worked with the names. Neither has much of anything to show for it, both talk a lot about crazy astral battles, tearing up people's souls, etc. I haven't met ashnook personally, but I've known a lot of occultists, some a little on the new agey side, some crystal toting hippies, and some very serious about their work. The most successful and reliable always seem to be the ones that take the culture behind the magic seriously.

If you're going to work some kind of poorly constructed magical tradition like Golden Dawn Hermetica, Chaos Magik, etc., then by all means add in and take out whatever you want, those are systems not intended to actually produce the kinds of miraculous things ancient magicians and priests expected. And you can still get something from those systems. If you're going to summon a deadly watcher, walk the gate of Inanna, and invoke one of the fifty names, you should approach the system with the kind of seriousness those things imply.

I worked the Necronomicon, it worked for me, I put it down. My experiences do not coincide with Ashnook and Edunpanna's. What I experienced with it was far from the flavor that surrounds it due to Lovecraft and the media, but was not pleasant at all in any case. The summerians and babylonians were a brutal, severe pair of cultures, and their magic and religion are equally as severe and brutal. Take that into consideration.

peace

War!

Sorry to see that you agree with Imperial Arts on the issue of materials. Apparently, the rest of us aren't doing real magick, and I laugh at that.

...and for all of your emphasis on "cultural sensitivity," I find it interesting that Sumeria and Babalon are condemned as brutal and severe peoples with an equally severe religion! I don't recall their myths being any more brutal than any other group of people. And surely you have read about the feats of civilization, including stable housing and nutrition, that reached the average man in these cultures? And what about the great works of art and the feats of learning and science that these groups were able to achieve? They were hardly savage! But oh, how the white man has learned to demonize the brutal and unknown "savage" of the other world! What a convenient blank slate for us magicians to use to project our darkest fantasies! Vagrant, I'm surprised at you, for this and for the dig at the Golden Dawn and Kaos magic, apparently some paths are better than others. Or did the ancient powerful magicians from the days of yore also look down on other groups and their gods? Actually, that's right, they did compare the power of their gods to those of other people to assure their power and superiority...and I suppose this is a necessary prerequisite as well?

I'm not convinced that the Necronomicon is an authentic document dating from the Sumerians/Babylonians in any case. Though I feel sorry for any god who can't keep up with the currency and materials of the day, requesting an old bronze dagger instead of titanium!

This post has been edited by monkman418: Jan 31 2011, 09:13 PM

I certainly did not mean to come across as willy nilly about working with the system, and I am not out to be a cheapskate don't get me wrong, in fact several things I am purchasing/acquiring are in line with what the book calls for, I have no skill with metal crafting however, nor do I know of anyone in my area who does, so I am merely attempting to do the best I can under my circumstance.

I do understand where you are coming from Vagrant, in the sense that all work done should be given proper respect.

By the way, when you mention producing miraculous things, what exactly do you have to show from your own experience? I'm not mocking you here I am genuinely curious.


Also I agree with monkman from the reading I have done on Sumerian culture I have seen no indication that their religion was any more or less brutal than any other old time religion. Again though when it comes to this system I admit I am out of my depth as I have not really gotten started with it as of yet.

Sorry to see that you agree with Imperial Arts on the issue of materials. Apparently, the rest of us aren't doing real magick, and I laugh at that.

Real magic can be done with a prayer or a thought. Real magic does not depend on the materials used. Executing a formula follows an algorithm though, and if you are not following the algorithm magic may happen - but it may not happen the way you expected or intended, and it may not be as efficacious as you need or want it to be. Laugh all you want. When it comes to meditation or something like that, materials are inconsequential, and if what you are looking for is spiritual enlightenment, then go for it.

...and for all of your emphasis on "cultural sensitivity," I find it interesting that Sumeria and Babalon are condemned as brutal and severe peoples with an equally severe religion! I don't recall their myths being any more brutal than any other group of people. And surely you have read about the feats of civilization, including stable housing and nutrition, that reached the average man in these cultures? And what about the great works of art and the feats of learning and science that these groups were able to achieve? They were hardly savage! But oh, how the white man has learned to demonize the brutal and unknown "savage" of the other world! What a convenient blank slate for us magicians to use to project our darkest fantasies! Vagrant, I'm surprised at you, for this and for the dig at the Golden Dawn and Kaos magic, apparently some paths are better than others. Or did the ancient powerful magicians from the days of yore also look down on other groups and their gods? Actually, that's right, they did compare the power of their gods to those of other people to assure their power and superiority...and I suppose this is a necessary prerequisite as well?

Brutal and Severe do not equal savage, and in any case savage does not equal a lack of civilization. They reached those points, in their age, because of their strict adherence to their religion/law. I didn't condemn them, and they certainly weren't the only brutal ancient civilization. Don't assume I'm judging them by painting them with a realistic color. In today's modernized world we can afford to be all universal love and freedom (as long as your sufficiently strong enough and on the right soil, of course) and let everyone follow whatever God they want to, but at that age that spelled the end of your culture, and your culture was what made you strong enough to survive when everyone wanted to kill one another off and take each other's land. When a harvest was short for too many years in a row, people were sold as slaves for fewer mouths to feed, not out of cruelty but for the good of the whole because genetically engineering wheat to produce more grain wasn't an option.

As for golden dawn? It's a system based largely on kabbalah, using corrupted information. Their application of enochian is haphazard as well, they tended to take things and move them around to suit their comforts. To date I don't know of a golden dawn magician who's magic works reliably and efficiently every time. Most people just use their system as a structure at this point and hang whatever drywall and curtains on it seems appropriate to them. My own system is based on theirs, but with corrected kabbalistic symbolism drawn from accurate translations of many of the same sources they translated poorly on their own.

And Chaos magic - how do you even define a jab at that 'system'? If altering your subconscious through suggestion is what you consider magic, then it works for that. I've been threatened by chaos magicians in the past, and a handful of others that technically only fit under chaos magic but deny that label as well, of course, and so far all i can figure is that the system is so bare that you might as well make up your own system because getting a concrete effect out of that one is a crapshoot.

I'm not convinced that the Necronomicon is an authentic document dating from the Sumerians/Babylonians in any case. Though I feel sorry for any god who can't keep up with the currency and materials of the day, requesting an old bronze dagger instead of titanium!

Neither am I, but the Gods and Names included were around before the book was. Beings outside of our time and space understanding of the world don't care about changing times. At some point in our own history, they handed down mandates to be followed and formulas to be executed, or they put their blessing of acceptance on those the devout brought to them.

What I suggested in the beginning was just that a practitioner treat the book as though it were, if they wanted to work with it. If you look at it as Chaos Magic that will work just because you believe it will, then expect to get results accordingly, but don't expect to get what the book suggests. A psychological model of magic produces psychological results.

I certainly did not mean to come across as willy nilly about working with the system, and I am not out to be a cheapskate don't get me wrong, in fact several things I am purchasing/acquiring are in line with what the book calls for, I have no skill with metal crafting however, nor do I know of anyone in my area who does, so I am merely attempting to do the best I can under my circumstance.

This would be a good time and reason to learn metal crafting then. Don't be afraid to widen your skillset to meet the demands of whatever system you are working with, it is good for you and teaches you about the system. I'm not judging you at all, don't get me wrong there, I just honestly believe that any system like this operates more effectively when you treat it part as crucial and powerful as it is. If it takes a little extra time, isn't it worth it? If taking shortcuts because you don't have access to something easily, or because you need to learn something new to produce what you need, means that there is a degree of error inherently present, then why even try it that way?

By the way, when you mention producing miraculous things, what exactly do you have to show from your own experience? I'm not mocking you here I am genuinely curious.

The results of my own experiments with the Necronomicon were achieved with the full setup. I had called the Bandar, and attempted to walk the first gate in a quiet place far away from most everything where I wouldn't be disturbed.

I received a private vision during the experience, and a deity demanded my fealty. I gave it (and apparently am still paying for that) and then became violently ill for about two weeks, had vivid and usually terrifying dreams every night (and still have one dream in particular on a semi-regular basis) of that period, and then afterwards was followed by a constant sense of paranoia, heard people laughing at me quietly sometimes even when I was alone, and finally realized that my business had declined drastically and I was alienating my friends and family.

Now, other people seem to have experienced other things in that ritual and afterwards, so I don't think my case is typical, but what I do think is that either somehow the deities named therein found me wanting as a devotee, and let me know it; or that dealing with them just comes with some degree of craziness. Either way, I needed my life to be in order and magic is, for me, a part of that order. My magic was not lacking at the time, I wanted to explore the necronomicon for it's own merit and interest. So, I ritually rejected my oaths and asked for Inanna's forgiveness, and swore to never touch the rituals again if she would release me. The 'craziness' stopped immediately, and I have not touched them since that time.

From other systems, including my own which has been crafted over a long time now piece by piece, I have gained daily guidance on how to best apply my skills to gain the greatest advantage; I have a comparatively massive clientele in a city where there currently isn't a lot of money to go around and most people cut every expenditure they can; I have a healthy relationship full of open communication and honesty with not even a small argument or altercation of any kind in the two and a half years we've been together; my dreams are vivid and more and more frequently lucid and communicate significant ideas to me, many of which I have actually applied to improve my waking life to great effect; and I am on the verge of starting my own clinic. I have seen things levitate, I have read people's minds, and a handful of paltry 'supernatural' phenomena pervades my daily existence by no direct intention of my own, I think it just comes with the territory. I have discarded systems that did not work, and have taken up systems that promised results and got them. The spiritual experiences I have had I count as separate from magical work, though some of it overlaps.

Granted, I'm not interested in moving needles or lighting candles, I don't have a farm, I've never needed to raise the dead, I don't have any armies at my borders, I may have enemies but I'm not worried enough to do anything about them if they are there, and so far few people have requested my sooth-saying (although I did a better job at that than a phone-line psychic!). Some of these things seem to come about miraculously, but they are rarely subtle and the timing and consistency is more than coincidence for my own life. I do basically no marketing at all, my business is entirely word-of-mouth, and the clinic I work for created a new title and position just so that they could promote me. I even got a car, which I paid 1/4 market value for.

Also I agree with monkman from the reading I have done on Sumerian culture I have seen no indication that their religion was any more or less brutal than any other old time religion. Again though when it comes to this system I admit I am out of my depth as I have not really gotten started with it as of yet.

Again, though, you're not working a book based on any other culture. It's not, for instance, a christian book (the followers are brutal at times, the religion is not, except for the hell and damnation. Sumerian religion promises suffering in THIS life, which is far more threatening.)

peace

Vagrant, when you put things that way I can understand why you feel as you do about the work, and I must admit to a degree it has given me pause despite my urge to work with the book. Not out of fear, but if you had all the proper tools and preparations and still had a bad experience it does make me wonder, why, you were rejected by the gods. Had I been in your shoes I can only imagine the disappointed of going through that effort only to be snubbed in a sense, whereas you hear of others using subpar preparation as I had intended to do and speaking mostly of good experiences.

Out of curiosity what system do you practice, or what advice would you give to someone looking for a system to use? I actually agree with you about the Golden Dawn and Chaos Magick, even though I went through my own chaos phase at a point. I worked with the golden dawn system for two years and it just didn't take hold with me, I never had the experiences many others seemed to have and at many points I admit I experienced absolutely nothing.