Lbrp Ritual, is there any differences in respect of the hemispheres? Options

Hi guys i cam across this site http://vsociety.net/ from one member who posted a topic on psiballs. I came to the LBRP explained there http://forums.vsociety.net/topic/7777.0
There is something that intringues me.. As i live in the southern hemisphere, this paragraph interests me:

One also moves in a clockwise direction, to follow the direction of the sun. If you live in the southern hemisphere you travel counter-clockwise, and exchange ADNI in the south for AGLA in the north.

• Starting in the east, drawn the banishing pentagram and vibrate YHVH (Yeh-ho-vah)
• Draw a line to the south and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate ADNI (A-do-nai)
• Draw a line to the west and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate AHIH (E-he-ieh)
• Draw a line to the north and draw the banishing pentagram, vibrate AGLA (Ah-goo-lah)
• Draw a line back to the east to complete the circle.

Does that mean that after the 1st penta for YHVH, i turn antoclockwise???? confusing

what i normally do is that i have my compass... i know where it shows east north south west...
for the first penta i do it in the east direction of the compass. .then i move clockwise to go to south for the next penta.. Am i doing it right over here.. else i think i completely sucked in my LBRPs... But i think that invoking the divine with the atah malkuth ... le oh lahm etc is quite powerful to keep shit off.... well some advice from the experienced ones...

i think you doing it right way, then i guess you should again check with someone from your side of world, thing with lbrp is that i didnt really come across in literature of completely and properly explained version, that might be reason why you feel that you dont have much success in performing it, then again it takes time too.
i briefly looked at that txt explaining lbrp it looks good to me, i just didnt see if its mentioned that Archangels you visualise turned outwards for banishing and facing you for evoking, i still havent had my coffee...

I live in the Southern Hemisphere.
Don't change a thing. That website saying that you must change directions and names according to geographic ubication, is tottaly wrong.
The LBRP works with the Archangelic names and God names for the corresponding element. Each name has a direction and in traditional Magick system, it doesn't change.
The LBRP works on Yetzirah, so the directions cannot be changed.
Only when working with elementals you might think about directions according your geographical situation, but even then that is not very recommendable. In Wicca they tend to do this kind of things, but not in traditional System.
You may change the Directions for experimentation, but I bet you will go back to the traditional setting.
Try it both ways. I recommend the usual one.

W.

like a lot of thing its more symbolic than anything, also as for east; magical east works as well as actual east(magic east = direction your facing), thats how i do it any way. though as most things in cm/magick you need to do what makes it work for you so ether way will work imo.

I Stay in South Africa you cant go much further South but the poles (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have been practicing it as is for years.. And I have had nothing but good results.. Try it both ways and see if it makes any differance I doubt very much that it will .. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by Frater SI: Sep 22 2006, 11:05 AM

I was just looking up some golden dawn video's at Google.com.

And i found this, Rather funny lbpr video. In the middle of the ritual a little dog is walking around..
Any thought about how this ritual could be by the book ? Is it like this it should be performed ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2...8&q=golden+dawn

Cool, I hadn't seen that one before.

Actually, I think he did an excellent job at it. (sounds a bit goofy in the spoken parts, as if trying to sound a little sinister . . . course, the camera will put a couple pounds on LOL)

His performance of the ritual was well done, good vibration (bit lodge'ie sounding) and he seems well practiced at the form.

A+

I think everyone would benefit from video taping thier rituals. Not only does it give you a chance to view and critic it from a "detached" point of reference (as well as the photographer as in this one) . . . but to submit it to the general (internet) public for "peer review" is not only brave and confident, but an excellent way to solicite additional critic.

Yes, it look basically "by the book" . . . although, everyone (after practice and assimilation) adds, removes and modifies certain aspects to fit thier personal work and style

Dogs are dogs . . . mine sometimes hangs-out around my space . . . and lets not even start on the darn cat who ALWAYS!! wants indoors during ritual (right in the middle usually)

Just, no one should assume that what is seen on this (or any) video is the only way it should be done. This, and every, ritual is a development of a personal practice.
Its only "right" when its done by the person the way its done by THAT person.

nice, thanks St. Ian.

This post has been edited by palindroem: Oct 22 2006, 12:05 PM

The LBRP video is accurate, but I would just like to say for any complete beginners that wonder how they are going to vibrate that long, that loudly in their family home or anywhere else, you CAN achieve results by quietly saying the words as long as your intent and focus is there.

Have to say, it is more fun to dress up and thrust out your sword and let rip though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/partytime.gif)

Have to say, it is more fun to dress up and thrust out your sword and let rip though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/partytime.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif)

Great video!

hallo,
can you perform the LBRP ritual with your eyes closed especially when drawing the pentagram.
or should i keep my eyes open all the while and let it be an open-eyed visualization as mentioned by konstatinos.
visualizing with open eyes are definately hard.

You can do it with your eyes closed but it would be better to keep your eyes open. That way you can be certain the lines are exactly straight and meet where they need to. It is important that all the angels are perfect.

Once you have this down pat while you draw them if you follow the line you are drawing your astral senses should start to open to a degree where you can actually see them as you form them. It will begin as visualization as you said until it slowly becomes more real.

where you can actually see them as you form them. It will begin as visualization as you said until it slowly becomes more real.
[/quote]
thanks.
so you mean i can actually see the blue flame formed as if it were real.

Well, honestly Trinetra, this will be different (in degrees) for each person. Some may eventually "see" flaming pentagrams around them, with open eyes. Others, (myself included) visualize the pentagrams (or whatever symbol) fine with eyes closed . . . but get nearly nothing with them open. And other people never get any or only the "thinnest" visualization of the pentagram.
And . . . all of the above can be considered successful LBRP performance. Although the use of visualization is an important skill to develop up to a persons best capacity, its by no means a necessity for the effective use of the LBRP. Simply knowing that there IS energy being projected, and that it IS formed into a pentagram will suffice.

Plus, this ritual is really a personal building-block type of "operation". Nero has his method of conducting the ritual, and thats whats successful for him. But truely, the success of the performance of the LBRP is less in maintaining a purity to anyone else's method of performance, and more in practicing with it to the point that it becomes a personal flow of ritual movement.
As such, Nero (and good beginning practice) may find that the drawing of the pentagrams needs clear and precise angular visualization . . . which is fine.
Other may find that the actual drawing of the pentagrams needs less technicality . . . but that they need to be able to visualize perfect pents afterward
And still others may never bother with the exact drawing or visualization, only simply "knowing" the perfect intent was there.


Practice . . . find whatever way and Practice.

The reason you walk around the circle clockwise is because that's the path the sun appears to take throughout the year on the horizon. Clockwise motion in rituals is sometimes called sunwise because of this. This is a life-affirming movement, for want of a better phrase. The eastern quadrant is where the sun rises every day, bringing new light.

Anti-clockwise movement is sometimes called widdershins, I believe. I'm unsure if this is supposed to be in correspondence with the movement of the black sun through the sky during the year or not. The western quadrant is where the sun sets, bringing the night.

If you're elsewhere in the universe this may be reversed, it depends on local conditions!

The reason you walk around the circle clockwise is because that's the path the sun appears to take throughout the year on the horizon. Clockwise motion in rituals is sometimes called sunwise because of this. This is a life-affirming movement, for want of a better phrase. The eastern quadrant is where the sun rises every day, bringing new light.

Anti-clockwise movement is sometimes called widdershins, I believe. I'm unsure if this is supposed to be in correspondence with the movement of the black sun through the sky during the year or not. The western quadrant is where the sun sets, bringing the night.

If you're elsewhere in the universe this may be reversed, it depends on local conditions!

Greetings Zugzwangm,

I don't think I agree with this assessment.

First of all, the sun's path along the horizon is not circular. It oscillates from a northern extreme (June solstice) to a southern extreme (December solstice) never traveling more than 47 degrees. I think by "movement along the horizon" what your are referring to is the apparent path of the sun along the ecliptic which moves from Aries to Taurus to Gemini, etc. in an anti-clockwise manner for the northern hemisphere. This is the coordinate system used by astrologers as well as one of the coordinates used by modern astronomers.

Or it could be the apparent path of the sun around the celestial pole. In the northern hemisphere the north celestial pole is above the horizon and the sun's motion is from east to west; hence anti-clockwise for an individual looking at the pole. In the southern hemisphere the southern celestial pole is above the horizon and the sun's motion is also from east to west, but is seen as clockwise for an individual looking at the pole.

It seems like if there was an astronomical reason for the clockwise motion of the LBRP, it would be reverse to what people here are saying. Anti-clockwise in the Northern Hemisphere, and clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere. But things get tricky at equatorial latitudes since both the north and south celestial poles are even to the horizon. If you look to the southern pole, the sky and sun appear to rotate in a clockwise manner and if you look north the sky and sun rotate in a counter-clockwise manner. So it basically depends on which direction you are looking.

In sum, I don't think one can argue a hemisphere-based version of the LBRP based on any astronomical/ observational reality. I frequently travel between both hemispheres and use the LBRP successfully in the traditional clockwise motion.

Note:

I've been thinking about this further and there is a possible correlation to clockwise movement in the northern hemisphere if the perspective is from the north celestial pole looking down onto a location in the northern hemisphere. In this this hypothetical perspective, the sun will indeed appear to move in a clockwise manner and the opposite is true for the southern hemisphere (south celestial pole perspective). But there does not seem to be any logical reasoning for taking this perspective since from this location it becomes apparent that the earth is rotating around the sun and thus clockwise or anti-clockwise becomes irreverent.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 25 2006, 03:47 AM

You can do it with your eyes closed but it would be better to keep your eyes open. That way you can be certain the lines are exactly straight and meet where they need to. It is important that all the angels are perfect.

Once you have this down pat while you draw them if you follow the line you are drawing your astral senses should start to open to a degree where you can actually see them as you form them. It will begin as visualization as you said until it slowly becomes more real.

Greetings Nero,

I would have to agree that the Angles of the Pentagrams should intersect forming a type of Energy Conduction. To me it's like elctricity, if there is a break in the electrical circuitry, then there will be no electrical activity from begining of circuit to the connection of the continuation of that circuit.

I would like to give an example of the practice in beginning to form the LBRP Pentagrams from my early days. I would basically practice standing facing the Cardinal directions with a lit incense wand in my hand before the Sun would be over the morning horizon. This would make it kind of dark in my Temple Space, and I could see the tip of the lit incense wand and bluish white smoke trailing from its tip tracing the Pentagrams. This aided me in my beginning visualization, until I started performing the LBRP with a Double Wand of Power, with the Black end facing outward. Then I started to develop the ability to project the Pentagrams to the horizons through visualization.

Respectfully,
Helel (Joseph)

Greetings Zugzwangm,

I don't think I agree with this assessment.

First of all, the sun's path along the horizon is not circular. It oscillates from a northern extreme (June solstice) to a southern extreme (December solstice) never traveling more than 47 degrees. I think by "movement along the horizon" what your are referring to is the apparent path of the sun along the ecliptic which moves from Aries to Taurus to Gemini, etc. in an anti-clockwise manner for the northern hemisphere. This is the coordinate system used by astrologers as well as one of the coordinates used by modern astronomers, etc...

You are mistaken. What I'm referring to is very simple, I don't see why you would have difficulty in agreeing or at least seeing the validity of my previous post at all - as it's based on the movement of the sun throughout the year, which everyone knows (if nobody paid attention to the cycle of the sun crops would fail and people would starve having not known that winter was about to pounce).

To reiterate:

Take a snapshot of the position of the sun at sunrise and set at both the height of summer and in the depths of winter; you'll see the sun appears to have moved from where it once was - to your right, clockwise, sunwise. This is the reason we walk about the circle clockwise and why this movement is called sunwise in many books on magick.

Water twirls clockwise down a plughole in the northern hemisphere of the earth and anti-clockwise in the southern hemisphere, thus I could say that drinking water in the southern hemisphere has negative effects or I could see that to say such a thing would be evident of my begin trapped in my own definitions - my own language. What is called the clockwise movement of water in the north is called anti-clockwise movement of water in the south, but they are both the same movement.

I think this should be taken into account for the LBRP wherever you happen to be in the universe.

I can't make it any more clear than that.

This post has been edited by Zugzwang: Dec 26 2006, 09:37 AM

Greetings Zugzwang,

I’m not trying to bust your balls, but this confusion should be cleared up for the sake of all.

As you mentioned In the height of summer (June solstice for the northern hemisphere) the sun is at a northern extreme whereby it moves to the southern extreme (December solstice) moving 47 degrees across the horizon from left to right if facing east or right to left if facing west. The sun stops at these extremes for a period of 2-3days (hence "solstice" from the Latin "sun + standstill"). After this solstice period, the apparent course of the sun across the horizon changes direction, returning from right to left . Viewed as a 2-D plan it is a such:

NE ---------------- E ------------------ SE
+23.5 ---------------- 0 ----------------- -23.5

Where -23.5 is the declination for winter solstice (northern hemisphere) and +23.5 is the declination for summer solstice, 0 being the declination for equinox. The sunrises oscillate from right to left (from winter to summer) for 6 months and then from left to right (summer to winter) also for 6 months. In which case either direction could be argued to be sun-wise.

There is no circle! The sun’s path on the horizon is from 23.5 degrees NE to 23.5 degrees SE… this is about ¼ of the N-S semicircle. The circle is the ecliptic NOT the horizon. The ecliptic is what is represented in astrological charts. The perspective of an astrological chart is from the north celestial pole looking down on the subject. In which case, yes, the plotted course of the sun moves clockwise throughout the year. But this is not an astronomical reality (as it is based on a geocentric perspective) so will not have any “real” bearing on the flow of energy in the ritual. It is a system of charting the sun, and if the Babylonian astrologers wanted to, they could have reversed the system (sun move counter-clockwise) and nothing would have changed. It was a choice, much in the same way that some cultures read from left to right, while others read from right to left.

There is NO astronomical reason for claiming the sun moves in a clockwise manner. The term sunwise comes from the common usage of the astrological coordinate system to chart the course of the sun. This is a system of measurement NOT an astronomical (or even observable) reality.

You seem to have an interest in how pre-industrial peoples viewed the sky. I suggest that you pick up a copy of Anthony Aveni's Skywatchers , or Clive Ruggles Astronomy in Prehistoric Britain, or Ed C. Krupp's book titled Echoes of Ancient Skies. There are tons of books and articles on the subject , these three are my favorites and by far the most straightforward approaches to positional astronomy and the processes through which cultures developed calendars...Good Reads!

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 26 2006, 11:59 AM

I’m not trying to bust your balls, but this confusion should be cleared up for the sake of all.

I think you're taking the piss.

(IMG:http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l37/Corporeal/Exoteric/7a0c4e06.jpg)

The rising sun is shown in the above diagram as a upward-pointing triangle, the setting sun is shown as a downward-pointing triangle. The solid line shows the path of the sun through the sky during the height of summer (the line should be depicted as curved, but for ease of comprehension and neatness it is drawn straight). The dotted line shows the path of the sun through the sky during the depths of winter.

As shown in the diagram by the arrows; from summer to winter the positions of the rising and setting sun moves clockwise. "Left to right if facing east or right to left if facing west" is thus invalidated as your not taking into account both the position of the rising and setting sun.

This clockwise movement is important and you cannot reverse the terms sunwise and widdershins as you suggest. Sunwise is a life-affirming movement and is told in the bible for example as the story of yahshua. I'm sure you know about the parallel story of horus as well. The story of tammuz is another that comes to mind (the phoenix, the light of the world, the sun of god which dies and three days later is resurrected).

Yes, the plotted course of the sun moves clockwise throughout the year. But this is not an astronomical reality (as it is based on a geocentric perspective) so will not have any “real” bearing on the flow of energy in the ritual (...) there is NO astronomical reason for claiming the sun moves in a clockwise manner. The term sunwise comes from the common usage of the astrological coordinate system to chart the course of the sun. This is a system of measurement NOT an astronomical (or even observable) reality.

As the geocentric perspective is obviously flawed I shall plant and nurture my plants whenever I'm in the mood! How well do you think my plants will do? The sun clearly has no effect whatsoever on how plants or animals behave throughout the year on planet earth. There is no observable evidence that bears for example have to hibernate due to the sun titling the balance of their local ecosystem, neither is there any evidence that crops planted at the wrong time of year fail. There is also no evidence to suggest that anything in magick has any correspondence to the movements of the stars or planets, even though the opposite is suggested very plainly by 777 - not to mention that magick is based, in general, on observable changes in corporeal or corporean reality which will naturally encompass the movement of the sun.

Greetings Zugzwang,

You are immensely confused. The diagram you have drawn is not correct. The path of the sun never crosses in the manner you show. During the June solstice the sun rises in the NE and sets in the NW (not SW). During the December solstice the sun rises in the SE and sets in the SW (not NW). What you have presented is an astronomical impossibility. Do your research! Better yet observe the sunrise and sunsets now as the sun is near its southern extreme...notice that both sunrise and sunset occur in the southern half of the sky!

Also you might want to look up the definition of the word "geocentric" in the dictionary as it has nothing to do with what you are arguing. Compare to "heliocentric".

Read those books I posted for you, the confusion will be cleared up. They really help understand all the New Age bullsh*t that is out there. I understand that your terminology derives from Scottish Folklore, but as you will see it has nothing to do with horizon positions.

My point is that for an observer on earth the sun moves along the horizon in two directions (Left to Right and Right to Left) these direction switch at each solstice so either direction can be called sunwise if measured relative to the horizon. THE POSITIONS OF SUNSETS/RISES DO NOT MOVE IN A CLOCKWISE MANNER, you could just as easily say they move counter-clockwise. The term does not come from horizon observation, it likely derives from either astrological charts, or the culturally relevant manner in which solar movement is explained, or the direction in which a shadow cast by a gnomon moves (hence sunwise = clockwise)...but not the suns movement along the horizon.

As for the LBRP, it really does not matter in which direction you move. If within your cosmological model the proper path is clockwise, so be it, or vice versa. You could argue that the sun moves counter-clockwise when looking at the north pole (in the northern hemisphere), and thus the proper motion is counter-clockwise, or you can say that the shadow of a gnomon moves clockwise (as a result of the counter-clockwise solar motion) and therefore the proper motion is clockwise. The explanation is culturally relevant (as to what you find more important) and thus does not hold any real weight.

Additional Note:

Ok, so I've been thinking quite a bit about this sunwise issue. Another explanation of clockwise being associated with sunwise in the northern hemisphere may have to do with where the sun reaches its highest point in temperate regions- such as Scotland (this does not hold true for the tropics b/w latitudes 23.5N and23.5S). In the northern hemisphere at latitudes above 23.5 the daily sun arc will reach its highest point in the southern half of the sky, the reverse is true for southern latitudes. Thus, sunwise could be interpreted as turning in the direction of the high sun (E-S-W-N for Northern latitudes and E-N-W-S for Southern latitudes). The problem is that this does not hold true for the tropics where the sun will reach its highest point directly overhead (zenith) two times a year.

This seems to be the only observable reason as to why clockwise would be considered sunwise. However, it has nothing to do with the path of the sun along the horizon. I still believe that this is a relative concept. While one culture may have found importance in the half of the sky where the sun reaches its maximum on a daily basis, another culture may have found that the movement of the celestial sphere around the visible celestial pole was more important.

For example, take two cultures that live in the northern hemisphere - both observe the movements of the sun. One finds that sunwise is following the direction of the high sun from its rising point and the other determines that sunwise is following the path of the sun(and entire celestial sphere) around the fixed pivot of the cosmos (the celestial pole). The first culture will produce rituals with clockwise movement due to their concept of sunwise, the second culture will produce counter-clockwise rituals also arguing that they are moving sunwise. Both cultures are right!

Thus, the importance of which direction you turn in the LBRP has nothing to do with a universal reality, but rather with a cultural perspective.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 28 2006, 09:07 PM

Also you might want to look up the definition of the word "geocentric" in the dictionary as it has nothing to do with what you are arguing. Compare to "heliocentric".

From your tone there alone I can derive three things:
1. You know that I know exactly what geocentric and heliocentric means - along with everything else mentioned throughout this thread.
2. You have a problem with my knowing of these topics.

Ergo, 3. You want to avoid ever having to learn such basics as are covered in this topic and others - so you spend your time here manufacturing lies to disguise exactly what scripted 4D emotional drama you are playing out here with me as part of it.

From this geocentric perspective I can see that changes in what we call seasons can be correlated to how the sun is moving through the sky.

Read those books I posted for you, the confusion will be cleared up.

This is where the condescending tone throughout your posts reaches it's height! I've read skywatchers but not the other two. What I know of astrology stems from the barbara clow books - which reminds me; when I popped up into chelmsford not long ago I meet a group of professional astrologers who in all seriousness could only look at the charts and say "that's interesting". Even when asked about the nature of a trine they couldn't really say anything - and some folks must pay these people for their interpretations!

I asked them about how astrology actually works and one person, I've since forgotten his name, waffled on about the energetic state of the solar system and how planets focus energy from the zodiacal stars, without an actual unifying concept behind it all - when it was patent to me that the planets are essentially vortexes in the aether, just like the chakra model.

7 ancestral planets
7 wheels
7 metals
7 days
etc.
Which can be overlaid on the babalon yantra or the seed of life pattern.

If you look into stan tenen's or dan winter's work you'll see the 7 turn labyrinth spells out the first few letters in genesis, which contains the rest of the torah/bible (just as the phi spiral contains itself, as it's a recursive form - the same way you can grow a tree from a seed or leaf, which contains in itself the same branching pattern. The correspondences go on and on... just like the phi spiral!).

My point is that for an observer on earth the sun moves along the horizon in two directions (Left to Right and Right to Left) these direction switch at each solstice so either direction can be called sunwise if measured relative to the horizon. THE POSITIONS OF SUNSETS/RISES DO NOT MOVE IN A CLOCKWISE MANNER, you could just as easily say they move counter-clockwise (...) you could argue that the sun moves counter-clockwise when looking at the north pole (in the northern hemisphere), and thus the proper motion is counter-clockwise, or you can say that the shadow of a gnomon moves clockwise (as a result of the counter-clockwise solar motion) and therefore the proper motion is clockwise. The explanation is culturally relevant (as to what you find more important) and thus does not hold any real weight.

You're wrong, still. The terms sunwise and widdershins are based on the movement of the sun throughout the year. You won't find any argument that sunwise (whether that's clockwise or anti-clockwise to us, depending on where you are in the universe and your planet's movement/axial tilt in relation to your sun) is the more 'important' for reasons I've already detailed (temperature, exposure to more sunlight, etc - which effects all life on this planet).

From summer to winter, sunwise: the birth and progression of life. The white sun.
From winter to summer, widdershins: the death and rebirth of life. The black sun.

Which has been used for thousands of years in one guise or another and this is the reason we move about the circle clockwise during the LBRP. As I've already said, there's no way to make it any clearer.

This post has been edited by Zugzwang: Dec 29 2006, 10:58 AM

Greetings Zugzwang,

I'm sorry if I came across in a condescending manner, that was not my intention. I am solely trying to sort out a mistake that may help you understand the motion of the sun across the horizon. My other goal was to explain how sunwise and widdershins are cultural concepts and NOT astronomical universals, and how such cultural interpretations will define the proper motion in ritual.

First re-read my posts above, I pointed out a critical flaw in your concept...this is the root of your confusion. In the "height of summer" (i.e. northern solstice for the northern hemisphere) the sun travels its northern-most path. This means that the sun rises in the Northeast and sets in the Northwest...you cannot possibly argue anything else. Similarly in the "depths of winter" (southern solstice for the southern hemisphere) the sun rises in the Southeast and sets in the Southwest. Not as you are arguing (SE-NW and NE-SW). The sun's path does not cross.

Second. The movement of the sun along the horizon is back and forth (i.e. it oscillates). The example I'll give you is for the northern hemisphere. During the "depths of winter" the sun is rising and setting at its southern extreme (SE and SW), ok? As the days progress after this winter solstice the sunrises begin to move northwards (right to left) until it reaches the center of its path (due east) on the day of equinox. After equinox the sunrises continue moving from right to left until we reach the "height of summer" (northern solstice). The sunrises seem to not move for a period of 2-3 days (hence "solstice"). Then the sun begins to RETURN along its path, CHANGING DIRECTION, and moves southwards (left to right). The same is happening with the sunsets except the directions are reversed so that from winter to summer you are viewing the sunsets left to right, and from summer to winter they move right to left. So along the horizon the suns path cannot be clockwise or counterclockwise as it is both. Sunwise and Widdershin refers to the daily path of the sun over our heads (see my post above regarding the high point of the sun), not movement along the horizon.

As to the geocentirc debate (do yourself a favor and look up what it means, it is the model of the solar system, to deny it is to say that the planets and sun revolve around earth)... you seem to think that I don't value positional astronomy. This is not the case otherwise I would not have recommended the books that I did. When you read through them you will notice that they are dedicated to showing how cultures across the planet used solar, stellar, and lunar movement to plan ceremonies, agricultural events, and civic duties. The point that all three authors make is that there are astronomical universals and relative cultural interpretations. While winter solstice may be more important to one culture summer solstice is more important to the other (this has a lot to do with latitude, as different latitudes experience the seasons differently). While one culture may consider the natural motion of the heavens to be clockwise (based on the high-point of the sun) another considers it to be counter clockwise (based on the rotation of the sun around the celestial pole).This happens even for two cultures in the same hemisphere, thus, both left to right and right to left writing systems developed in the northern hemisphere. Both these cultures will argue that their writing systems (and movement in ritual) reflects the natural order of the cosmos, and both cultures are right.

I do suggest that you read through these books, you will find a wealth of information. These authors are archaeoastronomers- meaning they have dedicated their lives to studying astronomy and how past peoples incorporated astronomy to bring order to the chaotic patterns of nature...its a fascinating field!

If you want to continue this debate, I suggest you start another thread- as we have moved away from the LBRP.