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 Chaos, the Ability to Perceive
bym
post Jul 13 2005, 04:30 PM
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I promised this thread on another discussion thread and now...I have to deliver.
Just what makes Chaos Magic(k) chaotic?
We are beings with the ability to perceive many things but is Chaos one of them?
How, as organized life forms, are we able to conceptualize Chaos and then produce a 'system' of magic that utilizes this principle? (the idea of a 'system' implies order by its very nature)
A close friend and I are in the middle of this debate...he's a Molecular Biophysisist and I'm a dropout. He claims evidence of chaos exists in many ways and I've asked him to illustrate this. So far I've not heard of anything objective. True, we can say 'chaos' and write 'chaos' but we are doing so with the tools of order.
Let me bow out for awhile and let the over heated air cool and invite ideas from the Forum. Remember, this is a debate/discussion and we should agree to disagree rather than slinging shots! OK? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


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Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

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bym
post Jul 14 2005, 04:32 PM
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Excellent points! I'm not sure that I can or want to refute some of these illustrations.
The discussion was about our ability to perceive Chaos. I had hypothesized that as creatures of Order, was it possible for us to perceive Chaos? (or merely order acting chaotically) There has been many good arguments brought forth to illustrate that:
1. Order is illusion
2. the universe is Chaotic
...and a whole lot of flailing in the dark about Quantum Mechanics, entropy and occult hoo-haw.

Philosophically, Order and Chaos are a dualistic 'paradigm'. In order to state that Order is an illusion is to either declare the same for Chaos or to allude to this as not a duality at all, leaving that Chaos is All. Interesting. (How 'bout a Trinity?)
That the universe is chaotic, IMHO, is partially true. I still adhere to the idea that Chaos is Formless. In truth, I am of the belief that Order does exist and it swims in Chaos, utilizing it to further its own existance.
I am in direct disagreement with the Tree of Life/Qliphoth analogy used. The Qliphoth are the 'leftovers'/imbalances of the Sephira which are various 'forms' of Order.
Evolution Theory is not Evolution Fact, as is Chaos Theory is not Chaos Fact.
Abstracts are perceptions outside of established Order. Could one not say that Chaos as an Abstract is merely Theory and therefore not based in tangible Fact?
It gets very complex.
Our Forum subscribes to many, diverse forms of 'hidden' knowledge (ie occult) which can be separated into two basic camps, Chaos and Order. The theological groups tend toward Order...hierarchies are a manifestation of Order and the psionicists tend toward Chaos. Emotion fuels the lot in some ways (after all humans have emotions) Not to leave the theologic Psionicists alone mayhap we have a Neutrality as a Third?
Perfection also has nothing to do with it. As a chaote I would find that Chaos is perfect. Perfection is an attribute imposed on the human condition, it is an Abstract. I can hear the theologicians grumble. But GOD is perfect! Says who?
All of the above has been mulled around in human brains. Our perceptions are not limited by Order nor as formless as Chaos. During this discussion where was the old maxim: As Above, So Below ? Without form we could not not have probabilities. Without CHaos we would not have change. Chaos requires Order.
More later as I'm starting to ramble and need to cogitate. You guys keep one alive, Thanks!


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Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

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Posts in this topic
bym   Chaos   Jul 13 2005, 04:30 PM
Alarum   Ok, I disagree with you completely, and I'll r...   Jul 13 2005, 06:36 PM
bym   :D you make some interesting points. By your obs...   Jul 13 2005, 06:50 PM
Alarum   You didnt run searches and learn about what I adv...   Jul 13 2005, 07:04 PM
bym   "Our work shows that the environment is not j...   Jul 14 2005, 06:20 AM
Alarum   There is order in our small little lives, bopping ...   Jul 14 2005, 10:13 AM
A_Smoking_Fox   the order you can perceive is only one of two thin...   Jul 14 2005, 03:03 PM
Alarum   I was saying that when something actually IS ord...   Jul 14 2005, 07:01 PM
bym   I, alas, disagree...but I'm sure that this wil...   Jul 14 2005, 07:24 PM
A_Smoking_Fox   very interesting... as for perfection. Nothing is...   Jul 15 2005, 01:24 AM
Rin Daemoko   Do to the very nature of chaos, I can't say ve...   Jul 15 2005, 04:32 PM
bym   :horse:   Jul 15 2005, 06:07 PM
green_pheonix   very insightfull.. damn.. couldnt have put it bet...   Jul 15 2005, 09:37 PM
Bb3   I think that one can definitely learn to perceive ...   Jul 22 2005, 09:14 PM
Praxis   To me: Chaos is the order that I do not comprehen...   Aug 11 2005, 10:37 AM
bym   Thank you. I find that you have said that rather w...   Aug 11 2005, 12:02 PM
gavriel   This is a question that has no answer. However con...   Sep 3 2005, 04:19 PM
al_zaine   One way of looking at it..... http://i26.photobu...   Jul 21 2007, 07:26 PM
Acid09   One way of looking at it..... http://i26.photobuck...   Jul 26 2007, 06:40 PM
Nill   Order and disorder are two sides to the same illus...   Jul 24 2007, 06:25 PM
al_zaine   I agree that order and disorder are both illusion....   Jul 24 2007, 07:54 PM
al_zaine   So would you say that formlessness is the true cha...   Aug 1 2007, 12:27 PM
Acid09   In my opinion pure chaos and pure order cannot exi...   Aug 2 2007, 05:55 PM
leolad   you are trying to describe something that is washe...   Aug 7 2007, 07:25 PM
Acid09   I'd argue the things you mentioned that are p...   Aug 8 2007, 04:28 PM
paxx   Going back to the original question… “what makes c...   Sep 20 2007, 12:10 PM
Makavelli   Chaos is every bit a part of the natural universe ...   Dec 15 2007, 10:03 PM
balancedmagi   hi... :blush: ... just a question. does it really ...   Jan 19 2008, 07:51 PM
queen of the south   Well,loads of good ideas.Did any of you ever hear ...   Feb 15 2008, 04:05 PM
eternal ginja   WOW! i forgot about writing that lol i was s...   Sep 18 2008, 04:52 AM
Traceless   I promised this thread on another discussion thre...   Jan 19 2010, 04:54 AM
bym   My point exactly! Symmetry is the organizati...   Jan 19 2010, 06:56 AM
Traceless   My point exactly! Symmetry is the organizatio...   Jan 19 2010, 11:25 AM
SororZSD23   . . . the beginning, middle, and end; the birth, g...   Jan 19 2010, 09:25 AM
bym   Ah...perhaps semantics is the problem...we agree o...   Jan 19 2010, 02:27 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   Mmm... I am of the mind, after some meditation on ...   Jan 21 2010, 10:42 PM
SororZSD23   I am much in accord with Vagrant. Chaos, technica...   Jan 22 2010, 10:05 AM
Dooley   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantica...   Jan 23 2010, 08:07 PM
Traceless   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantic...   Jan 25 2010, 10:47 PM
SororZSD23   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantic...   Jan 26 2010, 09:19 AM
Dooley   They aren't being discussed as "things...   Jan 26 2010, 02:40 PM
bym   Nicely put! I may not agree on everything in p...   Jan 26 2010, 10:09 AM
SororZSD23   EDIT: In conclusion, if you are discussing them a...   Jan 26 2010, 04:09 PM
esoterica   hi - back - well, if you lived inside one inch ins...   Jan 27 2010, 09:25 AM
Praxis   Six years ago, I explained what Chaos is to me as ...   Nov 10 2011, 08:32 AM

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