Multi-Species Economy and Money, Red fish blue fish rich fish poor fish Options

Well i'm back, i didn't save the world, i failed.

Like a million other plan's that fell short of fulfillment. I had to give it a go.

First post i clicked on was this, an your sigil inspired me to Sigilize my ideas on money, which i think was a good thing.

It's quite wrong, money, by it's very nature it rewards people for species selfishness an hardly anything else.

None of my money spells seem to work beond getting things ticking over again, this may be due to my ineptitude but i like to think it's because large quantitys of the stuff would corrupt my pure nature.
However, that is most likey just an excuse so i can continue thinking i'm better than everyone, especially the rich people i don't know.

Like a true idealist, i've been trying to find an alternative ecconomic solution most of my life, so here it is, bear with me, its a bit rough around the edges.
You will probably just think im crazy, which is probably true to most standards, hear me out though because good critisisim makes everyone sainer.

Imagine if money wasn't just created by banks or standardised by a finite material substance like gold.
Imagine that every living thing on this planet were given a bank account with a living allowance and that was how money was created..

So everyone gets enough living allowance to live a comfortable life (globaly stabalizing over a period of time)
Even if their in work or already have lots of money.

I'm not sure how this would effect the global ecconomy, pumping wealth indefinilty like this would need a means in-which money was destroyed so it would cycle
and not deflate the value of the currency's, maybe taxation
I'm no economist, so i'll leave the devil to the details

You see if money could be derived from looking after the interests of other species as well as humans it would create a whole compassionate industry.
loads of jobs of alturistic ideals

I see it working like.. the fisherman fish's for tuna, get's it, but because the tuna own's itself the fisherman owes the species of tuna (an any other species caught) an amount of money so when he sells the tuna to people he can pay the fish back (which could fund fish breeding/preservation programs) with the money from other peoples living allowance.
Now it's obvious that each indevidual fish wouldn't be easily able to spend their money, but they could hire as groups (species or localized ecco systems) people to better their living conditions in whatever way they could.

With technologie as it is, it's not hard to see how this could be accomplished within a lifetime.

I guess what i'm trying to define here is a model of altruistic motives so that the 'luck' of the sigl would give the user equivilant money according to a higher set of motives
and maybe to also loose money accordingly aswell.

So if you live your life accordingly you are blessed by the thing but if your an evil bastard its going to buggar you up.
Either way it should alter the flow of money in the world, placing presure in all the right places to cause a global rearrangement
Also, if your wishing for money, it 'should' naturaly help you pursue alturistic goals rather than become more selfish as it seems to when wishing for wealth in other ways.

So in a way, this is a sigil that may take you on a journey to perform some saintly task that you will be rewarded for with money..
or having already contributed to society/ecology to be rewarded as such..
or having earnestly decided to contribute, gain reward before the task, like credit, so as lack of money wouldn't hinder the accomplishment of said tasks..

Well that's the idea anyway, it's not finished, i've not enchanted the sigl yet, looking for a bit of critisisim first, what ya recon?

Baaah, well i've removed my sigil as it was disdainfully off topic.. apparently.

This post has been edited by Draw: Jul 2 2012, 05:18 PM

It is an altruistic ideal, but unfortunately the value of money is defined by it's limited availability. This is why in economic troughs we don't just print new money. (Well, it happens, but it's always a bad idea and usually it's an idiot who suggests it in the first place. Which is why idiots shouldn't have clout like they can in our country...)

It can help to think of money as representative of Credit for Work. You do this much work, you earn this much money which represents the fact that you did this work. Then, you can trade that credit to others in exchange for goods, etc., and they now hold that credit for the work you did. Someone up on the top skims a bit off of that exchange, but from each of millions of these exchanges, because they are responsible for facilitating the exchange in the first place (they own the stores, factories, etc.)

It is not a perfect system. But, one of the benefits of money, that is so often ignored, is that without it we rely on the barter system, which means that a person's wealth is determined by how much they own in terms of real things - land, cattle, crops, etc. If we go back to something like that, then we severely limit the potential wealth of the common man, and we lose the ability to compensate people for work that is not based on physical commodities. What do you give the worker who keeps electricity going? A bag of wheat? Enough food to feed his family for two weeks until the next 'pay day'?

Also it means slowly sinking back into a feudalism state of society. Currently, no one would be likely to take over, say, the southeast states. And more importantly, there would be no point to doing it. More trouble than it is worth, for very little gain other than a headache. However, if wealth and power were determined by the amount of land one holds, then there is suddenly a very big incentive. Take over the southeast and you take over crops, cattle, workers who live there, etc. Such a thing wouldn't happen because of the altruistic nature of people when money is gone, you say? No. Money creates a representation of wealth that allows those who wish to have it to do so without conquering surrounding lands. Imagine subjugating your suburb to expand your holdings!

The only way for a system to work without any currency, is to return to the barter system, and for everyone to give up the desire for wealth and work for the good of the community as a whole. When you need a new road, everyone pitches in to help build it. Need better infrastructure? Everyone agrees, and gets to work. We all appreciate the work that the various utility people do, so we all pitch in a little to keep them fed since they are not farmers and spend their time keeping the systems running rather than planting food and tending herds. Everyone would need to be aware and concerned about every other individual to ensure no one would get left behind. All the way up to the top of the governing system, there would be no room for any kind of greed or the whole thing would not work.

If you want to approach a new system where currency is obsolete (which is what you've suggested) what we need is unlimited clean energy. With that, we could fulfill every need, automate most work, eliminate the necessity of currency, and provide everyone everywhere with everything they could want. There would be no point in lusting after wealth because security would not be based on holding limited commodities.

peace

If you want to approach a new system where currency is obsolete (which is what you've suggested) what we need is unlimited clean energy. With that, we could fulfill every need, automate most work, eliminate the necessity of currency, and provide everyone everywhere with everything they could want. There would be no point in lusting after wealth because security would not be based on holding limited commodities.

I'm not suggesting that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) far from it, you seem to be thinking about that 'Venus Project' rubbish which is totally impractical, offers no real incentive an degenerates as a society unless it's alone in the world even with free limitless energy, which is easier than people think, people's natural kindness would shine through as is suggested but people always want something extra from over the wall..

The only way for a system to work without any currency, is to return to the barter system, and for everyone to give up the desire for wealth and work for the good of the community as a whole. When you need a new road, everyone pitches in to help build it. Need better infrastructure? Everyone agrees, and gets to work. We all appreciate the work that the various utility people do, so we all pitch in a little to keep them fed since they are not farmers and spend their time keeping the systems running rather than planting food and tending herds. Everyone would need to be aware and concerned about every other individual to ensure no one would get left behind. All the way up to the top of the governing system, there would be no room for any kind of greed or the whole thing would not work.

An people are lazy by default, why be the first to help build that road? none of those buggers are doing it! their are loads of people who just leach off the ones doing the work.
Your right of course, no room for greed in a big barter system like that, which is why it doesn't work on a big scale without a currency.

It is not a perfect system. But, one of the benefits of money, that is so often ignored, is that without it we rely on the barter system, which means that a person's wealth is determined by how much they own in terms of real things - land, cattle, crops, etc. If we go back to something like that, then we severely limit the potential wealth of the common man, and we lose the ability to compensate people for work that is not based on physical commodities. What do you give the worker who keeps electricity going? A bag of wheat? Enough food to feed his family for two weeks until the next 'pay day'?
Also it means slowly sinking back into a feudalism state of society.

Money is not going away, as you say, it stops wars, compensates people for building roads/schools, teaching, government, farming, entertainment etc.. but it doesn't compensate people for looking after profitless forests, managing ocean fish levels, maintaining a good quality of life for farm animals, scientific research into cheap curative medicine, educating people with truth's that help _them_, preserving delicate ecosystems with rare species.. you know, all those things that qualify as species compassionate task's that we should be doing more of..

The rest of the world needs money, not just us humans, without it they are powerless to our whims, we are taking the piss a bit atm.
Money has strengthened our society's no end, but it is just an idea, an as such it can be applied to the natural world.
It's good because it works, it's bad because it's out of balance.

It is an altruistic ideal, but unfortunately the value of money is defined by it's limited availability. This is why in economic troughs we don't just print new money. (Well, it happens, but it's always a bad idea and usually it's an idiot who suggests it in the first place. Which is why idiots shouldn't have clout like they can in our country...)

It can help to think of money as representative of Credit for Work. You do this much work, you earn this much money which represents the fact that you did this work. Then, you can trade that credit to others in exchange for goods, etc., and they now hold that credit for the work you did. Someone up on the top skims a bit off of that exchange, but from each of millions of these exchanges, because they are responsible for facilitating the exchange in the first place (they own the stores, factories, etc.)

An with nothing for all the creatures plants an fungi to trade (not even their own bodys) it's a perfect excuse to abuse all none human life, they have no right to life.
God has given us the right to torture abuse an waist all in our wake.

No. money has.

So above as below, or inside as out or whatever.
Our system as it stands doesn't just abuse our fellow inhabitance of this planet, it's echo makes us abuse each-other.

Just printing money.. isn't wise.. it's meant as an incentive to do something of worth, that's why it has worth.

This is why i'm saying, just print it for all the living things, because they are the only things of actual worth on this planet,
gold, jewels, oil an the rest only matter to humans, an mostly only because they seem in limited supply.
Their is an almost limitless supply of all matter we know of in the universe, the only thing of truly limited supply is diversity of life, even weird plankton and common weeds have more future use's than gold.

Conceptual money can be limited in any way they like, atm it's just a massive greedy see-saw dripping with blood, it goes up an crush's all the life around us, it goes down an it crushes us.

Fairness is what i seek here, an it might seem a bit hard to imagine people getting a good wage for 'green things' without having to beg anyone but it's an actual possibility, a possibility that would give work to billions of people and make wanting money into wanting to do good.

It's hard to want something without wanting to be like someone who has it, an even just wanting a bigger cut of the lot is like wanting to be more like what the over all effect of that thing is.
This what frustrates me when trying to become wealthy, because i don't want that likeness but i'm a greedy man.. just marginally greedier about my personality.

I'm sorry, what was the topic about again?
Oh yeah, what dose the physical objects of money mean to you..
Well for me it would be a blood dripping see-saw and love of the monarchy, both ingrained into my mind far better than any hypnotist could, values are the base programming of an awful lot.



p.s. thanks for playing devils advocate, it reminds me of what it means to be without ego. I'm still rubbish at that game though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This post has been edited by Draw: Jul 3 2012, 05:09 AM