Roman Catholic Worried... Options

As you can tell from the topic title, all this stuff interests me and I'd like to be able to perform some of it, but everything about the Golden Dawn, Hermeticism, and Ceremonial Magick in general tends to freak me out. I'm a Roman Catholic and I'm obscenely worried about my spiritual self getting into some trouble by doing this stuff. Are there any 'Judeo-Christian' roots to these rituals? I mean it doesn't take a lot to notice the archangels and God's names in the rituals, but seeing videos of people using sinister voices and generally acting like they want to be Lucifer's best friend during said rituals is a little worrisome.

If anyone has any advice for me I'd really appreciate it. I want to be closer with my HGA and thereby God by doing a little magick everyday, I desperately want Him to work through me, but what if unwittingly I allow myself to be worked by an entity with less than amiable goals? Etc., etc.

Thanks in advance..

I think maybe just go with what you truly, deeply feel comfortable with.

All of the modern day church stuff sits upon a history that runs right from cavemen, through, Mayans, Aztecs, Ancient Greek gods etc etc etc. It is a system that developed according to political and spiritual need of the day. It has good points, it has hindrances.

It is not so much whether you should take up Magick, but do some deep searching and see if it calls you and why. Its like most things, many will pick it up and it will either be the love of their life or it will lead them onto something else as they are exploring.

Churches can sometimes make us dependent on their rules and ideals; we have expectations that they have it right but if it is not right for you, you can make yourself miserable for years trying to make it all fit, but in the end, you will have to find your own path.

Besides that, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there are Catholic priests and laity who practice CM and find no conflict.

I think it depends on why you want to do the magick and what kind of magick.

And of course, don't forget that the mass is virtually a magickal ritual, but what is important is what they are trying to achieve with that.

I think maybe just go with what you truly, deeply feel comfortable with.

All of the modern day church stuff sits upon a history that runs right from cavemen, through, Mayans, Aztecs, Ancient Greek gods etc etc etc. It is a system that developed according to political and spiritual need of the day. It has good points, it has hindrances.

It is not so much whether you should take up Magick, but do some deep searching and see if it calls you and why. Its like most things, many will pick it up and it will either be the love of their life or it will lead them onto something else as they are exploring.

Churches can sometimes make us dependent on their rules and ideals; we have expectations that they have it right but if it is not right for you, you can make yourself miserable for years trying to make it all fit, but in the end, you will have to find your own path.

Besides that, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, there are Catholic priests and laity who practice CM and find no conflict.

I think it depends on why you want to do the magick and what kind of magick.

And of course, don't forget that the mass is virtually a magickal ritual, but what is important is what they are trying to achieve with that.

I just keep coming back to it in my life. I go through cycles of depression and at the end of each cycle I always end up coming back to this stuff and it seems to snap me out of it. It comes from an honest want to be part of something bigger, but not through any selfish purposes. Wanting to make a difference by God's will if you catch my meaning.

IT's not that I'd have to throw the baby out of the bathwater or anything, but it's perturbing that people of the opposite mind than myself, using magick for decidedly evil and selfish gains, could be using these same rituals I would be attempting. Why are they able to get results? And if I get results, why am I not in the same boat as them? I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly..

Hmmm maybe i can help. Im no mage but i am a practicing sorcy. The same rules apply to all of us though. I lucid dream and obe and even scry quite often. The fact is what the rest of the world thinks i could give two dead flys. As a dreamer i would never do anything while dreaming that i would not do while awake. Its unfortunate you cannot go by just feeling on this because its been drummed into you that all this is wrong. So in the end some real soul searching and thinking about the deeds of the catholic and christian past may help.

I think a certain degree of introspection is in order. Consider to yourself why practice any form of magick outside Catholic dogma? What is it that you hope magick would bring you that Catholicism doesn't already?

In my mind its not a sin to read about or study mysticism and the occult. In fact, when I was younger a priest from my old Catholic Church encouraged me to read into such topics. When one enters seminary school they don't just study the bible either. They study all kinds of different forms of religions. Where you create problems for yourself is when you start practicing magick not accepted by Catholicism. Which really anything that doesn't have to do with Catholic ritual and prayer is forbidden.

Once you've read more into other religions you may decide to convert or toss out religions in general.

Beyond that I do not think there is any loop hoop in Catholic dogma that would allow you to practice cerimonial magick.

I might be wrong but doesn't santeria and Voodoo utilize catholic saints and such for magic. If they can do it with impunity so should you. So look into those topics maybe it'll help you.

Hmmm maybe i can help. Im no mage but i am a practicing sorcy. The same rules apply to all of us though. I lucid dream and obe and even scry quite often. The fact is what the rest of the world thinks i could give two dead flys. As a dreamer i would never do anything while dreaming that i would not do while awake. Its unfortunate you cannot go by just feeling on this because its been drummed into you that all this is wrong. So in the end some real soul searching and thinking about the deeds of the catholic and christian past may help.

It's not so much the Church disagreeing, I tend to judge religious institutions by what they have evolved into the present, not the past.

I think a certain degree of introspection is in order. Consider to yourself why practice any form of magick outside Catholic dogma? What is it that you hope magick would bring you that Catholicism doesn't already?

In my mind its not a sin to read about or study mysticism and the occult. In fact, when I was younger a priest from my old Catholic Church encouraged me to read into such topics. When one enters seminary school they don't just study the bible either. They study all kinds of different forms of religions. Where you create problems for yourself is when you start practicing magick not accepted by Catholicism. Which really anything that doesn't have to do with Catholic ritual and prayer is forbidden.

Once you've read more into other religions you may decide to convert or toss out religions in general.

Beyond that I do not think there is any loop hoop in Catholic dogma that would allow you to practice cerimonial magick.

I guess I hope magick will bring me closer to God. Praying is all well and good, but I need something deeper, something more spiritual.

Its not a sin to read about or study mysticism in my mind at all either. I also think it's ridiculous for the church to prohibit people from experiencing something that will bring you closer to God, so I don't pay attention to that, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) I have too much respect for the institution, and too much respect for the laws i DO agree with to abandon it. I'm a die-hard catholic in that sense, and always will be.

The issue I'm having is more of a 'this Satanist is using the LBRP in the same manner I am, that makes me feel icky.' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fool.gif)

This post has been edited by JackConnor: Dec 6 2006, 09:41 PM

Hey man my best suggestion to you would be to study almost every religion you can. Now I don't mean delve profoundly within, but seek and try to understand the religions of the world and their origins, you'd be surprised how much influence Paganism has had on Christianity, and the profound similarities between the Catholics and the Voudun religions of Africa.

I'm not trying to convert you (as i'm sure that is the first thing you thought), what i'm trying to do is help you understand the "outer cloister" of Catholicism. Why this is important is that it will help destroy and cultivate the fear that has come from a little misunderstanding and perhaps more judgement of the material that is not too profoundly covered in the Catholic Church.

By understanding the religions of this world and their history/mythology, you will also be quite fond of your newly found knowledge. I promise you, this won't be a harrowing experience for you.

The choice is and always will be yours, but the fact of the matter is, to not fear something you must break within its guise and scrutinize it. I'm quite sure the priest of the Catholic church himself knows a fair amount about the occult and external religions and their beliefs/backgrounds, question him about what he knows.

All the best,
DeathStalker

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Dec 7 2006, 01:35 AM

IT's not that I'd have to throw the baby out of the bathwater or anything, but it's perturbing that people of the opposite mind than myself, using magick for decidedly evil and selfish gains, could be using these same rituals I would be attempting. Why are they able to get results? And if I get results, why am I not in the same boat as them? I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly..The issue I'm having is more of a 'this Satanist is using the LBRP in the same manner I am, that makes me feel icky.'

This reasoning doesn't work.

I use knives to chop vegetables, others use blades to make beautiful crafts with, others use blades to kill. See what I mean, there is nothing that you do that cannot be used for good or ill. Would you stop using knives in the kitchen to butter your bread or chop a nice tasty piece of cheese because every single day, someone misuses a valuable tool, no of course not and it is the same with magick, you use it wisely. It is often used for quite ordinary purposes, to connect to the other side to sort out a problem, ask for help etc etc.

This post has been edited by Radiant Star: Dec 7 2006, 04:29 AM

Satanists don't use the LBRP, to my knowledge, and if they do, then they borrowed it from another tradition (i.e. the Golden Dawn, which is all about spiritual growth, theurgy, etc.).

RadiantStar makes an excellent (and eloquent) point in regards to how a neutral thing (like magick or a knife) can be used for many different purposes - it can be a tool for us and a weapon for others. Just look at words, even - they can be used as a tool to communicate or as a verbal weapon.

Intent is a major thing, even moreso with magick.

LLLSHJ,
Y.

I am catholic as well and I practice ceremonial magick. The Catholic Church actually practices alot of magick. The mass is a great example. The incense, the candles, the vestments, holy water, novenas, rosaries, baptism, the list goes on and on.

The source material for ceremonial draws heavily from Jewish and early Christian sources. Many of the grimories use Jesus in the conjurations and prayers and requires you to recite the creed and hail Marys.

Modern groups such as the golden dawn are not a religion but rather a system to attain spiritual goals. The use of greek, egyptian, and pagan gods come from a Hermetic stand point where all religions and gods are nothing but a reflection of the one god as opposed to more worship type rites that pagans use in witchcrafts etc. The same goes in alchemy.

The bottom line is magick is not one thing or another. Some people practice magick as a form of spirituality that is part of a larger faith, others practice it as a faith itself. The methods and aims are as diverse as the people who use it.

Besides Vatican II was pretty clear that it is not a sin unless you feel morally guilty about it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_popeanim.gif)

Both Paul Foster Case and W.E.Butler served as priests within the 'Liberal Catholic Church.'

I cant remember in which book of his it is in but I remember Butler writing at length about
preparing for and giving the mass as a magical operation.
He details his intention and experience for each stage from donning the robes to giving the sacrement.
its an interesting read if you can find it - sorry I cant be more help at guiding you to it though.

Wow, suffice it to say there's a lot of stuff here I didn't understand. Thankyou all for responding and illuminating some of the finer points of why I don't need to feel apprehensive about this. I REALLY appreciate it, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This thread has progressed nicely. I like the idea of the knife it is a weapon of war but also for buttering bread. Thats how i see magic. Considering magic evil is like saying get rid of all knives and guns. The "tool" is not the problem its the user. Magic is a tool and it can be evil or good or even grey depending on who handles it. Practicing magic is not evil practicing magic for greedy or vindictive reasons is not only threefold but now your putting a powerful tool in the hands of the wrong person. Einstien realized what neclear power can be used for but it can also power the world with very liittle waste product.

[quote] I'm a Roman Catholic and I'm obscenely worried about my spiritual self getting into some trouble by doing this stuff.[/quote]

I see this question over and over again and I guess I am entitled to have a say Christian or not and ideology aside...You cannot be both a Christian and practice the occult. If you seek another way you are blaspheming God... Don't believe me? Your bible agrees... Also there is power in the occult this is true, but it comes at a cost.

Deuteronomy 18:14
[ The Prophet ] The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so.[/quote]


Acts 8
Simon the Sorcerer
9Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria. He boasted that he was someone great, 10and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, "This man is the divine power known as the Great Power." 11They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. 12But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. 15When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. 17Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.[/quote]
18When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money 19and said, "Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."[/quote]
20Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin."
24Then Simon answered, "Pray to the Lord for me so that nothing you have said may happen to me."
25When they had testified and proclaimed the word of the Lord, Peter and John returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many Samaritan villages.



Acts 19
13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[d] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power. [/quote]

Oh and for that one a drachmas is a days wage... so these people were so terrified that they burned scrolls for 50,000 days wages... That translates to 141 years roughly just to give you an idea.




Good luck... now as for what you choose to do with that it is your choice... I am merely putting it out there that it is impossible to be both a good Christian and to practice Magick.

This post has been edited by waldoworld: Jan 10 2007, 08:00 PM

Ave

I dare to disagree with you waldoworld. The key of those texts lies in their translation, and as the very superstitious church and fundamentalist christians do not want to allow any magick at all, because they do not understant it, they translate things like "Deciever" and "Poisoner" in the original as Sorcerer and Witch in the translated edition. While true that there is much in the Bible to be said about Divination, it is speaking directly at Necromancy (or using the spirits of the dead to divine the past, present, and future) as that was the most prevelant type of divination at the time of the writings. And, it is obvious why the Bible would forbid such acts as disturbing the spirits of the dead at all, it is very disgraceful and hinders the conjured soul at it's very core. This is also what the Bible calls Sorcery (or ledgermain as many of these "Sorcerers" demonstrated tricks to fool the peoples into believing they had attained Spiritual Gifts). When you look at the Bible, you see many instances of Magick, in none other than Jesus Christ Himself, such as He spit into dirt and made a healing salve that gave the blind man sight, and purifying the well with blessed salt (let's not even get started on His breaking bread with His Disciples). And my final contestation to your very strong posisition is the fact that Western Ceremonial Magick is entirely based upon the Kabbalah, a tool of the Rabbis, who knew the Torah in and out, and were Priests first and foremost, not Magicians, and took to this system emphatically. When it comes down to it, High Magick is in perfect accord with the scriptures. It is not a "Christian" thing to deny what the Church can't control, that's a Church thing. One thing that is a constant in my Magick, is my aim for Grace from God, Communion with Christ, Through the Holy Spirit, without whom, I could do nothing.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 11 2007, 03:56 AM

hi ... most of what everyone practices is ritual based on some deeply (or not so deeply) held spiritual beliefs. the roman catholic church is deeply committed to ritual and magic. unfortunately, the leadership of the church do not share with the people the magic of the rituals. you can learn about the more mystical and magic involved in the every day rituals of the catholic church by studying those rituals on a deep level ... through the teachings of the jesuits or rosicrusians. just walking into any church or cathedral harkens all kinds of magical design through the use of sacred geometry and the like.

most of everything the catholics do is based on older rituals from more ancient belief systems ... and the same is true about all modern religions and rituals. after all, if god is good and god created everything ... what's the real problem with anything except that superimposed by man?

as a christian, i can attest that jesus christ wants you to know god whichever path that takes you down ... perhaps you cannot be a "good christian" according to someone's dogma or doctrine, but jesus taught that "I AM" is the way ... start studying what "I AM" means in the jewish faith, and perhaps you can get a glimpse of what jesus meant versus what religious people have claimed he meant.

This post has been edited by business voodoo: Jan 15 2007, 02:06 AM

Ave

I dare to disagree with you waldoworld. The key of those texts lies in their translation, and as the very superstitious church and fundamentalist christians do not want to allow any magick at all, because they do not understant it, they translate things like "Deciever" and "Poisoner" in the original as Sorcerer and Witch in the translated edition. While true that there is much in the Bible to be said about Divination, it is speaking directly at Necromancy (or using the spirits of the dead to divine the past, present, and future) as that was the most prevelant type of divination at the time of the writings. And, it is obvious why the Bible would forbid such acts as disturbing the spirits of the dead at all, it is very disgraceful and hinders the conjured soul at it's very core. This is also what the Bible calls Sorcery (or ledgermain as many of these "Sorcerers" demonstrated tricks to fool the peoples into believing they had attained Spiritual Gifts). When you look at the Bible, you see many instances of Magick, in none other than Jesus Christ Himself, such as He spit into dirt and made a healing salve that gave the blind man sight, and purifying the well with blessed salt (let's not even get started on His breaking bread with His Disciples). And my final contestation to your very strong posisition is the fact that Western Ceremonial Magick is entirely based upon the Kabbalah, a tool of the Rabbis, who knew the Torah in and out, and were Priests first and foremost, not Magicians, and took to this system emphatically. When it comes down to it, High Magick is in perfect accord with the scriptures. It is not a "Christian" thing to deny what the Church can't control, that's a Church thing. One thing that is a constant in my Magick, is my aim for Grace from God, Communion with Christ, Through the Holy Spirit, without whom, I could do nothing.

Ad Scientiam

I totally agree with you here Lucian and I will say that you've presented a very elegant argument. What it is, is this, if you read the bible literally, with only one interpretaiton then indeed magick is off limits, along with pretty much half the pleasures of the world.

To answer the question of the post, let me just say that the LBRP, the BRH, the RCR and most Golden Dawn ceremonial type ritual is perfectly suited to christians to practice. It's just another form of prayer, indeed a form that has some power. Also, you'll find the use of many different voices just another way of accepting the many aspects that God represents, after all in the old testament God killed, and killed and killed.

Hmmm i agree with most right up until the end here. First off prayer and magic are nothing a like. Second when you practice differant "spells" your calling on pagan gods to help. Now as a non christian i can harp on how there religion comes from mine (pagan) all day, but the fact is that you do call on false gods while casting. Dependiing on the spell and the branch of magick its from. That is considered by the bible to be wrong.
Also the bible does specifically state on more than one occasion that magic and sorcery are not godly. And its not a matter of how you read it. it directly says this.
Simon the magus was shunned by god for his practices.
I would be willing to bet that its fairly unbiblical and ungodly to us about anything in simons necro. And to caste anything on a human against there will or without there knowledge. well thats just plane black magic period.
How about Enochian magick you "summon" angels and demons? Or at the least you use them. Somehow i really doubt that looks so good in the eyes of god.

I could really care less myself but you did ask. And thats about as non candy coated as it gets.

enochian ... i totally feel you as that is exactly what happened ... the 'renaming' or co-opting of spells and rituals from other names of more ancient traditions ... absolutely, it was done quite well and integrated quite masterfully.

but, bear in mind, that many of the christian prayers are said to various 'names' of god ... although the modern evenagelical christians have forgotten how to use the names of god (and kind of just fall into that "heavenly father" one) and do not use the magic of their faith in their prayer rituals, in the roman catholic tradition in particular, the various names of god are involved for the various prayer rituals/spells that are synonyms of the pagen gods or egyptian gods or the hindi gods, etc., etc. 'hail mary' would be a spell under any other name. if you study st. francis or any other of the more esoteric based saints/monks/founders of catholic traditions, you will find a deep tradition in spells and invoking the various names of god to energize the ritual/spell/prayer. and the bible says that magic, sorcery and prophesy, calling in the spirit, hands-on-healing, levitation and the like are all "wrong" if not used within the context of the "church" where it is more than encouraged (that is obviously an orchestration of scripture in order to maintain power and control over "us" and "them").

call this "1" "one" or "uno" or "un" or "mono" or "fill-in-the-blank" ... its like the tower of babel for religions ... what words do you use to do ______________. fill it in with the one that fits you the best ... after all, all roads are good, and they ultimately lead to the same place ... even if there are different beaches in that place. but your point of their abduction of the rituals from the ancient pagans of europe is dead on, which is why i think so many ex-"christians" find a natural affinity for and comfort in the pagan rituals and traditions.

Thanks Business. This topic came up for me prior to this when i was discussing Mantras. Useing OM and other mantras. I realize that im not breaking the rules at all. I believe in god and i believe that Jesus did do what it says he did. The thing that makes you open your eyes is the study of other religions. MANY of the world religions believe in dreaming as a way of life. And even parts of the bible are written from a obe or lucid dream. Many of the acts of Jesus himself,Noah,Moses, Ezekiel,Solomon the list of people that are like great magicians in the bible goes on and on. I was made in the likeness of god as we all were. So if this was something frowned upon or taboo why then does god have us find him through looking into ourself? i believe that as most of you said The bible has been changed by RULEING people to make us fit the sheep category im always complaining about.

Magick is no more evil than a loaded gun is. Its all about who wields it....I myself have some very dark tendancies that show through at times but i have learned more about life and the occult by starting to learn of magic and im better for it.

I cannot stress enough anyone considered to be outside the box or a free thinker is bad so dont let religion and politics decide your fate. They after all already ruin us and decide enough for us that we have no choice about. Anytime a lay person has a chance to gain "power" or anything its always supressed. Of course why would these high ranking officials ever want us to be able to see through there lies just by glancing at there aura. Or becoming to powerful and overthrowing them....So instead they take and corrupt the bible to decive us and keep us in fear of our true potentials. I mean come on the KING james bible....thats funny enough as it is. Let someone in power change a book of such great importance...Would we let George w Bush revise the bible? Heck no he cannot even talk riight. lol

The government and religion want it ALL for themselves. The more we learn, the more we astral travel, the more we focus, and summon the more secrets are revealed. And thats bad for certain people..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

This post has been edited by Enochian: Jan 15 2007, 03:58 PM

Ave

Enochian, I will edit this later, but one thing I MUST correct you on is that the Simon mentioned in Acts that speaks of his ways being ungodly is in NO WAY the Simon that published the Necronomicon. That Simon is Peter Lavenda and is quite still alive and well. The Simon in Acts was Simon Magus, a fairly lecherous but none the less inspired Gnostic teacher, in many ways he reflects Crowley, and it was more of his promiscuity and his saying that he was the incarnation of the Epinoina and that his prostitute companion was the Nous (like claiming that you're Jesus and that your call girl is the Virgin Mary) that really gained him the enmity of the early church, hence the myth that puts him up dire straits in a book of the Holy Bible. And, as an aside, Magus was a title, and if anyone calls to this as a sure sign that he was a Sorcerer, remember the holy event of the 3 Magi coming to the Christ-child's bedside.

Ad Scientiam

This post has been edited by Lucian: Jan 16 2007, 01:25 AM

LOL yes i know the two are not the same. The simon in the bible was a powerful mage. It even mentions that he knows of almost all magic. But than he offers money to know of "gods" magic and thats when he is shunned. Because that type of magic cannot be bought it just has to be known and certain beliefs must hold true to utilize the magic he tried to bye in the bible.

I do remember they gave him some of the greatest treasures of that time. Treasures a mystic or mage would utilize,

This post has been edited by Enochian: Jan 16 2007, 11:00 AM

God and Lucifer don't exactly play on the same team.

Don't stray from the faith which you have chosen. Suffice to what many people believe Christianity is a powerful religion in this world, as well as in the "spirit" world. Although many priest won't admit to this. In any religion there are observances, which include things you do and don't do. Name a few rules you're unhappy with.

If you're just bored with your religion I'd research into the topic of exorcisms; see what's required spiritually. Not just the Catholic exorcism, other faiths as well Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. When I was looking through some stuff, the general sense was that these observances help strengthen your spirit or somehow influenced some divine favor.

Catholicism is without its own mysteries; you just have to find them.

This post has been edited by plainsight: Jan 17 2007, 12:36 PM

Thats all good. But i think his point is if he can practice ritual magic and other things without god "frowning" upon him.

been there, done that - just keep your mouth shut or you'll get kicked out of the church by the jealous zealous

if you stick with adonai eolam (god without limits) and working with the angels type stuff and avoid the goetia you should be fine in the eyes of IA

go on - dig in! start off with, say, iamblichus's theurgy and work forward from there into gnosis (from darkness to light)

when you've gone as far as you can go, then try defining this little ditty:

Conjuration of the Seven of Solomon the Sage

1. In the name of Michael, may Jehovah command thee and drive thee hence, Chavajoth!

2. In the name of Gabriel, may Adonai command thee, and drive thee hence, Bael!

3. In the name of Raphael, begone before Elial, Samgabiel!

4. By Samael Sabaoth, and in the name of Elohim Gibor, get thee hence, Andrameleck!

5. By Zachariel et Sachiel-Meleck, be obedient unto Elvah, Sanagabril!

6. By the divine and human name of Shaddai, and by the sign of the Pentagram, which I hold in my right hand, in the name of the angel Anael, by the power of Adam and Eve, who are Iod-Chavah, begone Lilith! Let us rest in Peace, Nahemah!

7. By the holy Elohim and by the names of the Genii Cashiel, Sehaltiel, Aphiel and Zarahiel, at the command of Orifiel, depart from us Moloch! We deny thee our children to devour!


enjoy,

e.

This post has been edited by esoterica: Jan 17 2007, 05:45 PM

John, I have felt exactly the way that you have. I was raised Roman catholic and to this day a few catholic teachings that are anti-magick still haunt my thoughts. However I believe that magic is only as black as your heart. I still observe many teachings that are found in the New testament, though I am not exactly a catholic.
But like you I felt this call that eventually i could not refuse. Almost like a whisper in the wind. I feel that for somereason my path takes to a practisioner of magic. Do what you feel. If u refuse it, it is likely only to speak again. Just know that the world is a beautiful place if you choose to see it that way.

believe it or not, I was a Catholic as well. I went to schools run by nun's who like nothing more than telling us we would go to hell for just about anything, it was funny (looking back).

My advice is this, which is similar to others advice. Practice 'white' magick which is basically develoment of the spirit. Two books of interest for you may be Modern Magick by Donald Michael Kraig which does a good job of decsribing the one god (i.e. your god is my god is his god etc) and Secrets of the Magickal Grimoires by Aaron Leitch, which does a good job in describing how the Catholic Church wrote most of the grimoires etc. There is also a book called The knights Templar which is a factual history of the order and goes into describing how the Catholic Church came about.

After practicing magick for a while, the realisation dawned on me that God wants to know us and also that traditional religion is largely getting in the way of that by following their own objectives. Sitting in church for one hour per week thinking of other stuff isn't getting closer to god. Practising the Our Father (which is basically exactly the same as the QC ritual that preceeds the LBRP and BRH) daily with meaning is.

I believe that the only way to god is through me, not me BrotherM, me as in myself, yourself, personally. Use th magick as a referrence, along with your religious background and follow your intuition.

Now, aside, Plainsight, who told you that God and Lucifer don't play for the same team? Have you spoken to either? Do you think there is existance outside of G-ds will?

BrotherM

If anyone has any advice for me I'd really appreciate it. I want to be closer with my HGA and thereby God by doing a little magick everyday, I desperately want Him to work through me, but what if unwittingly I allow myself to be worked by an entity with less than amiable goals? Etc., etc.

Thanks in advance..

Like you, I consider myself a Christian and most of my family is Catholic (although I am not). Only you can decide which path is right for you. Keep in mind that much of the Christian religion is founded upon the words of people who were visited by spirits, took spiritual journeys, had visions, etc. St Paul himself claimed to have experienced his conversion because of a vision he had in the desert. Most all of the disciples were taught and practiced healing, considered themselves prophets, etc.. The entire course of Judeo-Christian history is full of people who, you could say, practiced magick. St Paul is just one example... there are many others.... for instance - The founder of the Mormon church was a man who claimed to have met an angel and received divine instruction. Jesus instructed his followers to continue his work after he was gone... and he may have been the most powerful magician who ever walked on Earth.

Study the history of the first two hundred years of Christianity... I am very confident that you will find that on one hand, the church considers people who've "meddled with spirits" to be saints, while on the other hand, warns the flock that meddling with spirits is the path directly to hell. Think about it..an organized church wants to have all people believe that the only way to talk to God (or Gods, or angels, spirits, ect) is through the priest... because that is what benefits the church and gives the church control, power and money.

There is always a chance that you may end up being unwittingly worked by some unknown entity, but couldn't that happen anyway? If your intentions are pure, then you have nothing to fear.

Hi

I am new to this forum, having just joined today, and have been reading this post with some interest. My own religious background is High Episcopalian but over the years I have explored a number of paths ranging from Thelema to Russian Orthodoxy. As I see it, Religion and Magic are both about the search for Truth, a Truth that is too vast, and too holy, to be ever fully contained within a single vessel.

I do not see that there is any contradiction between the practise of Magic and faith in Christ Jesus. Spiritual Magic was an integral part of the Gnostic Tradition in the centuries before the Council of Nicea began the process of transforming a syncretic, libertarian religious movement into an instrument of state and social control.

My own introduction to what I would call the magical use of the imagination came through meditation techniques taught to me by a Benedictine Monk who acted as my spiritual director when I was at university & in his own way he was one of the most effective magicians I have ever met.

Many of the great Magi of the Rennaisance and of the 17th and 18th centuries were devout Christians, I think of men like Dr John Dee, Pico Della Mirandolla, Elias Ashmole & Robert Fludd off the top of my head. Anna Bonus Kingsford converted to Catholicism as did (at least according to Ithell Colquhoun) did MacGregor Mathers.

Even in more recent decades, a high percentage of the members of the Stella Matutina were Christians, and a considerable number of them were also clergymen.

There are certainly some schools of magic, mainly the Rosicrucian, Cabalistic and Hermetic, that are probably more compatible with Christianity than others and I would certainly say that if a particular technique or practise feels wrong than one should initially abstain but also spend time medititating on your reactions to determine whether they are due to adherence to a dogma or to a genuine conflict with your personal spiritual core.

It should also be said that magic is about intention and acting with knowledge, a good grounding in Cabala, Hermetic Philosophy and the works of some of the great western saints and mystics will provide a storng theoretical framework but without translation into daily life and action it remains only headstuff. My personal feeling is that working within a religious paradigm helps to ground and focus ones magical work. Putting it into the context of the daily ups and downs of growing, developing, slipping back etc.

One book I can definitely recommend is called Patterns in Magical Christianity - it takes a number of basic magical meditation and visualisation exercises and puts them into the broader framework of Christian Theosophy. I can also recommend anything by David Goddard.

Hope this is of some use to you!