Copper Levels In Women (clipped From Earlier Post), And the value of References. Options

I would like to keep everything within the realm of known science. I would love to see a QUANTITATIVE (with math - that I can read) study which validates that men have more Iron in their "system" and that women have more "copper" in their system. Are we talking copper metal, copper compounds? cuprous oxides? ... and for iron - ferrous oxides? ferrous nitrate? ferrous sulfate? ... which chemicals are we talking about here. If we are going to bring science into the discussion we should CITE the document or literature which supports the claims being made. Second, if you are going to connect magic to science please do so with some grace and courtesy to scientists who are working exclusively in the boundaries of empiricism (i.e. none of this "women have more copper (unknown compound) than men, (how much more please provide statistics numbers charts graphs analysis of variance .... anything - in what part of the human anatomy or biology was this demonstrated ?? etc.) and this is why women are connected with or identified with Venus (the planet - the archetype - my roommates bunny named Venus ... what do you mean???) AND copper (obviously not a scientific conclusion). Please do not spout facts which have no basis in the literature.

666-Sirius-666

Oestrogen and estrogen are exactly the same thing. Adding the 'O' at the beginning is a British spelling. It's not like 'its' (singular pronoun possessive) and 'it's' (a contraction for it is). Estrogens are a class of hormones, not just one, although Estradiol is the major one in humans. They tend to accelerate copper accumulation in the body; very rarely this may lead to toxicity. Men also make estrogens and women make testosterone, it's just the proportions are different in the sexes.

Men and women have roughly the same amount of copper and zinc in their bodies. Women need more during pregnancy and breastfeeding, but then, women need more nutrients across the board during pregnancy and breastfeeding, not just copper. Ceruloplasmin levels are elevated in various autoimmune diseases, primarily celiac disease and rheumatoid arthritis. Women do tend to get those more than men, but that's not the same as saying that ceruloplasmin levels are *always* elevated in women--just usually ones that happen to have RA or other AI diseases.

I looked around online and the only source I can find that states categorically that women have more copper than men is Dr. Lawrence Wilson. Most of the other sites regarding this subject parrot his information, and most of those are New Agey alternative health sites that are dubious at best. So, I placed a couple of phone calls to a couple of my docs. They told me the above information. BTW, my ob/gyn went to Yale, and my endocrinologist to Oxford. So...no offence, but I trust them over you, Vagrant. For future reference, it is wise to post your sources. You don't know what journals that people who read these posts have access to, so err on the side of caution next time and cite your references.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Feb 7 2011, 12:37 PM

Oestrogen and estrogen are exactly the same thing. Adding the 'O' at the beginning is a British spelling. It's not like 'its' (singular pronoun possessive) and 'it's' (a contraction for it is). Estrogens are a class of hormones, not just one, although Estradiol is the major one in humans. They tend to accelerate copper accumulation in the body; very rarely this may lead to toxicity. Men also make estrogens and women make testosterone, it's just the proportions are different in the sexes.

Men and women have roughly the same amount of copper and zinc in their bodies. Women need more during pregnancy and breastfeeding, but then, women need more nutrients across the board during pregnancy and breastfeeding, not just copper. Ceruloplasmin levels are elevated in various autoimmune diseases, primarily celiac disease and rheumatoid arthritis. Women do tend to get those more than men, but that's not the same as saying that ceruloplasmin levels are *always* elevated in women--just usually ones that happen to have RA or other AI diseases.

I looked around online and the only source I can find that states categorically that women have more copper than men is Dr. Lawrence Wilson. Most of the other sites regarding this subject parrot his information, and most of those are New Agey alternative health sites that are dubious at best. So, I placed a couple of phone calls to a couple of my docs. They told me the above information. BTW, my ob/gyn went to Yale, and my endocrinologist to Oxford. So...no offence, but I trust them over you, Vagrant. For future reference, it is wise to post your sources. You don't know what journals that people who read these posts have access to, so err on the side of caution next time and cite your references.

Darkmage - thank you for this very valuable and interesting information. It is great that to have this issue cleared up in a productive way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ! Vagrant - I strongly caution you against using an argument rooted in the physical sciences in order to back your magickal experience/beliefs unless you can validate your information. A serious student of the occult has enough difficulty with his or her studies; the last thing he or she needs is additional misinformation floating about.

666-Sirius-666

This post has been edited by sirius666: Feb 7 2011, 02:31 PM

Thanks for the detail about the variable spelling of estrogen - I read the word without the 'o' originally until I went back and read again, and assumed I was correcting my own misreading. I first heard this claimed during a physiology class during a discussion on trace minerals, from a nutrition standpoint.

My discussion with the doctor I treated today offered a different answer - that on average females maintain higher levels of ceruloplasmin, peaking under certain circumstances like pregnancy, but also around menstruation, specifically between 7-10 days prior. She's an endocrinology and genetics research doctor, not a medical practitioner. She went to Emory and teaches at UGA.

So, it sounds to me like there is some general disagreement on the subject among medical and scientific professionals. http://books.google.com/books?id=dWsv-_9RE...epage&q&f=false

and here: http://charles_w.tripod.com/copper2.html, referencing this: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002...ULLTEXT_PDF_REG. The first page cites the article, I didn't care to subscribe to their journal to download the article.

So with minimal effort looking at "Ceruloplasmin ratios in men and women" and "Ceruloplasmin ratios in women", I found two references, one a peer reviewed article in the Ciba Foundation Symposium, a journal relating to biochemistry and medicine.

I can't vouch for the backgrounds of the scientists involved. But we've both managed to find references for and against in some fashion.

I'm gonna take the last several posts and clip out a new thread, this is way off topic.

peace