Transgendered, Two genders, three? Options

So, recently my friend Allison was watching this documentary which was the Vagina Monologues, performed by transgendered women. While it was apparently an amazing performance, she was a little offended. When we discussed the performance, I started to understand why, and I wondered what the people here think about the transgender point of view, and the idea of a third gender. I'm starting this discussion here because first of all, I imagine my own viewpoint is maybe a little offensive, although I don't have a problem with trangendered individuals, but second of all, it doesn't really fit anywhere else.

In addition to the subject i'm about to raise, and keeping with the obvious theme of the forums, I'm curious about what people think about the third gender - if we can or should term it this way - in terms of spiritual and mystical significance. I have thoughts on this, and you all know you'll hear them.

So, for those of you not familiar, the Vagina Monologues are about women accepting themselves - as a gender, and sexually; coming to terms with the female condition, their anatomy, themselves as the counterpart to the male gender, etc. Part of the reason my friend was a little offended seeing these transgendered women was for that very reason - while a transgendered woman (specifically) may have to learn to come to terms with themselves as a third gender, or understand why they feel the need to change gender (viewpoints vary), they don't realistically understand the experience of accepting themselves as women. They never experience the first period, the fear and anxiety that almost always comes with that in our society (western society particularly, it's not like this in all cultures), accepting or rising above their social status due to their gender, and all of the other mysterious things that go with being a woman (mysterious to me, because I'm a man.)

Now, I can sympathize with this a little bit. I've only known a couple of transgendered individuals and while I'm happy to give them whatever pronoun they want, the fact remains that they are in between genders, and this is where I found the greatest contradiction in the performance: the Vagina Monologues are about women accepting their gender and it's attendant advantages and difficulties. This play is performed here by a group of people who didn't accept their gender.

Now, in some cultures a third gender is recognized, and in other cultures this condition is simply overlooked - Thai culture, for instance, never bats an eyelash at a transgendered woman; if a man wants to live as a woman, it's just accepted, although I'm not entirely sure it goes the other way for transgendered men. In parts of india, a third gender is recognized - if I have my information correct - which is neither male nor female, because they aren't either one. In the west, though, the concept of a third gender is pretty new, and most transgendered individuals seem to prefer considering themselves part of their new gender. Personally, I don't think this is right. Like my friend, I feel this cheapens the experience of being one gender or the other. For a third-gender individual to say that they understand, experientially, or to celebrate themselves as their new gender, feels somewhat wrong, even offensive, to me as well. Not only that, but I believe it cheapens the experience of being third-gender as well.

On the spiritual side, I have wondered what the significance of a third gender is. The obvious significance is in the hermaphrodite, the union of male and female into one new being. However, I'm not sure that this divine union can be applied here, and I'll tell you why.

The classical concept of uniting the feminine with the masculine has always been, to me, about balance, integration, and acceptance of both the masculine and feminine parts, reconciled into one. Obvious parallels here are the joining of light to dark, magnetic to electric, yin to yang, etc. - the list literally includes everything in existence on one side or the other of the spectrum. However, what I see in a transgendered individual - from my obviously limited external viewpoint - is someone who has given up or rejected one part of themselves to take on another form. Now, this is quite general, and I'm sure there are exceptions in the form of individuals who live as women/men while maintaining their natural anatomy. But even then, it still seems like substitution.

While I realize it's not the same, having accepted myself as a gay man in a society which was a lot less accepting just ten years ago than it sometimes is today - much less fifty years ago - I understand the need to express the person one feels they truly are, and the need to be accepted as that 'new' person without conditions. However, I also understand having to learn to accept oneself in the face of a world that doesn't accept you as you are, and having learned since childhood only to accept oneself on a conditional basis. It's probably somewhat hypocritical I realize, but I wonder sometimes if the inability to accept one's gender - especially when so many women go through that very thing the world over - and the need to change it is in a way, karmically speaking, a failure. Were you born a man to learn to accept the masculine part of your being, or were you born a man to learn how to create perhaps the greatest change in yourself that you can? It seems to me that, like it or not, you will have to face the challenges of your gender regardless whether you accept yourself as your initial gender or not, and that as there is a reason for everything in existence, it was no accident that you were born the gender you are. While this might seem like a conservative viewpoint, and maybe it is, the question is, does that reason include the journey into the third gender?

If there's anyone on the forum who is transgendered, I'd be most interested to hear from you regarding all of these points and questions. I think the greatest mistake you can make, perhaps, is to assume you can know the experience of another person, so while I have opinions, ultimately I know there is a gap in my experience that I cannot ever really cross, and that leaves a lot of questions. Failing that, what does everyone else here think of the subject?

peace
V

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jul 16 2008, 07:22 PM

Queer man and psychology/anthropology double major who focuses on gender and sexuality here. First of all, its just transgender. Not transgenderED, its not past tense. Transgenderedism is also not an appropriate or applicable term.

The concepts that have been stated here about trans women in particular are stifling. Transgender is not a third gender, by its very definition it occurs between the binary genders. Third gender suggests that there are completely separate options for gender, transgender suggests a transition from one binary to the other. (neither are mutually exclusive)

You state that you feel offended that transgender people claim "your" gender, and it "cheapens" the experience of existing on the binary. You also state that it "cheapens" the experience of being third gender. Honestly I have no polite way of telling you that you do not get to own gender. It seems you've not only had little interaction with transpeople but have a very poor understanding of what gender is beyond biological sex.

You also claim that you think trans people have "given up" on themselves because they are trans. This is painful to even read. You are conceptualizing gender as the same as sex and I think that may be the root of this ignorance. Biological sex and gender constructs are completely separate. It also seems that you are assuming that all trans people may seek surgical means of achieving the body that reflects who they are, but not all trans people pursue or even want that. At some points you even use the word spectrum, but for some reason continue to attest that people must live on the extreme ends of the spectrum rather than anywhere across it.
*rereading your later comments you mention that someone has brought it to you and you're "sympathetic" towards the idea. You say you think that its about wanting to be treated as the opposite sex, again, I think your ethnocentrism is your downfall. The basic claim you make here is that ones gender identity is consistently based off perceptions that other people project onto them. This is typically called "gender performativity" or gender as performance, and is a sociological theory about gender as a whole. The problem with this theory and your line of thinking on the matter, is that you remove individual autonomy from the equation entirely.

Your ideas of "karmic failure" and gender sound to me nothing more than a religious and spiritual high horse and an inability to get out of your own ethnocentric world view to see who actual trans people view themselves and their life experience. Its not about "accepting their gender" they have accepted their gender, and it just so happens that their assigned gender at birth is not their actual gender identity.

I don't have the patience or time to go into detail about the other ridiculous and transphobic remarks stated by other commenters but maybe its safe to say you should pick up some books written by trans people about being transgender. If you want to talk about a particular group of people LISTEN TO THEM. Then, pick up texts on gender theory and human sexuality. I did not read a SINGLE educated comment on this thread, so before posting here go educate yourselves, as magical practitioners you should be able to do that just well enough to start off. Oh, and stop trying to use karma and past lives as your framework for analyzing another human beings existence.