No, You're Wrong., >:-( Options

Anybody else here getting tired of the people who always want to say that you're wrong?

The "above average" student who tries to use science to debate whatever they can.
The religious zealot who uses arguments such as "Well, you're going to hell. That's just the harsh reality of it."
Or maybe just the goddamn skeptics who like to deny the existence of anything above them simply because they can never get enough proof.

Makes me freaking irate.

We should all do something about these people. Any suggestions? Maybe organized genocide? Mass marginalization and eradication? War? LOL. (It's funny cause those are all basically the same thing.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

But no really. Something ought to be done about people like this. Maybe we could start a movement to pass a bill making it illegal to deny another person's beliefs, so that a person has to state that it is only their opinion. I mean really it should all be categorized as hate speech anyway. If I started saying in a public building that all Mexicans were shit, I would get arrested. Yet Christians can stand around in their Churches and belittle the beliefs of others, simply because the people who founded this country were Christian. ...They were also white. And isn't it more wrong to verbally assault someone for their beliefs than for their heritage? It's "Oh, Buddha was a fatty and you're going to hell" as compared to "I dislike you because your people have social standards that most of the rest of the world would imprison a person for."

Am I making sense to you guys? I'm saying that it's one thing to assault a person's heritage, but quite another to assault their beliefs. Yes, it is all marginalization, but one has some degree of rationale behind it (unless you're a hateful inbred).

And I was soooo not serious about starting a holocaust. I'm just making a point in the best way that I can at the moment, and would ask that the moderators not freak out over it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vagrant, I would appreciate your normal in-depth critique.

So, when it comes to conflicting belief systems, and the confrontation of "My beliefs are right, and yours are wrong" what can you say? I've had this discussion face to face a hundred times, and not once has anyone ever 'seen the light' or realized what they were doing and why it was so ridiculous. Not one religious person has ever accepted that I have experienced the Divine on my own and am perfectly happy with my spiritual understanding and it's current growth. Ever. And those that have said "Well that really is wonderful" have come right back to, "But you still can't have salvation without Christ/Allah/Jehovah/Mithra/etc." So, the conversation is not worth having, and I have, over the past couple of years, just turned everyone politely away when it comes up. The action-of-non-action is in my opinion the only productive approach because true religious belief cannot be reasoned with, cannot be corrected, cannot be made to 'see the light', cannot be understood rationally, and cannot ever be convinced that your spiritual path is enough. You cannot ever offer enough evidence, you will never change the mind of the true believer - there is literally no constructive point to having the conversation.

You're right.
For the overwhelming majority of the time, nothing can be said beyond, "I disagree", or "I don't use your belief system", etc...

Convincing, cajoling, coaxing, or otherwise attempting to persuade another to change their beliefs is almost completely futile.

I say, "almost" and not "totally" - because there are ultra rare situations where such conversations can be had in which a someone might truly consider making such a change.
Yet, for the most part, such situations remain just that - ultra rare.

So when someone proclaims to me, "You're wrong!" and/or goes on to insist "If you keep doing X then you're going to hell!" etc... from the position/perspective of their belief system (of which I am not a user) - I basically inform them that I'm right for me and keep right on truckin'. Sure, I might also go further in the convo (as outlined in my first post) with the approach I explained there.

But, in the end, whatever they say doesn't phase me for one moment.
And I continue progressing along my path according to my experience.

This post has been edited by Praxis: Dec 1 2011, 10:38 AM

I say, "almost" and not "totally" - because there are ultra rare situations where such conversations can be had in which a someone might truly consider making such a change.
Yet, for the most part, such situations remain just that - ultra rare.

That kind of person is ultra rare because frankly we all want to know that we've basically got our bases covered according to some formula. Got shelter, check; Got job to pay for shelter and food, check; Got religion so Jesus will keep me safe when I die, check. Having a set of standards and activities that simply ensure that you go to heaven means you have one less thing to worry about at the end of the day (or days). We like comfortable little boxes where someone can just tell us what to do so that everything goes smoothly, and the vast majority of humans are this way. Structure and Routine, Formula and Surety are the basis for sound and sane living. For the slim minority this is not so. One is not better than the other - proselytizers of any religion are essentially saying, in an archetypal way, "Wouldn't you sleep easier knowing you were spiritually covered?" And are confused when the answer is apparently "No." But that's just because that's where they are, and where they want to be, and it's good enough for them.

Personally, it was never good enough for me. I never understood why, if he was so all knowing, all powerful, etc., why God needed something like the Bible to let us know what he wanted. Why not inform us personally? Free will means choosing to believe in him... God's voice did not boom out of the sky one day telling me he was there and watching me. I wanted to know God, the bible wasn't cutting it and Jesus wasn't, apparently, going to patch me through, so I tossed religion all together and started from scratch with, "If you're there, and I sure hope you are, please just let me know." I had to get over the fear of what that would mean, and let go of the idea that I would be punished for going over Jesus' head in the matter (since no one goes to the Father except through him), and when finally those deep childhood beliefs cracked just a little bit, Spirit moved right in and shattered the whole thing. I have had literally no fear since then, or should I say, I know now the difference between the fear my brain creates and what I really feel, but I have no fear of death or suffering.

Some people experience God through religion. But it isn't the religion that is responsible, it is the heart of the person that enables this experience to come to pass. I think the role of religion can be to guide an individual in the way of preparing themselves for it, but that is not the official purpose of religion and it is not taken into account commonly as a purpose. The purpose of Christianity, for instance, is to save you from Hell, as Tomber said. To me that would be a terribly fearful way to live at this point, and I would perhaps even resent my God for offering me such a choice. As it is, I believe Spirit requires nothing from us at all. Not worship, or even acknowledgement. To require it means it is not really free will at all. Instead, it is entirely a matter of choice and at least for me, there has been something to be gained from it. And that is why so many religious individuals are so unhappy despite the sure knowledge of their spiritual safety - because they didn't really have a choice, God put a gun to their head.

peace