A.e. Waite Options

I've seen in many post the mentioning of "The Book of Cerimonial Magic", IMHO, it is utter garbadge. This book was designed to be unusable. As for the writer himself, his destruction of the Golden Dawn was moronic with his bizarre ideas of seniority over ability, with his jelousy and fears put upon others because of his inadequaties. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sculacciata.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/butcher.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif) Redhand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

This post has been edited by redhand: Oct 23 2006, 04:58 PM

A.E.Waite said that he designed it to be unusable?
or you find it unusable?

its difficult to tell from your post

A.E.Waite said that he designed it to be unusable?
or you find it unusable?

its difficult to tell from your post

As I said the book was "designed" to be unusable in other words useless. I guess you could say my post means I don't like Waite, I think he's a fraud. His Pictorial Key to the Tarot might be useable for a beginer. The Holy Kabbalah is alright if you can get past his ramblings of which he does alot of, I would perfer Fortune's Mystical Qabala (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif)

As I said the book was "designed" to be unusable in other words useless. I guess you could say my post means I don't like Waite, I think he's a fraud. His Pictorial Key to the Tarot might be useable for a beginer. The Holy Kabbalah is alright if you can get past his ramblings of which he does alot of, I would perfer Fortune's Mystical Qabala (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif)

thank you for your reply, however i'll rephrase my original question as it appears i havent made myself understood very well.

Is your statement: "the book was designed to be unusable "

a: an Objective statement
or
b: a Subjective statement?

a: Did A.E.Waite (as many other occultists and mystics did ) design a book that was deliberately full of erroneas or mis information? (As it is alleged did Eliphias Levi)

b: or are you saying that the execution and style of the book makes it impractical for you to use?

From your tone I am imagining its the latter but if its the former i would be interested in hearing more of an indepth review of the blinds and potential tripping points incorporated into the text. This i imagine would be of great service to those of us just beginning on the path.

thanks again

thank you for your reply, however i'll rephrase my original question as it appears i havent made myself understood very well.

Is your statement: "the book was designed to be unusable "

a: an Objective statement
or
b: a Subjective statement?

a: Did A.E.Waite (as many other occultists and mystics did ) design a book that was deliberately full of erroneas or mis information? (As it is alleged did Eliphias Levi)

b: or are you saying that the execution and style of the book makes it impractical for you to use?

From your tone I am imagining its the latter but if its the former i would be interested in hearing more of an indepth review of the blinds and potential tripping points incorporated into the text. This i imagine would be of great service to those of us just beginning on the path.

thanks again

It is true that many used the so called blinds, even today, but the material is full of erroneous information as it was designed so. One finds it better to skip this book altogether. It is much better to study Mathers, Crowley, Spare, Bardon, or Regardie. To be truthful I read the book over 20 years ago, but I still remember his ramblings, as I seem to be doing now. Plus as I said before I don't like him, I would also advise against using his material, but it would be wrong to tell anyone not to read it and to arive at your own conclusion, which I think is very important IMHO. I guess I should also state that I found his work impractical as a objective statement. I hope this answers your question and I'm sorry this turned into a rant. This is only my opinion on the subject. Have you read it ? Please give your thoughts on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif) RedhandThe Text in Question

This post has been edited by redhand: Oct 24 2006, 07:13 PM

Have you read it ? Please give your thoughts on it. [/url]

No I havent read it, I generally find 19th century litrature quite a chore to plough through (never having been a fan of proseic purple prose) and only really give it a go when i have it on good authority that its worth the struggle it gives me.

Saying that, I am a big fan of Waite's Tarot which i admire for its simplicity and cleanliness of symbology (although I am aware that it does contain certain blinds) and while my deck of choice is the BOTA deck of Paul Foster Case, it is very clear that this deck is deeply indebted to the work of Waite. So it was a suprise to hear him classed a Fraud.

thanks for clearing that up for me
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think you are being a little overly harsh on Waite. His book of ceremonial magick or book of black magick or whatever current title the text carries depending on publisher is really not that bad of a book.

If you are looking to this text as a guide book then yes you will be disappointed, it was never intended as such. It does give a wonderful overview of most of the more prominent grimories that are at our hands and gives several exerpts from those texts. Which doesn't seem like a big deal now but you have to keep in mind at the time people didn't have ready access to these texts. You couldn't find the pdf's online, there were no books discussing them, and very few of them had decent translations much less mass distribution as we do now. If you owned even one grimorie then you were lucky and spent a small fortune on it. So many things in waite's book now may seem silly or useless since we can now go to the source material but at the time waite's book was very significant.

I wouldn't call waite's book unuseable but it was never intended to be used as such. It is valuable to explore sweeping themes throughout the grimories. I have found it very useful to refine my own techniques but if you are trying to nail down one method of one book then no it will be mostly useless. Also I have to agree that some things have been corrupted or left out. Any rituals involving animal sacrifice or harm to animals in any way have been left out it seems on purpose. Also double check because many of the sigils of the demons such as those from the Goetia are incorrect. Many books have errors such as these due to blinds, corrupted source material, or errors in the printing that were never caught. But in this case it seems to be on purpose because I haven't seen any errors in the seals and sigils of the angels contained in the book. So I can only assume Waite did it on purpose.

I think you are being a little overly harsh on Waite. His book of ceremonial magick or book of black magick or whatever current title the text carries depending on publisher is really not that bad of a book.

If you are looking to this text as a guide book then yes you will be disappointed, it was never intended as such. It does give a wonderful overview of most of the more prominent grimories that are at our hands and gives several exerpts from those texts. Which doesn't seem like a big deal now but you have to keep in mind at the time people didn't have ready access to these texts. You couldn't find the pdf's online, there were no books discussing them, and very few of them had decent translations much less mass distribution as we do now. If you owned even one grimorie then you were lucky and spent a small fortune on it. So many things in waite's book now may seem silly or useless since we can now go to the source material but at the time waite's book was very significant.

I wouldn't call waite's book unuseable but it was never intended to be used as such. It is valuable to explore sweeping themes throughout the grimories. I have found it very useful to refine my own techniques but if you are trying to nail down one method of one book then no it will be mostly useless. Also I have to agree that some things have been corrupted or left out. Any rituals involving animal sacrifice or harm to animals in any way have been left out it seems on purpose. Also double check because many of the sigils of the demons such as those from the Goetia are incorrect. Many books have errors such as these due to blinds, corrupted source material, or errors in the printing that were never caught. But in this case it seems to be on purpose because I haven't seen any errors in the seals and sigils of the angels contained in the book. So I can only assume Waite did it on purpose.

" Very well put", but its just been my oppinion of the man himself. As I had stated previously other books from the time are a better choice. Of course I do understand the point about availability, I myself remember searching before the internet. Oh, and Pilgrim Child I don't see any thing wrong with his tarot its what I started out with, one of my favorites is the Morgan/ Greer which is based on the Rider/ Waite. The BOTA not bad, though as a black and white deck I perfer the Hermetic Tarot, which by the way is back in print as of this month by U.S..Games. Redhand (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spider.gif)

don't see any thing wrong with his tarot its what I started out with, one of my favorites is the Morgan/ Greer which is based on the Rider/ Waite. The BOTA not bad, though as a black and white deck I perfer the Hermetic Tarot

Thanks for the heads up on that gem coming back into print. I do like the 'Hermetic Tarot' as a study aid, although I find it very Left-Brained and lacking in subtlety, (almost as if its trying to talk to your conscious mind before your subconscious -if that makes sense??) wont stop me from buying a new set though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The Morgan/Greer I don't know but it sounds interesting, I'll look into it if the chance arises. As to the BOTA deck well they only stay black and white until you paint them, then, depending on the energy you've poured into them, they sure pack a punch.

Anyway as i'm now straying off topic i'll shut-up before i get mod-spanked

One thing I noticed about this book, if I remember correctly was the pentagram of solomon was different. The name te tra gram ma ton went side to side instead of around the talisman like in most grimoires.

Greetings,

I think that we are being underly harsh of Waite here. He just might be the greatest A$$ sucker in occult history. His Black Magick book appears as if a 4 year old did the illustrations. His translation is complete toilet paper.

I agree with Mr> Crowley who despised Waite. Waite sucks. Save your money.

Peace!

Greetings,

I think that we are being underly harsh of Waite here. He just might be the greatest A$$ sucker in occult history. His Black Magick book appears as if a 4 year old did the illustrations. His translation is complete toilet paper.

I agree with Mr> Crowley who despised Waite. Waite sucks. Save your money.

Peace!

Waite is perhaps the most accomplished occultist of the modern age, if he was nothing as a magician. He received acclaim from royalty and the educated elite, and produced an enormous amount of highly-respected literature on nearly every esoteric subject of his time. His work cannot be dimissed lightly.

Waite's "Book of Black Magic" uses illustrations from classic occult literature, and is designed not to be unusable, but on the contrary to make sense of the confusion of the grimoires. Unfortunately it seems that Waite was trying to blend the grimoires into something complete, under the assumption that they were essentially one work. Perhaps he should have treated them individually, but in any case he makes it clear that the book lacks nothing of interest to the scholar and nothing of use to the dabbler.

Waits has also been criticised as "dry and humorless" but really he's pretty witty. He is critical of the grimoires, and of the motives of the authors, and for a more or less traditional Christian perspective on Ceremonial Magic you could do far worse. As to his translation, considering his academic credits, could you say that you are more of an expert in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, and Old French? Compare the Waite translations of Dragon Rouge to those of the IGOS edition... that author can't even distinguish between King Saul and St. Paul!

Eliphas Levi, on the other hand, wanted very much to present himself as an authority on the occult, but almost every page of "Dogma et Ritual" has gross errors of fact. Some things he just makes up, and others he is flat out wrong about, and I have no idea why anyone would respect him. On top of this, Levi made every attempt to provide himself as an expert in the "secret society" subcultures, and aside from his books remaining in print he appears to have gotten little for it.