Skeptic That Evocations Ever Work, Looking for evidence Options

Hello, I am new to the forum.

I am interested in many religious pursuits. I think there are many things that have been proven to develop oneself - such as meditation. However, I suspect that everyone here that thinks they are summoning demons or angels are deluding themselves, and that in fact they are just working in their own imaginations - which may be quite fruitful imaginations.

For instance, I'm thinking of a thread where people casually talked about summoning a demon for sexual purposes. I am sorry but I believe you have an over-active imagination, and that none of those events ever happened. I've read many grimoires, and I think they exist because they are from a time in which man did not know very much, and things which are common knowledge attributable to science were simply not known then. Reading the Verum and asking for scientific knowledge won't work.

In addition, I read another thread on here where the man Lisiewski was discussed. Someone alleged that he was bunk, as he was charging $600 for pupils to learn from him. I agree with that charge, but I think if everyone here would be a little more open minded, the fact that every single group is making that charge against another group (not every single person but you know what I mean), is evidence that none of them work. Lisiewski charges Thelema, people that like the modern methods charge Lisiewski etc

If you have ever summoned a demon and asked for monetary support, and you have convinced yourself that it actually appeared, why don't you simply submit that evidence to the Randi forum for your million dollar prize? (Please note I dislike Randi and think he's totally incorrect, but you get my point).

You might wonder why I'm here, and no, it's not to troll. I am convinced of an afterlife. I believe in NDEs, and I believe in ghosts. I didn't used to believe in ghosts, but I think the evidence for them is strong based upon reports of people that I believe. So, that's why I'm here. I want to be convinced that you're all not just pretending like I think you are. I don't think you will, but I want you to.

I believe that spiritual development is the most important thing a person can do in their lifetime. My personal belief is that some of you have played too many RPGs and are merely engaging in escapism, wishful thinking.

I'm legitimately interested to hear your counters.

PS please check my intro in coffee house if you would like to know my perspective

This post has been edited by arcan: Oct 5 2011, 05:10 PM

arcan



As I know it, evocation is not about causing metaphysical entities to become physical – such that I can discern them with my body, and such that I give those entities commands for them to go about manipulating events and people in the Physical Plane. I know that is what all the novels, television shows, movies, games, etc… insist that evocation is about. I know that is what many people who tell incredible tales about their evocations insist it is about. Yet, regardless of what such popular entertainers proclaim and preach, that is not what evocation is about to me.

That means I do not deludedly believe that I am doing, and I am not trying to pass myself as doing, what fictional versions of Mages are portrayed as doing evocation.
And that means I do not evoke for the same reasons as those fictional versions of Mages.



For me, evocation is about ritually isolating an entified aspect of my mind - then either subsequently eliminating (banishing), or instead appropriately adjusting, it according to my purposes. The entire process systematically occurs as a careful cultivation of an awareness that enables me to experience, and interact with, those entities using the same analogues to physical perception which occur during intense "lucid dreaming". In fact, it could be said with accuracy that the evocation process for me is a tightly controlled and consciously directed "lucid dream" while my body is wide awake. Unless banished, the entity remains active enough for me to converse with it. The conversation enables me to analyze that entity’s effectiveness, challenges, fitness, its perspective of what’s going on in my developing microcosm of the Mental Plane, etc… and (if the situation warrants) to give it instructions (rewrite its code) to be more effective in light of what I learn. Once all that is done, I invoke the entity (and thus bring it “back online”), then return to an everyday state of consciousness and awareness and scrutinize the effect of the working.



That is no frivolous process. I cannot afford to make grevous errors, because doing so really can result with intense neurosis - even to the point of instigating severe psychosis and other categories of truly disturbed mentation. And that also is neither a game of “Let’s play pretend!” nor any other sort of casual, vague, willy nilly sort of “imagination” exercise - or whatever term is popular these days for referencing fanciful, escapist, and/or inconsequential “wool gathering”.

The entire point of evocation for me is for very finely and consciously cultivating metaphysical growth with impactful exactitude, which increases my self-mastery for engaging relationships (including others and the environment in the Physical Plane) with excellence.


So yes, evocation works for me.