No, You're Wrong., >:-( Options

Anybody else here getting tired of the people who always want to say that you're wrong?

The "above average" student who tries to use science to debate whatever they can.
The religious zealot who uses arguments such as "Well, you're going to hell. That's just the harsh reality of it."
Or maybe just the goddamn skeptics who like to deny the existence of anything above them simply because they can never get enough proof.

Makes me freaking irate.

We should all do something about these people. Any suggestions? Maybe organized genocide? Mass marginalization and eradication? War? LOL. (It's funny cause those are all basically the same thing.) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rofl.gif)

But no really. Something ought to be done about people like this. Maybe we could start a movement to pass a bill making it illegal to deny another person's beliefs, so that a person has to state that it is only their opinion. I mean really it should all be categorized as hate speech anyway. If I started saying in a public building that all Mexicans were shit, I would get arrested. Yet Christians can stand around in their Churches and belittle the beliefs of others, simply because the people who founded this country were Christian. ...They were also white. And isn't it more wrong to verbally assault someone for their beliefs than for their heritage? It's "Oh, Buddha was a fatty and you're going to hell" as compared to "I dislike you because your people have social standards that most of the rest of the world would imprison a person for."

Am I making sense to you guys? I'm saying that it's one thing to assault a person's heritage, but quite another to assault their beliefs. Yes, it is all marginalization, but one has some degree of rationale behind it (unless you're a hateful inbred).

And I was soooo not serious about starting a holocaust. I'm just making a point in the best way that I can at the moment, and would ask that the moderators not freak out over it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Vagrant, I would appreciate your normal in-depth critique.

"Although a few scholars have questioned the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure,[4] most scholars involved with historical Jesus research believe his existence, but not the supernatural claims associated with him, can be established using documentary and other evidence.[5]"

This is from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus". The evidence that Jesus existed is one of the strongest points in His favor. An intelligent Christian would have much more trouble arguing the "supernatural" part of Jesus' existence than just his existence.

Anyway I enjoyed Bym's comments on something similar in an old thread:

Greetings!
I wish more people would ask themselves this before they start doing anything that involves conjuration/evocation/invocation!
Where the hell do you think (no, not YOU, personally...) all those words of power/divine names come from??? Most of ALL the rituals dealing with that are gleaned from a religious stance! Theurgy is what alot of you out there are playing with to begin with! No wonder when things fall flat...you don't believe in the very divine agency that is empowering the bleeding rituals! This is partially the reason why I harp (pardon the pun) on magicians who love to mix/match their dieties and god names. damn! I have to go for now...more later...

And then...

Greetings!
I apologize for leaving abruptly in mid-rant...
...
Theurgy forms a large part of what we consider 'Magic(k)'. I come from the non-Judeo-Christian following which has created a number of large impediments in my workings over the years and the subsequent delving into more of a Chaos Magic(k) bent (definately bent, LOL!) One of my points was to say that unless you understand the paths or currents of the godnames that you are utilizing in your rituals you are more apt to be getting only a watered down effect as opposed to using the same names backed by a strong Faith in those names! A fairly good example of this is to attend to a high mass in the Catholic church (or any of the high ceremonies in any of the many faiths abounding), if you are lucky you will see a true faith-based magician at work! It can be indescribable! Not to say that an agnostic magician cannot give a good accounting for themselves but they must first establish a firm 'connection' with that portion of the 'collective' and the resident archtypes for the energies that they wish to manipulate to manifest.

There will be arguments proposed that all Magic(k) is thus derived...and I can see this stance clearly...what exactly is the difference between Thaumaturgy and Theurgy? I, perhaps erroneously, like to think that Thaumaturgy is a more scientific application of these energy mechanics than those that are faith-based. Chicken or egg? I go with Egg...you are free to choose whatever you'd like! (such largess, LOL!)
...

Whilst utilizing any of the foundation rituals, you will be called upon to vibrate various words/names of power. It would behoove you to research these words and their origins. Understanding them will give you such a boost when you go to use them, you will find yourself elevated far more than before....even tho' you've had success before! This mustn't be an obfiscation to those who are not of the faith of the words, etc. If you understand the flow of that energy then you can gain considerable effectiveness in your ritual.

Magic can be worked with in a Christian way. It's not that I have a looser definition of the Bible, it's just that my interpretation is different than some people. I don't know how hell will work for people who are not Christian, I have an idea but that's about all. I do know that I can't stop trying to work with what I believe to be the most accurate interpretation of the Bible because I genuinely believe it and cannot choose to just turn my back on what I realize. I think that God comes not through the Bible but through revelation, but I think that revelation often comes through the Bible.

I enjoy the different perspectives. I wish there were more people who thought like I did to support me here lol!

"Although a few scholars have questioned the existence of Jesus as an actual historical figure,[4] most scholars involved with historical Jesus research believe his existence, but not the supernatural claims associated with him, can be established using documentary and other evidence.[5]"

This is from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus". The evidence that Jesus existed is one of the strongest points in His favor. An intelligent Christian would have much more trouble arguing the "supernatural" part of Jesus' existence than just his existence.

The other side of that... "http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_historical_existence_of_Jesus_Christ"...

Even the earliest records of Jesus are by a man who admittedly was not an eye witness - and the supposed eye-witness accounts arise well after Jesus' proposed crucifixion and resurrection. So far, there is corroborating evidence of Jesus as a myth, but no corroborating evidence of a historical figure. To me, it doesn't matter - if Jesus was a historical figure, maybe other savior figures who are historically corroborated were also genuine as well, supernatural deeds or not. However, not being myself christian it means as much as if Marduk was an actual pre-babylonian king who waged war with some other person called Tiamat. Whether men or myths, the impact is the same.

The difference is that I know the stories of the egyptian Gods to be myths, and draw allegorical wisdom from them anyway. A different kind of wisdom is found in myth than is found in history. For most christians - scholars and laymen alike - it isn't enough to have a very wise myth, it must be historically accurate, otherwise it is often felt that the religion would be invalidated. I disagree, personally.

Anyway I enjoyed Bym's comments on something similar in an old thread:
And then...
Magic can be worked with in a Christian way. It's not that I have a looser definition of the Bible, it's just that my interpretation is different than some people. I don't know how hell will work for people who are not Christian, I have an idea but that's about all. I do know that I can't stop trying to work with what I believe to be the most accurate interpretation of the Bible because I genuinely believe it and cannot choose to just turn my back on what I realize. I think that God comes not through the Bible but through revelation, but I think that revelation often comes through the Bible.

I enjoy the different perspectives. I wish there were more people who thought like I did to support me here lol!

As for names of power, religious faith is not enough to empower their use, and this is spoken of in various hebrew texts on kabalah and the meanings of the names and letters themselves. I utilize the names based on my understanding and faith in the archetypal forces represented by the letters, for instance. To you, perhaps, the name YHVH is one of the names of God, and the the Hebrews as well - to me, that is the formula for God's descent and interaction with a material creation, the ineffable and eternal becoming temporal while still retaining it's divine being. Faith in an operative divinity is all that comes into play here, and the acknowledgement that wise men may receive revelation from God, while the ignorant build temples around those words because it is all they know of God.

It is good that you recognize that God comes to us through Revelation. Personally I believe that for the right heart, revelation may come through a poem, the sight of a newborn baby, the blossoming of a lotus, the moment of calm acceptance, or the face of a stranger. I would never suggest anyone stop believing whatever they believe - but that we all must look our beliefs straight in the face, as it were, and recognize precisely what we believe in and why. Not as a matter of justifying them to anyone, but as a matter of knowing ourselves, and knowing what is good enough for us to believe in. Blind acceptance of a thing as true can be a matter of faith or ignorance, faith is more than just acceptance of what we cannot know for certain.

peace