Our Lord Jesus Christ, Lord or Man? Options

Jesus was real.

Would you possibly care to expand on that? One liners from newbies is frowned on (btw...wink,wink, know what I mean?...) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Just to add some info to some previous posts. I also dont have my history books in front of me. But id like to add some more info for everyone to speculate about in regards to how jesus became, as opposed to what he taught. The torah speaks of a coming messiah, and it says that we shall know him by his works. It lists some miracles that the messiah will perform and that by these shall we know him. John can be interpreted as saying that jesus fulfilled these requirements. He can also be interpreted in other ways. Did jesus go around following the list, or did the opportunities just naturally present themselves. Did he actually perform miracles or did he fake them or did people make it up to perpetuate the myth. Do you believe in the big bang, static or oscillating universal models, or tolkeinesque creation? I think jesus was a clog salesman who carved mottos on his clogs to make them funny and appealing, and people believed the little stories he wrote on them and he just had a good imagination, but the silly people wanted him to be all that. But he actually was and the clogs werent real but they were brought to him after midnight by naked angels whose movie careers werent going well and so were doing nude angel work to pay the rent. Nude angel work pays well if you can get it. I got a set of nude angel wings on ebay and they go just great with my glow in the dark king james version.

Jesus apparently was fond of kids (in a wholesome down to earth way), and he would be smiling i suspect. Maybe matters of faith are best dealt with by fastidious researching and argumentative intellectualisation. Even for those who dont believe in jesus, jesus is a matter of faith. Do you believe in magick? Belief is akin to commitment. What is the nature of commitment? Commitment is not only a choice now, but is the acceptance that this is a choice you will have to make over and over and over again. I am in no way advocating putting down your books and making it all up for yourself, or just pig headedly sticking to some choice or belief you have made for the sake of continuity. I am suggesting that we should educate ourselves as much as possible, but that after we have devoured these words and opinions and ideas and theories, and revealed to ourselves as much as possible the possible motvations and causes behind all of these, that we should be entitled to sit back enjoy our beliefs for what they are - beliefs.

I suppose i am futilely reiterrating my opinion that man or myth or god or magician - im not sure wether he did or not, but if he gave his life - this indeed was a truly great gift. But maybe i am arrogant in saying that i believe that the reason for this was emotionally for love, but mentally out of that emotional love it was necessary to ensure the memory of the message - in my opinion jesus wanted us to hear his message more than he wanted us to worry about man or myth or miracle or whatever.

Just be kind to eachother - something its easy to forget.

Just be kind to eachother!!!

This post has been edited by extinctionspasm: Nov 26 2006, 05:16 AM

I believe Jesus was a man. The stories in the new testament may have some real facts but they are just that, stories. I believe the Bible itself is a book of family history and moral codes that was written at a time when people need something to tell them the differance between right and wrong. Thats just my opinion. I don't discredit others beliefs. Everyone is intitled to what they believe.

Jesus Christ was and is the master of teachers,He was a special angelic being from a special born.Mary and Joseph practise white tantra,they done sexual magic alchemy(maithuna)to create a cheruvim angelic being,a great master,as the same happened with Buddha who born by the same sacred sexual proccesS.He borned without any karma follow his soul,without any kind of a lunar body,just a solar entity who have the gift of an angel,a master.The purpose of His born was to teach the human how to live with the right way according to the laws of the FAther ,the cosmic laws that makes the universe function.As He growed up learned teachings from buddhist philosophy and magic,he managed to awake fully conciousnes and all the christic abilities,he was a trully enlighjted man who finnaly liberated from death and became one with god.
All His life is symbolic,
BORN SACRIFICE DEATH LIBERATION (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Symbols_1911.gif)
Inner Crhrist is an esoteric deity we all have to awake inside us,awake the christic fire inside us,die and sacrifice our own beings,and in the end liberate our new self from inside...

During my internet years, I found info like Jesus married Maria Magdalena, went to India and studied there, that he did not die on the cross. I'm not sure what to believe in. Yesterday, I finished reading Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code and in it I again read what I've found + Sarah, Jesus's daughter and how Constantine used the "perverted" new testament to make a god out of Jesus to win the Catholic over the Pagan. Altought the book has errors, it is still an interesting read.

What is your opinion on this? Jesus, the Lord or -just- a man?

Imho , Jesus Christ is the magnum magus . He appears in the Higher Planes and in circle and teaches about magick , energy body development , alchemy , healing , exorcism , cosmology and love .I believe he is En'ki, Seth , Thoth , Horus , Pan , Quetzacoatyl , Isaac of Luria , Jacques de Molay etc.

I feel that the Cosmic Christ Consciousness is a universal logos and that he is an avatar embodying a higher light quotient than humanity can manifest or endure .

In the apocrypha ie Pistis Sophia and Gospel of Judas Christ speaks about projection of angels , OBE , reincarnation and mother kundalini .

Salutations.There is reason to believe that Jesus spent some time in India learning many sacred concepts.He has a close affinity at least in esoteric Indian tantrik teachings,to the Guru of Gurus and the master and creator of Kriya Yoga,Mahavatar Babaji ,an elightened being who is said to have a divine presence of more than 2000 years.

I would therefore tend to believe that Jesus was an elightened being in the mold of Buddha and Babaji.

Balance. Jesus was a MAN sent to return balance to the world at that time. He was the son of god as we all are. And a man is so much more as WE ALL KNOW.
He died on the cross not only in Martyrdom but also to save the world from its sin. HE was a mage and mystic of the purest and highest quality because he was made to be in the likeness. TO show all of us what we are capable of as humans.
The false idols and worshippers of false gods( kings, whatever) had gotten out of hand. And so to show the truth to the world (he did) God sent Jesus. We are not here to worship some false nonsense. The entirety of gods creation extends so far beyond earth.
The bible to this day (new and old) holds much truth and many answers that should not be overlooked. i will never stoop to the level of the Christian by overlooking all but what i want to. That is the worst. And for me to study all but the bible and not learn about god and Jesus is as bad as the opposite.

Dan Browns book IS fiction
Jesus Christ is the Messiah and soon, VERY SOON, all of Revelations will come true
i have been doing tons of reasearch and creating a web site proving we are in the end times
I'll let y'all know when its done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/angel.gif)

According to muslim tradition, Jesus or Hazrat Isa ( peace be uppon him) is 'Kalamullah'. He is the manifestation of the Word of God ( Allah SWT). Allah created the Universe and everything in en out of it by using the word 'Kum' which closely translated means 'be' or 'become'. Allah SWT can create anything He wants, how He wants, where He wants etc. So as a sign of His greatness He created Hazrat Isa AS without a father. In the Qur'an a whole Sura is dedicated to Hazrat Isa AS and his mother Maryam ( Maria) RA, it is called Sura Maryam. According to Islam Hazrat Isa AS lives, he hasn't taste death, yet. He isn't crucified. Allah SWT saved him by taking him ( physical and spiritual...body and soul) up to the first heaven. Hazrat Isa AS will decent from this heaven to help Imam Mahdi RA in his fight against the Dajjal.

Hazrat Isa AS is human, not God. But we can not say he is just like us, because 1) his creation is a miracle if we look at the way he is created 2) he is a great Prophet 3) he is the Messias 4) he carries the light of Muhammed ( nur-e-muhammed) in his soul, like all the great Prophets 5) he will return ( no re-incarnation, but decent from the sky) 6) he is a Sign of Allah SWT and many more...

These are some of the things a remember, and this is what I believe...I have great respect and love for Hazrat Isa AS ( Jesus) and his mother Maryam AS. Muslim are being obligated to show love and respect to all Prophets of Allah and to His whole creation!

I have seen some documentaries on NGC and Discovery Channel about Jesus ( peace be uppon him), for example about the DaVinci code. It's interesting. But I don't believe it.

It's is written in the Qur'an that Hazrat Isa AS and his mother Maryam RA are those historical figures which will be discussed about by people of all times. And this is true.

God Bless!

Mo (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap.gif)

I am certain that Yeshua was not the Son of God and not the Messiah. A mortal man and perhaps a great Magi who studied in the Mystery Schools of Egypt & India. Perhaps a spiritually evolved soul on His final incarnation before progressing onward to another plane of existence towards immortality and GodHead.

His written life (debatable as it is) seems to be nothing more than another parallel with Horus and other dying/resurrecting God/Men.

I am of the belief that what was written about Yeshua way after his death has very little to do with what the actual Man was about.

Furthermore, I believe the Abrahamic religions to be a deception by Set (the true Adversary/Satan) used to blind Mankind from gnosis and thus remain in control of Mankind.


Mankind's Fall in the Garden of Eden can be seen as an allegory:

The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism. This Fall shields us from the spiritual world and opens an Abyss between Man and the Divine. The Right Hand Path of traditional Qabalah and Christianity aims to restore the original harmonic relation between man and the Divine.

The Left Hand Path fulfills and deepens the Fall. The Dark Adept continues the Fall from the Abrahamic God to reach individual divinity.
The reason behind the Fall is often described as being hubris, man's search for knowledge and forces that originally were not meant for him to acquire. The Left Hand Path leads to a second birth, a spiritual rebirth as a god.

Lucifer-Daath, the original Serpent, represents the divine force of creation that is able to carry out the idea of creation. Lucifer-Daath sinks down to man's level and awakens the power of creation and the sexual energy in man. Thus, man can reach the knowledge which was previously only accessible to God.

The adepts of the Left Hand Path glorify the Fall and allow the destruction to be fulfilled. Leading away from the Tree of Life and further into the Tree of Knowledge.

(IMG:http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p130/thexenomancer/bible_fight.jpg)

I don't think Jesus the Christ even existed in the way that the christian church says he did. In fact, there is evidence that the biblical Jesus is actually a fusion between two figures; Jesus Barabbas and Mithra.

Jesus Barabbas was a man who was to die by crucifixion, on the same day as "Jesus the Christ", for his crimes as a bandit and terrorist.
In the story, the crowd was to be given a choice, due some celebratory tradition. To save one or the other, and they chose Barabbas to be freed.

Of course they would have chosen the man who actively fought for their freedom over a guy who fixes floors for a living and preached to people on mounts.
Just kinda makes sense seeing as how they were in dire need of freedom from Roman rule.


Now, some scholars believe that when they refer to "Jesus Barabbas", they're just refering to "Jesus the Christ", because "Barabbas" translates to "son of the Father".
Some scholars say that Jesus the Christ was called Jesus Barabbas by his followers by his addressing "God" as "Father".
But, if that were true, then the story of chosing one over the other wouldn't make any sense, would it?
How would the crowd be able to choose one over the other if they are one in the same? Would they take a sword and split him in half?



Mithra the demi-god of a Zoroastrian cult. I myself don't know very much about him, mainly since I didn't bother reading up on him.
But from what I do know, a lot of things about "the Christ" mirrors that of Mithra. For instance, Christmas. Christmas was said to be the day of Jesus' birth, and is celebrated (usually) by a feast.
Ironically, that same day is the day of the birth of Mithra, and is the day of the Saturnalia feast, which were both older than the Christmas holiday.
It has also been said that all of the "miracles" that "Jesus the Christ" had performed in the stories were all things that Mithra had done in his older legends.


I could go on further about churches and artwork and the Vatican, but I'm getting tired of typing about this.

This post has been edited by Djinn Shiva: Apr 22 2009, 07:17 PM

Considering that there is little to no evidence of his actual existence. I am inclined to say that he did not exist.

And if he did, then the stories about him are grossly exaggerated

If he did exist.

And was also the judeo-christian god.

I feel bad for the jews and christians because that was a poor excuse for a deity.

No offense to anyone of course.

Peace

New guy here. I believe that Jesus is exactly who he said he is. I believe the apostles creed.But, I am also pretty sure there is more to it than your typical mainstream fundie stuff. Hence, my presence on this forum. i believe most of the answers given above are also equally true and that there is no contradiction in this statement. I know I am a heretic by traditional standards. But, I don't care. It functions well for me.
The problem lies with the mundane 'followers'.
I also believe that "all religions are right; save that they understand even a little"
93,blessed be, semper fi, peace be with you, drive very fast and swerve a lot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

ouch! i'm not even christian and that stung....!!! i really don't think Christianity is any less or more given to mysticism, exaggeration, and superstition then any of the other religions out there, but it certainly has its good points too.

at my old church...they still serve donuts every Sunday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"I feel that the Cosmic Christ Consciousness is a universal logos and that he is an avatar embodying a higher light quotient than humanity can manifest or endure"

Amen sista!!!

although...i think Pan has made it clear to me that he is the essential human Connection with that 'light quotient' you are talking about...rather than an alien god simply representing a bridge we can never cross. Whoever he is, I firmly believe we will cross that Jordan...hehe...when we come to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

"The Fall represents mankind's and natures fall into materialism"

on that note....i always thought that the story was in allusion to mankind's graduation into harnessing the land for their own purposes to the expense of their animal connection to the Earth. think about it...fruit, harvesting, knowledge, sweat of the brow, painful childbirth, alienation from the True garden of Eden. and where did mankind's agriculture and cities originate, in the earliest periods? wasn't it between the two rivers, in old Iraq preceding Mesopotamia, the true cradle of life, yes? i mean...weren't we wanderers before? But once we settled down, we 'clothed' ourselves (metaphorically speaking) in 'sin' and supposedly became like God in that we knew right from wrong and that we were the dominant species. Right and wrong, to me, is a misconception birthed by the luxury of long sitting civilization. There has to be some sort of reasoning and law to govern the fast multiplying body of humans, who otherwise demonstrate their natural tendency to 'wander' like lambs. how convenient to come up with 10 commandments and a Leviticus full of 'Do not eat pig'.

the allusion of Christ being killed and resurrected, sounds awfully suspicious to me....like how we harvest our grains.

i strongly suspect that smash's reference to Jesus of Nazareth's immortalization through the way of the Dionysian mysteries (as well as various other mediums), at least regarding the natural evolution of mythology (ignoring the facts of rude history or even, divine will and intervention) among the masses (also disregarding the highbrow machinations of the ecumenical council or direct catholic or political intervention), is the most natural and popular progression. keep in mind, Jesus was also a rival archetypal image to older figures such as Hercules and Bachus and probably just as easily accepted by the population. out with the old, in with the new...in true Roman fashion.

As his modern persona appears and survives these days, it cannot possibly be in conjunction with his original personality or message.

period.

That does not mean there is nothing to be learned from the text, from the evidence of his life left behind, or even from his literal wisdom...but I personally feel that it would be like adding spit to a waterfall contributing further literal or biased interpretations of the man's life philosophies, when his message has already become "a climate of thought" rather then anything specific or historically accurate.
Within his words and within the numerous and sometimes conflicting documentations of his life, there lies a vast hidden resource of sociological and psychological study to be done.

In review of both old and new testament's development and application i believe there can be found a strong testament to human endeavor.

This post has been edited by valkyrie: May 11 2009, 11:31 PM

Just to add some info to some previous posts. I also dont have my history books in front of me. But id like to add some more info for everyone to speculate about in regards to how jesus became, as opposed to what he taught. The torah speaks of a coming messiah, and it says that we shall know him by his works. It lists some miracles that the messiah will perform and that by these shall we know him. John can be interpreted as saying that jesus fulfilled these requirements. He can also be interpreted in other ways. Did jesus go around following the list, or did the opportunities just naturally present themselves. Did he actually perform miracles or did he fake them or did people make it up to perpetuate the myth. Do you believe in the big bang, static or oscillating universal models, or tolkeinesque creation? I think jesus was a clog salesman who carved mottos on his clogs to make them funny and appealing, and people believed the little stories he wrote on them and he just had a good imagination, but the silly people wanted him to be all that. But he actually was and the clogs werent real but they were brought to him after midnight by naked angels whose movie careers werent going well and so were doing nude angel work to pay the rent. Nude angel work pays well if you can get it. I got a set of nude angel wings on ebay and they go just great with my glow in the dark king james version.

Jesus apparently was fond of kids (in a wholesome down to earth way), and he would be smiling i suspect. Maybe matters of faith are best dealt with by fastidious researching and argumentative intellectualisation. Even for those who dont believe in jesus, jesus is a matter of faith. Do you believe in magick? Belief is akin to commitment. What is the nature of commitment? Commitment is not only a choice now, but is the acceptance that this is a choice you will have to make over and over and over again. I am in no way advocating putting down your books and making it all up for yourself, or just pig headedly sticking to some choice or belief you have made for the sake of continuity. I am suggesting that we should educate ourselves as much as possible, but that after we have devoured these words and opinions and ideas and theories, and revealed to ourselves as much as possible the possible motvations and causes behind all of these, that we should be entitled to sit back enjoy our beliefs for what they are - beliefs.

I suppose i am futilely reiterrating my opinion that man or myth or god or magician - im not sure wether he did or not, but if he gave his life - this indeed was a truly great gift. But maybe i am arrogant in saying that i believe that the reason for this was emotionally for love, but mentally out of that emotional love it was necessary to ensure the memory of the message - in my opinion jesus wanted us to hear his message more than he wanted us to worry about man or myth or miracle or whatever.

Just be kind to eachother - something its easy to forget.

Just be kind to eachother!!!

I guess you should read up my post on The "Magic of Self" - the birth of a god. There isn't anything more real than our imaginations if you know what I mean, but I seriously find meditation a useful tool as well as a destructive weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

I haven't read Dan Brown's book, although I saw the movie. But his ideas were clearly taken completely from the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail series of books by Michael Baigent, Richard Leigh, and Henry Lincoln. That book and it's sequels were quite fascinating to me. My first degree was in History and I have always had a keen interest in history of the early Christian church. But while they were fascinating, there were large gaps in historical evidence bridged by conjecture. Many of the things that they suggested did seem logical, but there was no proof and their suggestions as to what occurred was only one possibility out of several or many. Really, there is no real proof that Jesus or Yoshua existed at all.

I'm not Christian whatesoever, so coming from this standpoint I would say that if he existed, Jesus was an ordinary man. Looking at it from a broader religious perspective, you have to wonder how other gods originated. Possibly Odin, for instance, was an actual man who lived during the Proto-Germanic period. Maybe he was well respected as being a wise leader and warrior, so they deified him. Maybe people have a need to have gods so they make them from the materials at hand. Perhaps many of the gods were originally ordinary men and women. I could easily argue against this, but it is an interesting thought that I wanted to throw out your way.

There are many possibilities and it is best that people throw off their religious indoctrination and see things without the blinders.

I do not think we create the Godhead because we have a need for it . I believe that that are Godhead lines which permeate the consciousness of all lifeforms. These reincarnate in diverse cultures to teach us to become more like an image of Godhead.

I believe that Christ is a transcended being on a reincarnating avataric line . I believe that he continues to teach enlightenment , love and healing as the Cosmic Christ who appears in dreams , meditative visions to many throughout the world and across the ages. He connects to us through the Christ Consciousness.

This post has been edited by Aunt Clair: Sep 11 2009, 05:27 AM

AHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT?????????

Ok i am not 100% sure on the whole religion thing to begin with but i was raised babtist. I have learned quite a bit on the bible and one thing that i have noticed is that there is only one god correct? So lets think if jesus is gods son wouldnt there be two gods or god himself would have had to had sexual relations. The holy spirit as well were does that fall in so if were only supposed to worship one god why then do we have 3? Is a question i have asked for quite sometime and no one can anwser me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dumbells.gif)

AHHHHHHHHHHHH WHAT?????????

Ok i am not 100% sure on the whole religion thing to begin with but i was raised babtist. I have learned quite a bit on the bible and one thing that i have noticed is that there is only one god correct? So lets think if jesus is gods son wouldnt there be two gods or god himself would have had to had sexual relations. The holy spirit as well were does that fall in so if were only supposed to worship one god why then do we have 3? Is a question i have asked for quite sometime and no one can anwser me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dumbells.gif)

Hey Grim, Although the Bible declares there is only one living God. the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and God work as a package. A package that requires each other one in order for harmony and peace to take effect in this lifetime of ours. This is because God as a force comprises three different personages (His Son, his Spirit, and Himself).Think of an egg It is comprised of the white, the yoke and the shell, yet it is still one egg. This is how we should view God. Because without his spirit (who protects us, and for this look at In Romans 8:26, where we learn that the Holy Spirit is there for us when we are not feeling our best: “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”) and without his son, who earned the title as redeemer and saviour of mankind (after God ressurected Him). So yeah, without his spirit and without his son, God would not be as formidable as we know him to be.

Also, we are implicitly told by the Bible not to worship Jesus Christ: We know this from Rev 19:10

" And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".
Notice how I put the words, Worship God in bold.
Also, The primary word used of worship in relation to Jesus is the Greek word proskuneo. Proskuneo simply means "to prostrate; to bow down; to pay obeisance or homage." It does not mean "worship", as we understand the word.

While the word proskuneo can and is used of the Father, there is a word that is used exclusively of the worship of a deity, and that is the word latreuo. This word is never used of Jesus.

Another word translated for "worship" is doxa - though in most cases it is translated "glory", being used in reference to God, king Solomon, and those who receive praise at feasts (Luke 14:10.) It contains no inherent religious implication, but (as with proskuneo) can be used within a previously-established religious context.

I hope this helps. I believe Scripture teaches that God only is to be worshipped in a religious sense. Jesus is to be respected and honoured, reverenced (like a king), but never worshipped.

Having said all of this, the Holy Spirit and his Son CAN (im my humble opinion) be viewed as Gods in their own rights; because there significance and purpose in this lifetime, and in relation to us humans is monumental. Evidence for Jesus Christ being a God is from John 10: 34-36 where it states "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? f he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

What this passages means is that yes even we are God's in Jesus's words because we are God's special children. Moroever, it implicitly states that if we are Gods, then imagine how much of a God Jesus Christ is, for he is the SON of God.

So yeah.. I hope this helps you!!!

Hey Grim, Although the Bible declares there is only one living God. the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ and God work as a package. A package that requires each other one in order for harmony and peace to take effect in this lifetime of ours. This is because God as a force comprises three different personages (His Son, his Spirit, and Himself).Think of an egg It is comprised of the white, the yoke and the shell, yet it is still one egg. This is how we should view God. Because without his spirit (who protects us, and for this look at In Romans 8:26, where we learn that the Holy Spirit is there for us when we are not feeling our best: “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”) and without his son, who earned the title as redeemer and saviour of mankind (after God ressurected Him). So yeah, without his spirit and without his son, God would not be as formidable as we know him to be.

Also, we are implicitly told by the Bible not to worship Jesus Christ: We know this from Rev 19:10

" And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy".
Notice how I put the words, Worship God in bold.
Also, The primary word used of worship in relation to Jesus is the Greek word proskuneo. Proskuneo simply means "to prostrate; to bow down; to pay obeisance or homage." It does not mean "worship", as we understand the word.

While the word proskuneo can and is used of the Father, there is a word that is used exclusively of the worship of a deity, and that is the word latreuo. This word is never used of Jesus.

Another word translated for "worship" is doxa - though in most cases it is translated "glory", being used in reference to God, king Solomon, and those who receive praise at feasts (Luke 14:10.) It contains no inherent religious implication, but (as with proskuneo) can be used within a previously-established religious context.

I hope this helps. I believe Scripture teaches that God only is to be worshipped in a religious sense. Jesus is to be respected and honoured, reverenced (like a king), but never worshipped.

Having said all of this, the Holy Spirit and his Son CAN (im my humble opinion) be viewed as Gods in their own rights; because there significance and purpose in this lifetime, and in relation to us humans is monumental. Evidence for Jesus Christ being a God is from John 10: 34-36 where it states "Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? f he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

What this passages means is that yes even we are God's in Jesus's words because we are God's special children. Moroever, it implicitly states that if we are Gods, then imagine how much of a God Jesus Christ is, for he is the SON of God.

So yeah.. I hope this helps you!!!

This was quite helpful Thank you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spoton.gif)

I am a former devout 'born again' christian, and amateur bible scholar. Since my leaving the christian faith, I've continued my historical fascination, but without the 'blinders', studying a fairly wide body of church-taboo texts and alternative historical ideas. Now, don't read that as "ooooh credentials!". I'm only trying to say that I have reasons for what I think about all of this, and that they're based on some experience & education rather than 'feelings'. I'm pointedly NOT saying that I'm right, or that my opinion should have more value, it doesn't.

In my opinion, there was a man named jesus, or more accurately ישוע (Yeshua, Joshua), meaning "YHWH provides", which is believed to be a reference to the old testament story where abraham is told to sacrifice his son isaac on the mountain top, but at the last moment, is told "nevermind, sorry, i'll provide the sacrifice". But honestly, it wasn't a terribly uncommon name in that region & time period. There were a LOT of jews named Yeshua. In my opinion one of them was a bit of an ideological shit-disturber, much like the bible says he was. And in my opinion he was killed by the romans, likely by request of the hebrew religious bodies, in order to quell dissension and secure the status quo. I also think that he had a group of followers, who after his death "deified him", as that was actually a common practice in rome & greece at the time (both of which exerted strong cultural influence on israel). He may very well have called himself the son of god, but then again he supposedly repeatedly calls 'everyone' the children of god, so that doesn't necessarily confer any special status. It is even possible that Yeshua the man, was in fact trying to copy Mithra, with a hebrew twist. That's about as much as I'd say is 'legitimate' regarding the stories associated with Yeshua.

Jesus Christ the Messiah & miracle worker... on the other hand, was created in the first Council of Nicea in 325 C.E. and a later council in Carthage in 397 C.E. As well as being created in the years between 30 C.E. and 300 C.E. by members of the "christ cult" (the roman name for christianity prior to emperor constantine). There was a fair amount of 'one upsmanship' in the competing cults in the roman empire at the time. The more popular and older cult was the cult of Mithras, or mithraism. Mithra in this cult, prior to yeshua's birth, had already been 'the son of god', walked on water, turned water into wine, healed the sick, had 12 disciples, was crucified, and resurrected on the 3rd day, etc. All of which were details that the christ cult 'borrowed' ("yeah well our guy did all those things too!"). Then at the council of Nicea, you must remember, that the council was not formed by all the wise men of christian faith, so they could pray and discern the true word of god... it was a pantheistic gathering of the religious leadership & scholars of all of the religions in the roman empire, who were tasked by their emperor (who was himself a Helios worshiper by the way, and running the show, later recognized as the first pope) to come up with a single 'universal' roman religion. Incidentally, that is what 'catholic' means in The Holy Roman Catholic Church, catholic is latin for "universal", making the name of the christian religion "the holy roman universal church". The people who picked what texts went into the bible and what didn't, almost certainly 'wrote' some of the bible as well. For example there are phrases and ideological ideas which very obviously borrow from everything from kemeticism to buddhism to hindu to greek & roman pantheism, zoroastrianism, etc. "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is for example actually buddha's words, spoken 500 years before yeshua was born. The religion was originally designed to 'make everybody happy' and to take the best bits of philosophy and parable, mix them with a good story which is based more on mithraism than the christ cult, and turn out a single unified belief system for the far reaching and diverse pantheistic roman empire. If constantine's wife hadn't been a member of the christ cult, the 'bible' likely would have ended up being about Mithra instead of Yeshua, but the stories & ideology wouldn't have changed much either way, as they're really a composite of many religious ideas & stories.

Unfortunately for rome, it did not, as constantine hoped, solidify and strengthen rome, instead it rather weakened it and created significant dissension. And his idea of a single universal roman church probably hastened the fall of rome.

All of that of course speaking about origins, in the intervening 1600 years since that time, the christian religion has gone through continuous changes, and has arrived at a state which is... well a dim shadow of it's original eclecticism.

and of course the "holy spirit" is actually a chauvanist replacement for Mithas mother... and just a general user-friendly format for working with the egregoric energy of the church to practice christian magick.

"Dear god, save me from your followers"

This post has been edited by Kath: Nov 8 2009, 12:26 PM

I think Jesus was a Magician... A man who was blessed with divine wisdom. There were many prophets through out the ages Abraham, Muhammad, Buddah, Zoraster and plenty of others. I view him no differently then the other prophets. We are all children of GOD.

This post has been edited by Relikhan: Nov 22 2009, 02:30 AM

According to Christianity, Jesus was God and man, and in some cases God himself. He died on the cross for our sins, as is well known. Dying, meaning he took the full brunt of God's wrath. However this offers a strange paradox: God smiting himself. To take the full wrath of God would mean to be obliterated; but to be God also means to eternal. So this loop continues and continues. Until the conclusion is forgiveness.