Hello, Anybody Know Anything About This? Options

Hello everyone!

I'm Jenny, and I'm transsexual. In other words, I'm a girl stuck in a guy's body. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/weeping.gif) I've been looking on the net for about a year and a half for some way to fix the issue of me being transsexual i.e., ....turn myself into a girl. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wish.gif)

So, my uestion is, has anybody here ever heard of someone changing into a member of the opposite sex because of/with magic? Has anyone heard of any methods? Anyone have any ideas where I could look? *besides Occultforums.com, there was a HUGE thread on the subject there before some hacker destroyed everything..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tickedoff.gif) * Any ideas, please let me know.

Oh, and yes, I already know about estrogen, but at my age I would have to go thru my mom to get it, and besides her not being keen on the idea at all, I don't know if I could get it prescribed...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

So, anyway, any input on the subject would be greatly appreciated! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks a bunch,
Jenny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

P.S. Sorry if it sounds like I'm spell begging.....

This post has been edited by polite.heretic: Jan 1 2007, 10:18 PM

Or is it that you have some mental probs? May be you lack some hormones giving you a feminine touch... But now saying you are a gurl in a boy body... That sounds like a visit to some psy ;-)... Get that cured quick dude... LOL... or may be you are gay and but not really a gurl as such... You gettting my point... You still a kid so be cautious of what you want...



;-)

Well I thought we had a thread on gender change and magick. But I guess that might have been another forum.

Jenny I have a few honest questions for you:
1. When did you first start to believe you were a girl in a male's body?

2. Why do you/what makes you think you are a transexual?

3. What's your real name? (your first name only please)
I'm not trying to pick on you nor do I doubt that you believe you are a girl trapped in a male body. I am asking only because I wish to understand whats going on in your mind. If I know that I can help advise you better.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 2 2007, 06:01 PM

Hello, Acid09!
Thank you for stating that you're not trying to pick on me, and also for asking me questions instead of asking if I was sure, and if I didn't think maybe it was actually this, or that, sorta like what the poster before you did.....I know he didn't mean to be hurtful, but he sorta annoyed me....anyhoo. Answers to your questions.

For as long as I can remember, I've known that there was something wrong with me. In elementary school, I had more friends who were girls then that were guys. I don't know if that means anything, though, I don't remember me being really femenine back then (I never have been, not now even, cuz I'm still in the closet)....

Ever since I started school, since I was about 7, I've always been interested in the occult. By about 3rd grade I'd read all the superstition books and such in the library. And there was one bok in particular that really caught my attention, I remember. It was a book of superstitions, and one of them was, that if you kissed your elbow, you'd change sex.

When I got the first three Harry Potter books (I must've been about 8 or 9), I remember reading the second one, Chamber of Secrets. And the concept of Polyjuice potion really interested me. I thought, I want some of that. I remember daydreaming that if I was Harry, I'd get one of Hermione's hairs and make some of that potion......

Since about age 7 or 8, I've wanted to be a girl. It always bothered me that I couldn't be, but it wasn't really a major part of my life. I never told anyone, cuz I didn't figure it mattered, I thought, why should I tell anyone about that, they'd put me in the loony bin.
It didn't really bother me that much, I just kept living. I didn't really act femenine.

I remember that thru much of elementary school, I was always sad. Of course, I wasn't really that well liked in elementary school, i mean, i was teased, but I had friends. Even when things were great, I would sometimes just start crying and I wouldn't know why. It took me a while to figure out what it was that was wrong with me, to connect the fact that I wanted to be a girl to the fact that I was sad most of the time.

Around 12 or 13 the want to be a girl became more urgent and defined. I remember that it was what I wished for when I blew out the candles on my cake the day of my 13th birthday.

Soon after I read that one book, I realised that I couldn't kiss my elbow. Der-der. So I went on to researching different methods of making a wish. I must've tried them all. None worked, obviously. So I gave up. The idea of using magic towards my particular ends didn't pop up again until I was 13. But I didn't start trying to find something on the web until about a year and a half later.
And now I forgot what I was talking about (stupid sleep deprivation).

Any hoo, if you have anymore questions, or if I haven't made something clear enough, please feel free to pm me back!

Sincerely,
John [edited to protect personal identity]
a.k.a. Jennifer

I went ahead and posted your PM in this thread so other member's could add their imput as well. If you'd rather keep it private, pm me again and I'll delete this post. I'm also moving this thread to [edit]the coffee shop, I forgot that not having 30 posts means you can't view the member's lounge[/edit] because this sounds more like a personal issue than a noob asking questions about magick.

As far as the subject is conserned:
Why do you think you'd be happier if you were a girl instead of a guy?

For as long as I can remember, I've known that there was something wrong with me. In elementary school, I had more friends who were girls then that were guys.

Whats wrong is that you think there is something wrong with you. As you are, you are no more or less "wrong" then anybody else.
[edit]what I mean is feeling that you are a female in a male body is not wrong and you should not feel any shame for these beliefs[/edit]

When I was in grade school I had more female friends as well. I didn't act girly or anything either and I never wanted to be a girl because of it. That doesn't mean I never wondered what it would be like to have my own - well female body, thats actually pretty normal, especially at your age to think about.

When you think to yourself that you are a girl in a guy's body are you really thinking "I wish I were a girl", or "I wonder what it would be like"? Basically what I gesturing is the possibility that you are simply in a curious age and are confussing the curiosity to be female with transexuallity.

Ever since I started school, since I was about 7, I've always been interested in the occult. By about 3rd grade I'd read all the superstition books and such in the library. And there was one bok in particular that really caught my attention, I remember. It was a book of superstitions, and one of them was, that if you kissed your elbow, you'd change sex.

When I got the first three Harry Potter books (I must've been about 8 or 9), I remember reading the second one, Chamber of Secrets. And the concept of Polyjuice potion really interested me. I thought, I want some of that. I remember daydreaming that if I was Harry, I'd get one of Hermione's hairs and make some of that potion......

Magick works on a more subtle level. There is no way to "magically" alter your physical being into the opposite sex. Besides, pop culture is a piss poor source for real indepth occult mysticism. What happens in books or movies is not really what real magicians do. If you're looking for magick as a means to alter your gender you probably won't find it, at least not litterally.

Since about age 7 or 8, I've wanted to be a girl. It always bothered me that I couldn't be, but it wasn't really a major part of my life. I never told anyone, cuz I didn't figure it mattered, I thought, why should I tell anyone about that, they'd put me in the loony bin.
It didn't really bother me that much, I just kept living. I didn't really act femenine.

I remember that thru much of elementary school, I was always sad. Of course, I wasn't really that well liked in elementary school, i mean, i was teased, but I had friends. Even when things were great, I would sometimes just start crying and I wouldn't know why. It took me a while to figure out what it was that was wrong with me, to connect the fact that I wanted to be a girl to the fact that I was sad most of the time.

Why were you sad? Was it just because of the teasing? Or was there some trumatic period in your early life? What about siblings - did you have any older or younger sisters? The point of me asking these questions is to try and associate some event(s) that occured that were negative with your desire to be female.

Around 12 or 13 the want to be a girl became more urgent and defined. I remember that it was what I wished for when I blew out the candles on my cake the day of my 13th birthday.

Soon after I read that one book, I realised that I couldn't kiss my elbow. Der-der. So I went on to researching different methods of making a wish. I must've tried them all. None worked, obviously. So I gave up. The idea of using magic towards my particular ends didn't pop up again until I was 13. But I didn't start trying to find something on the web until about a year and a half later.
And now I forgot what I was talking about (stupid sleep deprivation).

Short of hormone thearopy and surgery there is no other way to change genders. And even if you did you would still be legally male, in some states at least.

I think you should spend some time getting to know your masculine side. You're only 16, 2 years shy of being 18. Once you're that age you can make the choice to switch genders. But you're young still and I think before you jump the gun on being female you should first at least try to enjoy being male. My point is if you really become female and later realize you missed out on being male, there's no growing a new penis. You'd be stuck that way for the rest of your life, a possible prision of sorts.

There are also certain biological realities to consider: Even if you got the gender change, surgically, you'd still be missing certain parts and you'd never be able to have kids of your own either. You'd, in a way, just be a mutilated male.

Maybe spiritually you are female. But your biology has made you male. All I'm saying is that rather than spend so much time trying to turn yourself into a female, enjoy what you have now knowing that even if you did change that doesn't mean you'd be any happier. Then, if you still believe being female would make you happier, there will come a time when you will be at an age where you can make the legal choice to switch genders.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 3 2007, 07:40 PM

Um, she can't read this if it's in the member's lounge. She doesn't have thirty posts. Thereby, she can't tell you if she wants her PM taken down, because she can't read it - you're parading it for all to see.

Yes, she. I've been where she is right now, time and time again, and quite honestly, I've dealt enough with the skepticism and all that to know that if she wants what she wants, she'll eventually get there. It's not within our right to question another based on their beliefs.

I know you worded it nice, and forgive me for jumping the gun and being oversensitive here, but come on. She's heard it enough. I mean seriously. A good friend of mine was beaten nearly to death for being gay. Yeah, gay. He was holding his girlfriend's purse! And for that he was in a coma for a week and a half.

Acid09: You were analytical, thoughtful, and I respect that. However, I don't think that analyzing something that she's already thinking about or thought over, and I can guarantee she has, is going to help. She's seeking an outlet to illicit change in herself, and that's not wrong by any stretch of the imagination. And some of us, imagine that, just plain don't WANT kids. Bad enough to listen to kids screaming than to actually have one. It's basically a bad dog for the first three, four years of life. Puking and defecating everywhere. Nasty.

Mystick: Please, man please. Refrain from calling transgenderism a mental disorder. That's like saying that all left handed people are psychopaths and pedophiles.

And I've spoken my peace about it. Peace to you all.

This post has been edited by Isaiah: Jan 2 2007, 09:46 PM

Well i might have seemed harsh, but sometimes for the Good of someone, one need to be harsh especially when it can be for the good of someone much younger...



You have been stuffing yourself for so many years for that but you even aint show any valid stuff to support your claim.. those things you related are small things that might come as puberty disorders that happen dude....

Dont you like being a man ;-) Its kool ... Well seriously speaking, even if you reach 18, i wont advise you to have a decision on whether to change gender... BE CAUTIOUS THAT MOST OF YOUR BODY WILL BE MALE and its only the hormones that when taken will give you the femine touch ;-) the parts you would remove and other add does have certain problem areas that you need to be aware of.... there might be serious complications dude.. You have a healthy body, do dont try ruin it for childhood fancies...Also i really think even at 18 you wont be able to have a truthful decision.. you have put the gender change stuff in your mind for so long that i guess one year wont be enough to give you an unbiased decision.



Try havin a gurlfrnd and tell her to make you realise how good you can be being a male ;-) you getting my point a bit...



well dude,

take care,

mystick

Why do you think you'd be happier if you were a girl instead of a guy?

Because that's who she is.

Whats wrong is that you think there is something wrong with you. As you are, you are no more or less "wrong" then anybody else.

You believe your'e male, she believes she's female, she's more open to her feminine side.

When I was in grade school I had more female friends as well. I didn't act girly or anything either and I never wanted to be a girl because of it. That doesn't mean I never wondered what it would be like to have my own - well female body, thats actually pretty normal, especially at your age to think about.

Transexualism, or a better word: " Transgenderism ", is inherently not a personality.

Why were you sad? Was it just because of the teasing? Or was there some trumatic period in your early life? What about siblings - did you have any older or younger sisters? The point of me asking these questions is to try and associate some event(s) that occured that were negative with your desire to be female.

Get a girl and tell her that she's a guy, attach mustache to her, cut her breasts off, tell her she can't fornicate with any males, belittle her for who she is, and ask her if she'll be happy.

You'd be stuck that way for the rest of your life, a possible prision of sorts.

Edit: Breaking out of jail.

There are also certain biological realities to consider: Even if you got the gender change, surgically, you'd still be missing certain parts and you'd never be able to have kids of your own either. You'd, in a way, just be a mutilated male.

Mutliated... hmm... you hate mutilations? I like 'em, maybe a new fashion?

Maybe spiritually you are female.

We are all spirituality androgynous, we have equally the male and female aspects of our souls.

But your biology has made you male. All I'm saying is that rather than spend so much time trying to turn yourself into a female, enjoy what you have now knowing that even if you did change that doesn't mean you'd be any happier.

Would you enjoy having a female's body and forcibly having to fornicate with males? Judging by your extreme straightfulness.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Jan 2 2007, 10:38 PM

Mystick: Please, man please. Refrain from calling transgenderism a mental disorder. That's like saying that all left handed people are psychopaths and pedophiles.

Nah transgenderism is not a natural stuff according to me compared to being left handed. I am left handed though... ;-)

May be mental disorder might not be the appropriate word but pardon my vocabulary and lack of words, i could not get a proper description of what i meant. I wanted to say its something not normal for the mind.. so now you getting my point ;-)





A lot wont even like it me saying the following but its a personal opinion, according to be even homosexuality is not normal. Nature has been about procreating to continue the cycle, homosexuality goes against nature... Well that is for another new thread i guess so i stop here. My personal opinion it is.

Nah transgenderism is not a natural stuff according to me compared to being left handed. I am left handed though... ;-)

May be mental disorder might not be the appropriate word but pardon my vocabulary and lack of words, i could not get a proper description of what i meant. I wanted to say its something not normal for the mind.. so now you getting my point ;-)





A lot wont even like it me saying the following but its a personal opinion, according to be even homosexuality is not normal. Nature has been about procreating to continue the cycle, homosexuality goes against nature... Well that is for another new thread i guess so i stop here. My personal opinion it is.

There are those who are slaves of the notion of "normality" (the archetype), and there are those free from the tethers of it.

...sometimes for the Good of someone, one need to be harsh especially when it can be for the good of someone much younger...

Consider this: She's doing this for her own good, and your arguing to the contrary harms the psyche of someone, especially younger, who has been told their entire life that it is simply wrong to be who they are.

You have been stuffing yourself for so many years for that but you even aint show any valid stuff to support your claim.. those things you related are small things that might come as puberty disorders that happen dude....

Again with the notion of disorders. You dismiss validity in favor of assuming you are correct, thereby anything she could have said would be lost on you, because it would be "invalid".

Well seriously speaking, even if you reach 18, i wont advise you to have a decision on whether to change gender... BE CAUTIOUS THAT MOST OF YOUR BODY WILL BE MALE and its only the hormones that when taken will give you the femine touch ;-) the parts you would remove and other add does have certain problem areas that you need to be aware of.... there might be serious complications dude..

Finally, you make sense. These are all true complications and everything contained in the above quote is true. There are risks, as with anything, but trust me when I say that if it would complete me and I would be a better man because of it, I would jump off of a mountain in a heartbeat. I would tear out my eye, or even, yes, remove my penis.

You have a healthy body, do dont try ruin it for childhood fancies...Also i really think even at 18 you wont be able to have a truthful decision.. you have put the gender change stuff in your mind for so long that i guess one year wont be enough to give you an unbiased decision.

Consider the following: Tortured, miserable, and healthy? Or complicated, happy, and absolutely at home? I would pick the latter, thank you very much. And I have to remark that no decision is unbiased, because they're all based on our opinions.

Try havin a gurlfrnd and tell her to make you realise how good you can be being a male ;-) you getting my point a bit...

I have to ask why this matters. Perhaps, you haven't gotten the point that, she wants to be female? Might not be attracted to women?

This post has been edited by Isaiah: Jan 2 2007, 10:10 PM

Well your points are not that much convincing dudes as you wont find my points convincing... May be with more time and spiritual understandin you would reason more on that or if i am wrong, then i would be more wise.

As for biased opinion it could be his own opinion that will give a biased decision. No all personal opinions are the right ones but at least when you later suffer, you know the reason for it...



Well i am not wise enough to talk on this matter more as i already expressed what i wanted.



Regards Mystick :-)

Actually, I'm content. All I wanted was for you to entertain the concept that you could be wrong. I already know in many areas I'm wrong, and I won't profess to being better, wiser, or more right than you. That would be pure foolishness.

Peace to you.

Transexualism

Transsexualism is thought to start at birth and most can tell you that their first concious thought was of being the wrong gender. TS children quickly learn that speaking or acting how they really feel will put them through violence and hatred, estrangement from a parents love and the taunts of all their peers. So most suffer in silence never growing up as themselves. This is a recognized medical condition not a life style choice.

Then Puberty strikes and the living nightmare begins. Body parts start growing and changing. MTF"s who feel like girls inside grow body hair, muscle mass and experience nocturnal erections and lower voices that they can't stop and it will haunt them forever. FTM's who feel like boys inside grow breasts and curves and start their first monthly reminders of their body's gender. Every period begins a new depression. Many Transsexual teens start cutting themselves or mutilating their genitals. Who do they tell? Who will listen to them? They are ALONE with their pain til they reach out and seek help.

Transgenderism

The word Transgender creates a lot of confusion, even among the Transgendered. That's because there is more than one meaning as well as old and new meanings. It is a word that is still evolving.

"Transgender is generally used as an overarching, general term for a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving full or partial tendencies towards that of the opposite gender.
A transgender symbol, a combination of the male and female sign with a third, combined arm representing transgender people.Transgender is the state of one's identity not matching one's assigned gender, which is usually based on physical/genetic sex. Transgender is inclusive of such diverse categories as transvestism, transsexualism, and any other traits and behaviours not typically associated with one's assigned gender". (Wikipedia)

These days Transgender refers to an all inclusive Umbrella term that includes Transvestites, Crossdressers, Androgyne's, Gender Benders, and Transsexual. Intersex people are sometimes included as well depending on who you talk to. Bear in mind that each of these individual terms have a wide encompassing spectrum of their own. Their are several different types of Crossdressers for example. Intersex though is a proven genetic physical condition. TG's are all about gender, not sexual orientation.

Transgender includes both (MTF) Male to Female and (FTM) Female to Male's. They are also sometimes referred to as Trans, or Tranny or trannies. Transgender is the correct term.

A transgenderist is a person who usually lives dresses and works in the role of the opposite Gender. Many will obtain hormones and facial and cosmetic surgeries but not gender Assignment surgery. They usually drive pleasure from their original genitals and wish to keep them.

The term "Shemale" was coined by the porn industry. While they are often billed as Transsexuals, most are not. There are however Transsexuals who do enter the porn industry intending to save money for SRS. These are not Transgenderists. Non-op Transsexuals who for financial or medical reasons cannot obtain the surgery are also not considered Transgenderists.

A crossdresser who grows breasts is a transgenderist not a crossdresser.

Male to Female Transgenderism

There is no bigger misunderstood group than the Male to Female Transsexual. People either see them as gay men making excuses to sleep with other men or sex objects with a little extra. The fact is nothing could be further from the truth. Transsexuals are People who were born with a female mind and soul and a male body that doesn't match. It is a birth defect, not a lifestyle choice. Below are links to help you explore Transexuality for mtf' transsexuals. The truth is on these pages. Nothing more. The word Transsexual is often mispelled as transexual. The scariest statistic is that pre-op Male to females have a suicide rate of 31% with 50% having had at least one suicide attempt by age 20. Post-op rates are below the national average.

Teens

Teenage years are a usually tough time for young adults even if they are psychologically healthy. A Transgendered Teen can go through sheer hell. Who do you turn to and who do you tell? Society as a whole is largely homophobic and this can include parents as well. TG Teens are subject to taunts, harrassment and ridicule. It is no wonder then that our most vulnerable group for suicide is Transgendered Teens. Many will at least have thoughts or actually attempt it. Others are involved in self cutting or body mutilation procedures.

One of the toughest delemna a teen faces is how to tell parents and friends and ask for help. Being a Transsexual Teen can be a very confusing and agonizing experience. Puberty can be a life altering horror story. At the very least they need to have their voices heard. After all this is not a whim. Many have felt this way their entire short lives. Despite all the camps that claim they can cure them in practice it does not work for more than a short while. Try to understand. This is not a lifestyle choice but a medical condition. It is not a religous matter but a physical, provable medical condition.. Treatment is available but not a cure. Therapy is the best and only answer. One only needs to look at the writings of our members to realize what happened to us in our teen years.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Jan 2 2007, 11:33 PM

Actually, I'm content. All I wanted was for you to entertain the concept that you could be wrong. I already know in many areas I'm wrong, and I won't profess to being better, wiser, or more right than you. That would be pure foolishness.

Peace to you.

Peace to you too. I wont reply to the thread but just to the quoted words. Its good that there are people who show me where they differ to my ways of thinking and its thus that i better try to analyse...

Its good you use more of common sense and intelligence rather than just doing a search on the internet and copy paste most of the content here. Some people here, mostly the armchair dudes only read any bullshit from any site they get or book and then just vomit the shit that gets formed into their mind pretending to know all and start giving advices thinking they are the only possessors of good knowledge..LOL ;-)



Well again for you its kool you use your common sense to reply :-) your posts are kool and i find that you are in a much better state than previously you were in the forums, so its a good thing :-)





Mystick

No offense meant, but Darkstalker has posted very pertinent information to the topic. I hardly think that a simple copy paste endeavor. Sometimes finding the information, posting it, and getting it out there is easier, plus it helps us form more of an informed opinion... After all, sometimes people know more than us, eh? Doctors do, for sure. See the above post on Transgenderism for more information on that point.

If that wasn't a direct attack on Darkstalker, then I apologize. But it got interpreted as such.

Peace to you too. I wont reply to the thread but just to the quoted words. Its good that there are people who show me where they differ to my ways of thinking and its thus that i better try to analyse...

Its good you use more of common sense and intelligence rather than just doing a search on the internet and copy paste most of the content here. Some people here, mostly the armchair dudes only read any bullshit from any site they get or book and then just vomit the shit that gets formed into their mind pretending to know all and start giving advices thinking they are the only possessors of good knowledge..LOL ;-)



Well again for you its kool you use your common sense to reply :-) your posts are kool and i find that you are in a much better state than previously you were in the forums, so its a good thing :-)





Mystick

Ignorance

Ignorance 1) is a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is also a "state of being ignorant" or unaware/uninformed. Ex: "In debate class Bill lost the debate because he was ignorant in (without knowledge of) that subject." In such a case the term is not pejorative, and may even be used as a self–descriptive term, as in "I am ignorant of (some subject or topic)". Ignorance can also be more than a lack of knowledge. It can include a deliberate intent to ignore knowledge or facts that conflict with what someone believes or wants to be true.

(pejorative definition) Ignorance 2) is the choice to not act or behave in accordance with regard to certain information in order to suit ones own needs/beliefs."I know better but I choose to ignore that and do/say/act in a way that behooves me."

In politics, it is almost always used as a pejorative label, but some political movements have raised it to an ideal, for instance some peasant and agrarian movements. This is usually simply a rejection of academia and professions and other power structures that assume they are intellectual superiors, that should be accorded deference by others.
Ebenezer Scrooge encounters "Ignorance" and "Want" in A Christmas Carol
Ebenezer Scrooge encounters "Ignorance" and "Want" in A Christmas Carol

In philosophy, the study of ignorance is paired with the study of knowledge, both of which are central to epistemology. Secular philosophies generally condemn ignorance as illustrated in the classic story, A Christmas Carol where the Ghost of Christmas Present reveals to Scrooge the childlike personifications of the major afflictions of the world, Want and Ignorance, and the fact that the latter is more harmful.

In ethics, some thinkers divide ignorance into two kinds: invincible ignorance and vincible ignorance. Invincible ignorance is such that a person can not remove it by diligence reasonable to the circumstance; a person who commits a wrong action does not incur guilt if invincibly ignorant that the act is wrong. Vincible ignorance could have been removed. It may mitigate guilt, but the less the more ignorance was voluntary.

Despite the popular phrase "ignorance is bliss" (coined by Thomas Gray in 1742), most religions are adamant that it does more harm than good. For instance, Islam views ignorance as a particular and unique evil that can and should easily be dispelled: "Seek knowledge, even as far as China." - Muhammad.

In a society with a strong hierarchy or caste system, ignorance of the concerns of those one does not work or deal with directly may aid labour specialization, reduce jealousy and dissent, and otherwise serve the interests of social harmony. In such a society, any mass media tends to be carefully controlled, and inquiry into forbidden knowledge tends to be punished severely.

When cultures meet, ignorance can become particularly dangerous, as one's inability to comprehend the customs of others can lead to offense and thus harm. When Europeans began colonization of North America, there were many incidents in which conflict arose from unintended misunderstandings. There were of course also many bona fide clashes of values and bigotry - a byproduct of ignorance being racism and intolerance.

What is different is by and large seen as dangerous and threatening in animal cognition.

In humans, ignorance of another's lifeways or circumstances, failure to empathize with his or her experience, is cited in political science as one of the most common causes of conflict. Thus to build common experiences, e.g. to plant olive trees in regions where they have been torn up due to conflict, and learn at the same time, is thought to be one of the most effective forms of education and also of peacemaking. Crick's political virtues emphasize this kind of skill and activity where it is difficult or impossible to actually share perspectives.

Ignorance is often misinterpreted as a synonym of Stupidity, and is as thus often taken as an insult, when really it is, in its correct form, not an insult at all but more of a criticism. Hence the derogatory aphorism "You can fix ignorance but you can't fix stupid."

For instance, saying, "I'm not ignorant, i just don't know things," is a prime example of ignorance.

-Wikipedia

I know you worded it nice, and forgive me for jumping the gun and being oversensitive here, but come on. She's heard it enough. I mean seriously. A good friend of mine was beaten nearly to death for being gay. Yeah, gay. He was holding his girlfriend's purse! And for that he was in a coma for a week and a half.

This is not a bash against transexuals or trangenders(ed?). I'm sorry for your friend but gays have nothing to do with the topic.

Jenny came onto this forum asking for answers to reach a specific goal through magickal means.

In this case she asked for a magickal approach to permanenlty switch genders. In order for me, as an occultist, to make a rational and ethical answer for her I must analyze her. If I am to help her in any capacity I need to understand if she is seriously convienced or just confussed. I would not want to contribute to a person's delusions or self destruction.

Acid09: You were analytical, thoughtful, and I respect that. However, I don't think that analyzing something that she's already thinking about or thought over, and I can guarantee she has, is going to help. She's seeking an outlet to illicit change in herself, and that's not wrong by any stretch of the imagination. And some of us, imagine that, just plain don't WANT kids. Bad enough to listen to kids screaming than to actually have one. It's basically a bad dog for the first three, four years of life. Puking and defecating everywhere. Nasty.

She's legally and biologically a 16 year old male. If I were her I'd at least try to consider all possibilities including that she is still very young and should take the time to enjoy what she has now rather than permanently alter herself and possibly regret it later.

Mystic might come across as harsh but I think Jenny should consider what he is saying *AND NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY!! WE"RE STILL ONLY ON AN ONLINE FORUM.

Mystick: Please, man please. Refrain from calling transgenderism a mental disorder. That's like saying that all left handed people are psychopaths and pedophiles.

In my latest psych class we had a section on "disorders" related transvestism and transexuallity. There are two schools of thought - one views it as a disorder, a kind of psycho-biological annomily and the other views it as a mental illness. One can live a productive life with a disorder. If they have a mental illness the odds they will have productive, "normal" lives are very low. Some states require that people with mental illness get the treatment neccessary to "correct" the ailment.

Please keep in mind a disorder is not the same as a mental illness. We all have disorders of one kind or another. What they do is serve to satsify some personal need. Disorders can lead to a mental illness and mental illness can be caused by a disorder. Thus a person with a disorder needs to fullfill their desire (in a healthy way) to be healthy because repressing it or expressing it in bad ways can lead to mental illness. Of course there are some disorders that should be treated like an illness- manic depression, panic attacks, OCD, ADD etc. However one should be very careful about judging if another has a disorder, an illness or maybe they're just confused. What I am trying to do is identify which jenny is so that I may give the best answer I can to her original question.

Why do you think you'd be happier if you were a girl instead of a guy?

Deathstalker are you Jenny? Its cool that you're standing up for your beliefs but I'd appritiate that you let her answer the questions for herself. I don't want you to put words into her mouth. Let her answer my questions. My goal is remain ever my self and take a critically analytical and psychological point of view of the topic. Again this is not a bash of any kind. And I know she already knows the answers but I want to hear what she has to say so I can determine an appropriate response.

Transexualism, or a better word: " Transgenderism ", is inherently not a personality.

Semantics. Jenny used transexual herself. Who cares if she uses one over the other so long as we understand the nature of the topic?

Jenny is a 16 year old boy who believes she should actually be a girl.

No offense meant, but Darkstalker has posted very pertinent information to the topic. I hardly think that a simple copy paste endeavor. Sometimes finding the information, posting it, and getting it out there is easier, plus it helps us form more of an informed opinion... After all, sometimes people know more than us, eh? Doctors do, for sure. See the above post on Transgenderism for more information on that point.

Deathstalker is arguing in defense of Jenny. He is defending his beliefs about this topic, which is admriable - but not on topic.

Deathstalker -please try to stay on topic or create your own in fight club.

The topic is:
John, aka Jenny, is a 16 year old girl who has a male body. She is seeking advice and information on how to become a girl.

So rather than debate transexuallity or transgenderism lets give Jenny some real advice.

Mine, thus far, is that Jenny is still very young and has lots of time for her body to develope (the human body and mind doesn't stop developing until about the age of 25, so 9 years) and because of her age I think she should seek ways to find satisfaction as a male now and then alter her body later if she is still unhappy.

Jenny, you're still young and you can always undergo the treatment to change your gender when you are older. You can't change back though. So I hope that you will continue to explore the side of life being male now. If later in life you're still not happy you'll at least reduce the risk of regreting any permanent changes. The reason I reffered to a sex change as a possible prison of sorts is because you can't reverse it. As a male you have the choice (when you're older at least) to become female. You can't go back once you've done it though. And its a major choice to make.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 3 2007, 07:36 PM

Well, there are several misconceptions which still stand, here, and I'd like to point them out.

You argue that Darkstalker is using semantics as a basis for his beliefs, yet you do the very same thing with your notions of "disorder" versus "illness", both very much matters based on perception. You'll note that in the field of psychology several leading doctors have had very different opinions and results, and thereby their conclusions have been quite different. No doubt, many will tell you they are infallibly correct, as is the case with some of Jung's documents and Freud. We could argue over semantics all day long, but it would get us nowhere (i.e. Is the cat alive, or dead?). We must entertain the third option, as illustrated in my previous example, that we invariably do not know all things, and from a professional standpoint we would be wrong to assume anything until we know for a complete fact that it is this way or it is not this way. Again, my opinion, which may be correct or false, depending on your standpoint.

I'm not going to point fingers here, but at least one of the people involved in this discussion have already stepped down from their position, given it's more of a personal belief than sound advice, and to maintain that they are one and the same quite often has ramifications on your bias, your place in the discussion, and your conclusions. I have already congratulated that member, and I do appreciate that they have what it takes to realize the ineffable fact that not everyone is, in fact, correct 100% of the time.

And my advice is contrary to yours, but that does not make it immediately dismissible as unsound, or any less pertinent to the topic. It is "real advice", because it is advice that I suggest, from my lifetime here and my experiences, just as yours is "real advice" based on the same. My advice is this: What you believe, what you think, and what you are are very important to you. Follow your heart, your dreams. Chase the sun, kiss the sky, live your life how you want.

Acid does have some decent advice to give, though, and that is that this is a very serious matter, one not to go into without thinking it through. But, all that aside, do what you feel is right. That's my advice.

Edited my post because I realized the topic had been moved back.

This post has been edited by Isaiah: Jan 3 2007, 10:04 PM

Ok Jenny, I wont call you dude now, the other guys here are showing you 2 sides of the thing so that you can know what it is all about. Acid wants to help you by having a more detailed analysis of your mental situation which is a good thing and death stalker and isaiah are giving you support to choose your own "path".



Well I still hope you do find some light. Take care gurlie.

Hello everyone! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wiggle.gif)

I fully understand the seriousness of my situation, and the seriousness of jumping to conclusions and doing something I would regret for the rest of my life. But........
Ok, this is the arguement that's going on in my mind. Yes, I have doubts about this. I wonder if I really am transgendered. But then, I wonder if that doubt isn't some form of denial. And I realise that, say, if I got a prescription for hormones tomorrow, and started taking them, that I could be making a HUGE mistake, that I may just be really confused. I ask myself, if this is just something that I've clung onto, an identity that I've clung onto because any identity is better than none, why would I choose one that I know will give me a hard life? I mean, if it's just something like that, why didn't I cling onto an identity that was.....male? And then I think that I can't be 100% sure that I'm a girl stuck in a guy's body. But then, I think, I can't be 100% sure that this doubt is true either. *Is 2:15 am my time, I'm prolly rambling a bit, lol* Why do I think I'd be happier as a girl? Because my mind tells me I should be a girl physically. Because it hurts every day, looking in the mirror and seeing this male thing stare back at you.

The night I told my best friend Tim about me being a girl, he was a lot more ok with it than I'd thought he'd be. But he thought that I was just really confused. He said, "I bet that by the time you're 18 you'll realise you're a guy." And he asked me, what makes you think you're a girl? And I asked him, what makes you think you're a guy? Just because you have a male body?

I had a girlfriend. Her name is Nadia, and I had known for a while that she really liked me. And I came out to her. She was totally ok with it. A few weeks later, she asked me out. I said, ok. But you do realise that you're going out with a girl, right? And she said, "Oh, it doesn't matter, you're still a guy on the outside." I broke up with her after two days.

And I consider myself bisexual, although I will say that a person's sex drive suffers substantially when they're bummed out all the time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif) & such. My train of thought just derailed and ran over a herd of cows, so I'm going to end this particular post.

~ Jenny (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bounce.gif) *Is fully awake but not all here, but isn't logging off just because of a little insomnia*

Hehe, all this talk of snipping off particular body parts reminds me of Rabbi Tuckman and his guillotine circumsciser (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

This post has been edited by Mirima Coile: Jan 4 2007, 01:22 AM

NOTE: Please don't quote the entire previous response...it saves on espace - thanks - MODSQUAD!


Go with what you inherently believe as the real YOU.

To me, sexual preference is only a barrier formed by the tethers our physic and the mileua (or our surroundings) have on us, to break it and see "outside the box" is to be denounced, defiled, spat on, and in most cases dis-owned by society, bummer.

And I proudly present to you a pansexual (yes I am), I like men, women, animals, spirits, we are all beautiful to my eyes; now this may subconsciously distance many of my so-called admirers or "friends" on this forum, but hell with that, I rather have someone like you as a friend.

Peace be on to thee (Mystic likes my middle english so ima use some of that).

Later lady, and I hope you check your pm ;P

This post has been edited by bym: Jan 5 2007, 07:47 AM

You have my support as a very openly bisexual male. Be proud of who you are.

Ok, this is the arguement that's going on in my mind. Yes, I have doubts about this. I wonder if I really am transgendered. But then, I wonder if that doubt isn't some form of denial. And I realise that, say, if I got a prescription for hormones tomorrow, and started taking them, that I could be making a HUGE mistake, that I may just be really confused.

I'm not a doctor but I'd highly recomend that you do not undergo any hormone thearopy until you are at least 20. Not just because I think you need time to figure yourself out but because your body is still developing on its own natural course and introducing hormones now could cause a lot problems.

I ask myself, if this is just something that I've clung onto, an identity that I've clung onto because any identity is better than none, why would I choose one that I know will give me a hard life? I mean, if it's just something like that, why didn't I cling onto an identity that was.....male? And then I think that I can't be 100% sure that I'm a girl stuck in a guy's body. But then, I think, I can't be 100% sure that this doubt is true either.

You haven't started growing breast on your own have you? You're not a hermaphrodite right? Physically speaking you're 100% male. Mentally, however, thats where the conflict of identity is comming from. Mentally you may or may not be a girl piloting a male body. How can we know this? How can anybody decide the gender of one's soul? Some say follow what your heart tells you. Novel advice, but my problem with following my heart is that it only feels, it don't directly speak english to me. In dealing with this conflict of personal identity I think you should seek advice from a councilor. Don't jump my case about this suggestion I don't think you're insane and besides we all have points in our lives where a councilor would come in handy. I do think you need help sorting out the details of your issue. I will say that any councilor you choose should be somebody who is open minded enough to at least accept the possibility that you may really be a girl. Don't seek counciling from anybody who'd just try to make you conform with your biology - nor the opposite either.

*Is 2:15 am my time, I'm prolly rambling a bit, lol*

Rambling is a sign that you may have a slot of stuff to vent - more reason to seek counciling.

Why do I think I'd be happier as a girl? Because my mind tells me I should be a girl physically. Because it hurts every day, looking in the mirror and seeing this male thing stare back at you.

I'm still curious about why you seem to have such a negative self image. That male thing staring back at you is how your mom and dad's DNA made you turn out -its you in this life time. There's nothing wrong about that. Again your statement further suggests to me that you should seek advice from a professional - your negative self image may be caused by depression or anxiety (or both), not your gender. The point is I think you need assistance in sorting out what you're going through right now. Once you've dealt with these feelings I think you'll be much more certain weather or not you are a male or female.

The night I told my best friend Tim about me being a girl, he was a lot more ok with it than I'd thought he'd be. But he thought that I was just really confused. He said, "I bet that by the time you're 18 you'll realise you're a guy."

Maybe he's right, which is another reason why I think you should wait until you're older before you make any radical changes to yourself.

And he asked me, what makes you think you're a girl? And I asked him, what makes you think you're a guy? Just because you have a male body?

Well actually there is some psychology to gender identity. Sometimes when babies are born doctors mis-identitify the gender - a large clitorus sometimes makes the baby designated as a boy and a small penis makes the baby a girl. The parents, having no reason to question the doctor then proceed to raise their kid as a girl or boy when they're actually the opposite. There have even been a few cases where the parents raised their kids into adolesants as though they were the gender they really weren't. Because of this psychologist have learned that some of these babies develope believing they are the opposite sex - they play with male or female toys, they wear gender associated clothes, their rooms are dolled up appropriately, their parents talk to them as though they were a girl or boy and introduce them to others like wise. And growing up like this to then suddenly realize that you're really the opposite sex can have profound affects.

You seem to be the opposite - it is possible instead of having your gender mis-identified your body didn't develope the same gender as your mind did. maybe your DNA didn' recognize the gender of your soul? Who knows.

I had a girlfriend. Her name is Nadia, and I had known for a while that she really liked me. And I came out to her. She was totally ok with it. A few weeks later, she asked me out. I said, ok. But you do realise that you're going out with a girl, right? And she said, "Oh, it doesn't matter, you're still a guy on the outside." I broke up with her after two days.

You seem to be in a really conflicted point in your life. While relationships with the opposite sex are healthy, I think it would be hard for your to really have a long lasting and loving relationship with a heterosexual girl if you are transforming your body into a that of a female. In my humble opinion I think you should exploit your God given "fruits" with the opposite sex -safely of course, if you haven't already - before you transform yourself. This way you'll at least know to the full extent what it was like to be male. I think it will help you truely decide what you believe about yourself.

Hehe, all this talk of snipping off particular body parts reminds me of Rabbi Tuckman and his guillotine circumsciser

lol yeah it does

This post has been edited by Acid09: Jan 4 2007, 06:04 PM

Hello! Quote time, lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yu.gif)

I'm still curious about why you seem to have such a negative self image. That male thing staring back at you is how your mom and dad's DNA made you turn out -its you in this life time. There's nothing wrong about that. Again your statement further suggests to me that you should seek advice from a professional - your negative self image may be caused by depression or anxiety (or both), not your gender. The point is I think you need assistance in sorting out what you're going through right now. Once you've dealt with these feelings I think you'll be much more certain weather or not you are a male or female.

I am depressed. I'm currently on two anti-depressants (IMG:style_emoticons/default/33.gif) (Lexapro & Wellbutrin), and I see a councelor every other Monday. The only reason I have such a negative self image about my body is because of this gender identity issue. Half the girls in my band class are ga-ga for me, lol. I think that as a man, I don't look half bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I'm skinny, not very muscular, I don't do any sports, but I don't think of myself as looking horrible as a guy. I just don't want to look "handsome".

In dealing with this conflict of personal identity I think you should seek advice from a councilor. Don't jump my case about this suggestion I don't think you're insane and besides we all have points in our lives where a councilor would come in handy. I do think you need help sorting out the details of your issue. I will say that any councilor you choose should be somebody who is open minded enough to at least accept the possibility that you may really be a girl. Don't seek counciling from anybody who'd just try to make you conform with your biology - nor the opposite either.

I do really want to talk to a councelor; particularly one that deals with gender identity problems. Lol, I know you're not calling me insane (Although I will be if I don't get to talk to a specialist about this whole thing soon). And I agree, that I will have to be careful to get a councelor that's non-judgemental, who won't push me either way.

You seem to be in a really conflicted point in your life.

Yup. I've sort of come to a point where I think, well, if I can't be sure about this, how can I be 100% sure of anything else about me? Prolly a lot of that is just me being a teenager, but having arguements with yourself about if what you feel about yourself is true, all of the circular thinking, oy...! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/face06.gif)

In my humble opinion I think you should exploit your God given "fruits" with the opposite sex -safely of course, if you haven't already - before you transform yourself. This way you'll at least know to the full extent what it was like to be male. I think it will help you truely decide what you believe about yourself.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/spoton.gif) I'm totally for that! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif)
I might feel a little guilty if I was only doing it to help figure something out about myself though, like I was using her (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ....I don't know. But no, I do want to do that before I transition.

My mom thinks that I think I think I'm a girl because I feel that I have shortcomings as a guy, that I don't think I'm a good enough man, so I should be a girl. She thinks it's just a phase. Which it may be. But I don't think of myself as a girl because of any imagined 'shortcomings' as a man. I think of myself as a woman because I feel like one.

Something that Mystick said early in thisa post is that I might have a hormone inbalance. If I do, do I have the transgender feelings because of the inbalance, or the inbalance because of the transgender feelings? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

Another thing that floats around in my head is, what if I'm using the excuse that I'm transgendered to explain why I want to be a girl? I don't think that I am, but I can't really be totally certain that I'm not. I really am my worst enemy when it comes to arguing logically with myself.

And what if I never get this figured out? What if I'm 50 and I still haven't figured this out yet? I'm so scared. Because of this doubt, this doubt makes me so uneasy.....and because of what I'll have to go thru for the rest of my life if what I feel about myself is indeed true. I don't know. Sometimes I think I think too much...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) ~ Jenny *Has a headache and the wind outside is blowing like crazy and I wish I had more chicken fried rice*

I'm not a doctor but I'd highly recomend that you do not undergo any hormone thearopy until you are at least 20. Not just because I think you need time to figure yourself out but because your body is still developing on its own natural course and introducing hormones now could cause a lot problems.

You haven't started growing breast on your own have you? You're not a hermaphrodite right? Physically speaking you're 100% male. Mentally, however, thats where the conflict of identity is comming from. Mentally you may or may not be a girl piloting a male body. How can we know this? How can anybody decide the gender of one's soul? Some say follow what your heart tells you. Novel advice, but my problem with following my heart is that it only feels, it don't directly speak english to me. In dealing with this conflict of personal identity I think you should seek advice from a councilor. Don't jump my case about this suggestion I don't think you're insane and besides we all have points in our lives where a councilor would come in handy. I do think you need help sorting out the details of your issue. I will say that any councilor you choose should be somebody who is open minded enough to at least accept the possibility that you may really be a girl. Don't seek counciling from anybody who'd just try to make you conform with your biology - nor the opposite either.

Rambling is a sign that you may have a slot of stuff to vent - more reason to seek counciling.

I'm still curious about why you seem to have such a negative self image. That male thing staring back at you is how your mom and dad's DNA made you turn out -its you in this life time. There's nothing wrong about that. Again your statement further suggests to me that you should seek advice from a professional - your negative self image may be caused by depression or anxiety (or both), not your gender. The point is I think you need assistance in sorting out what you're going through right now. Once you've dealt with these feelings I think you'll be much more certain weather or not you are a male or female.

Maybe he's right, which is another reason why I think you should wait until you're older before you make any radical changes to yourself.

Well actually there is some psychology to gender identity. Sometimes when babies are born doctors mis-identitify the gender - a large clitorus sometimes makes the baby designated as a boy and a small penis makes the baby a girl. The parents, having no reason to question the doctor then proceed to raise their kid as a girl or boy when they're actually the opposite. There have even been a few cases where the parents raised their kids into adolesants as though they were the gender they really weren't. Because of this psychologist have learned that some of these babies develope believing they are the opposite sex - they play with male or female toys, they wear gender associated clothes, their rooms are dolled up appropriately, their parents talk to them as though they were a girl or boy and introduce them to others like wise. And growing up like this to then suddenly realize that you're really the opposite sex can have profound affects.

You seem to be the opposite - it is possible instead of having your gender mis-identified your body didn't develope the same gender as your mind did. maybe your DNA didn' recognize the gender of your soul? Who knows.

You seem to be in a really conflicted point in your life. While relationships with the opposite sex are healthy, I think it would be hard for your to really have a long lasting and loving relationship with a heterosexual girl if you are transforming your body into a that of a female. In my humble opinion I think you should exploit your God given "fruits" with the opposite sex -safely of course, if you haven't already - before you transform yourself. This way you'll at least know to the full extent what it was like to be male. I think it will help you truely decide what you believe about yourself.

lol yeah it does

I am understanding what Acid09 is alluding to now, and I cannot say that I can refute his logical and essential "worries" if you want to call it. He has been reiterating the possibilities of such permanent changes as to give essential warnings for what possibilites await.

Though I was fervently trying to refute the claims with what seemed lack of understanding, they were merely emotional bounderies I had, and typical worries - as transexualism is oft misunderstood and not so much an illustrious topic.

Acid is trying to say that it is imprudent to make a choice by enslavement of your emotional desires, which, do have the possibilities of being induced due to depressing teen years. 16 is the age of major change, and it wreaks hectic emotions and desires which oft do blurr the perception the mind has over the body's needs for growth, and the mind's decisions for the future to come. Especially in his last post, Acid made clear that it's rather essential to go about with your penchant "needs" for survival at this stage of your life, and let time attest to what is thus needed, or in this case, wanted from your psyche and emotional well-being.

Hence, Acid made a very unbiased and logical post which is not to be disregarded; transexual, pansexual, or straight, the human pscyhe is but the same. Such things have to be elaberated keenly prior to the making of any regretful decisions. As I saw in your later posts, you seemed certain that you wanted the change, but I deem it rather a cessation of personal growth for your inchoate age. Take mine, and acid's posts as didactic and "optional" for your endeavers and personal choices which are to ensue, but remember, 16,17,18,19... not too many years. With patience come great virtues, remember that, as much as I'd like to bash against Acid in spite of proving my self-centered emotions right, I'll have to agree that such impedements to growth aren't to be taken vicarious for emotions of the present.

Anyways, this concludes my posting for now, and my appologies if anyone felt victim of personal attacks - not the case.

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Jan 5 2007, 07:45 AM

I am depressed. I'm currently on two anti-depressants (Lexapro & Wellbutrin), and I see a councelor every other Monday.

Thats hardcore stuff and taken together? Well I assume the lexapro is for anxiety (possibly caused by you level of inner conflict) and the welbutrin is for the depression (which probably results from a variety of factors -ie your body's developement and the after math of your inner conflict).

When the mind is suffering from such complex internal debates - in your case your gender identity - it causes a reaction in your body. Your chemicals get out of balance. Your issues cause fear and worry - you might think things like 'something's wrong with me, I don't know about the future, what will other people think, what if...(insert what you like)'?

The fear and worry tax your body of it's saratonine resulting in anxiety (in some people this can cause panic attacks). The result of this is not enough, or too much in some cases, saratonine. This causes you to become depressed, and more so than you would normally because of your age. You suffer the affects of depression and it causes more negative thinking - I'm not good enough, I can't accomplish anything, people are out to get me - any number of other thoughts. Then there are the physiological side affects as well - the anxiety may cause periods of agitation, panic attacks, restlessness and so on. The depression causes periods of anger, saddness, lethargy, even neusea.

It all feeds a cycle - your thinking causes fear and worry, which causes the accelerated depression. The physical affects only further the complex because you realize something IS wrong with you and it triggers the negative thinking all over again.

Taken all of this together I think its safe to say that your problem with your gender identity is actually a result of other underlying issues. We don't need to get into those and it would be off topic to do so. The point I'm making is that you seem so overwhelmed right now that I don't think you are certain one way or the other that you are indeed a girl. Thus to make the choice to take hormone thearopy at this stage would only further upset your state of being.

I'm not saying you're not a girl. I'm saying you need time to figure it all out. And right now I think you should at least try to accept the possibility that you are facing several other issues and your gender issue is just the one on top of the pile right now. It is also possible that your gender issue is not because you really are a girl, you're just suffering from several other factors that make you think you are a girl. As you sort all of this out and get older, your mind will settle from this inner turmoil and then you will have the mental focus to really challenge your gender.

The only reason I have such a negative self image about my body is because of this gender identity issue. Half the girls in my band class are ga-ga for me, lol. I think that as a man, I don't look half bad. I'm skinny, not very muscular, I don't do any sports, but I don't think of myself as looking horrible as a guy. I just don't want to look "handsome".

Being handsome to you may set expectations - the handsome people are popular, popular people have to act a certain way. This can lead to the negative thinking which causes all the other symptoms. The " I just don't want to look handsome" bit tells me that this is an example of other issues clouding your mind.

I might feel a little guilty if I was only doing it to help figure something out about myself though, like I was using her ....I don't know. But no, I do want to do that before I transition.

Do it to enjoy it - just be responsible about it. You seem intelligent enough to know what I mean.

Yup. I've sort of come to a point where I think, well, if I can't be sure about this, how can I be 100% sure of anything else about me? Prolly a lot of that is just me being a teenager, but having arguements with yourself about if what you feel about yourself is true, all of the circular thinking, oy...!

I would ask your councelor about this before you try it, but maybe what would help you out is some roleplaying. Roleplaying can be healthy as long as one is able to keep it in their head that thats all it is. In this case maybe try cross dressing. Hell maybe next halloween really make an impression and go out as a girl (maybe even a girl vampire or something). - Just remember its only roleplaying, biologically you are still male. What really matters is that you look yourself in the mirror - both as a male and as a female.

At first, spend time doing this privately because you might stir up unwanted negative attention that would only make matters worse - with the exception being Halloween. The purpose of such an excercise is to help you decide which makes you feel the best. And what I mean is that you are able to stare yourself in the mirror and confidently say; yep this way feels the most right.

Once you are older and graduated, when the chances for negative attention are low, then go out in public and act like a girl. Ideally you'd look feminine enough that few would recognize you. Experience life as a cross dresser and see what it does for you. If you suddenly realize walking in high heels isn't for you, you can just change your clothes. This way there is no permanent change. And this would also help you figure out who you really are. Once you're confident enough then its time to see who your family and friends will react - keep in mind that what ever you choose to do to yourself you should keep your family's emotions in mind as well.

Another thing that floats around in my head is, what if I'm using the excuse that I'm transgendered to explain why I want to be a girl? I don't think that I am, but I can't really be totally certain that I'm not. I really am my worst enemy when it comes to arguing logically with myself.

I think you should really consider the realities of the situation - not just the 'why am I' but the end results.

On one hand you have the male you, John.

Pros - I take it you have the correct anatomical equipment and appearance. John is a relatively handsome male, who aside from some temporary mental problems is totally healthy and popular amungst his peers. John is you as your DNA has made you to be.

Cons - John is depressed and probably suffers from anxiety as well. These may be the result of other issues that need to be dealt with seperately. John has a conflict of personal identity and believes that in the greater scheme of things he got cheated out of his true gender and was made male instead of female. John is not happy.

So lets consider the other side:

Jenny is you as a girl.
Pros - Jenny looks and acts like a girl. She's probably attractive and confident (at least in your eyes). It is an identity that you believe would allow you to acomplish the most out life and create the most happiness. Being female is not having the prior limmitations of being male. You would not have to contend with your masculine issues.

Cons - Jenny does not have the biology of a female. She would have to undergo special treatment to have her male body transformed into the *likeness* of a woman. This alone could cause nasty side affects. Jenny will never have her own birth canal, or overies. The bone structure of your jaw and hips will remain that of a man. You'd have to take hormone suppliments for the rest of your life to prevent your voice from deepening or your breast from dissappearing. The innitial surgury will transform your genitles into the likeness of a vagina - but it would not function the same way. You won't be able to produce your own lubricant or enjoy an orgasm in the likeness of a real woman either. If your real identity were known by others you'd risk being misjudged - people may not want to hire you or be in a relationship with you. Society would reject you. This may not really matter to you, but your family (even just specific members) may dis-own you.

Family - when considering all this don't just think about what you want, but what those who love you want as well.

Now these are only my observations and meant only to serve as an example. You should take this model and add your own pros and cons to both sides. The purpose of this is to help your mind rationally consider the results of the options.

Finally, Jenny you know what you want and you should be allowed to achieve all of it. However, not at the expense of those who love you as you are. If changing your gender would alienate you from your family, or friends, possibly leaving them emotionally scared, I cannot concieve how you would be any happier in life.

Ok this is my opinion on the situation. Jenny is somehow trapped in John's body. For what reason I do not know. But it seems to me that Jenny thinks that she is stuck here. To really help her we need a way to free her. She needs to want to "open" herself see thats it ok. Thats based on John wants to come back, but he may not want to. I have no idea how deep this goes , and i may be completely wrong about this. I'm just wondering if to much damage has be done already?