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Hi,
i'm new here and i have wanted to post but it takes forever to be included in the system. at any rate - i have done some invocation/evocation (i'm new still haven't worked out the difference) and this was all done about a year - yr and a half ago. i called a variety of spirits from the goetia because my visualization skills are next to nothing (i was desperate for help at the time so didn't stop to consider these shortcomings in my work) but was surprisingly successful for one so new - maybe it was the smell of a newbie that drew such success at any rate i don't feel that i would want to continue with any workings with the goetia. i am disinclined to the use of the system because i feel that slavery whether it be a spirit or another human is wrong. At any rate, my goal at the time at the evocations was not to exert control but solicit aid. in my negotians however - i know that i was lacking - but by the same token i would not take the time to ask questions here if i did not feel that such questions were warranted. Forgive me if i seem to be rambling a bit - but you must understand the circumstances from which i am posting in order to be able to answer the questions that follow. i read on here that some of you more seasoned practitioners have not had any spirits manifest themselves through the smoke of the incense that you burned - i have. possibly for the simple reason that my visualization skills are lacking - but perhaps there are other reasons that i could only fathom to guess? any ideas as to why they would choose to show themselves to an inherent newbie such as myself would be very interesting to know. the second thing is that one of the spirits that i called also manifested by voice... now he has since made his presence known - in fact more recently - but i am curious as to why he would choose to make his presence known after so long - and especially assuming that he was disinclined to give me a straight answer when i made my request. another thing that is very puzzling to me is that last night another spirit that i had called upon (but had forgotten about until last night) chose to make his presence known and now i'm not sure of his intent. have any of you encountered something similar to this? i'm sure that most of you weren't as new to this when you first started as i was - nor does it seem that you would undertake an endeaver which you don't fully understand. mine was simply an act of desperation in a private matter which has yet to be resolved - yet seems like it could swing one way or the other as far as those called upon to help me. tho i have been told that if it's been a while (like a yr) they're answer was more likely to be negative. Anyone with further information regarding this - or even willing to wage a guess would be most appreciated.
thanks
Sera

the voice i heard was auditory - scared the daylights out of me too! i wasn't expecting to hear anything let alone hear it with my ears. He only uttered one word "speak" that was it... nothing else - no greeting - nothing. it took me a full twenty to thirty minutes to get past the "Oh my God it worked!!!" stage to get to the point that i could actually ask what i wanted. now keep in mind this was a full two to three hours after i called him... whether or not he waited for that i don't know - then i wound up proceeding to ask him in telepathy instead of out loud - so i'm not sure he got the message that time tho i do believe that via other methods i got my request acrossed... it's a matter of whether or not he chose to answer or is choosing.. i have it on good faith that he at lest got it - as when he showed up he kinda demonstrated that - but he didn't give me an answer as to a yes or no to my request. i also have it on good faith that some of the spirits i was working with had a sense of humor as they kept making funny faces at me through the incense - i mentioned before that they used it to "solidify" their presence.. my suspicion is that it was due to my lack of visualization ability.. but that's only in theory - why if they can use the smoke to give them more of a presence - they don't with the seasoned practitioners is beyond me... i would think that they would use it more with them than with someone as inexperienced as me... at any rate - your thoughts on the matter are greatly appreciated and i hope to figure out what's going on from there...

I can only speak for myself here but your ideas and thoughts might be easier to digest if they were served up in paragraphs and better organized. You appear (to me) frenzied and confused. You have a lot to say which can be good when its done right but overwhelming when, say, you get a 50 line single paragraph of run-on sentences.

Your question about why so-called spirits would decide to manifest themselves to a "newbie" seems to be an obvious beg for "BECAUSE YOU'RE SPECIAL!" Well, if that's what you want to hear you're not going to get it from me. Spirits manifest themselves to children and anyone else who is earnest (even some who aren't (BOO!)) They can be fabricated from thin air, thick air, from dusty old grimoires, or from paperback novels.

It sounds like you have a lot of energy, I hope you channel it properly.

Good day!

forgive my writing style. i'm not stupid enough to think that i'm "special" in some manner shape or form. i just found the concept odd considering that i have read on here - that others more practiced have not had such things happen. i thought that either a) it could be due to a lack of visualization, b) it could be due to high energy, or a myriad of other equally valid reasons. i just wanted some input. if i wanted to hear that i was special in some way shape or form i would not have asked i would have simply stated and begun trumpeting. i am more puzzled than looking for an ego boost.


You wanted things broken down a bit more that's easy enough:

a) i want to know why spirits would manifest themselves in any kind of physical manifestation to a newbie (especially one who hasn't the foggiest as to what they're really doing)

b) i want to know if said manifestations are an indication that said spirit is more willing or inclined to do what is asked of them.

c) i want to know if after more than a yr if a spirit would decide to actually follow through or if after said passage of time they'd be more likely to have forgotten what was asked of them and have answered in the negative.

d) if it is common for a spirit to re-manifest when you haven't called it... and i think that's pretty much all i want to know at the moment.

i hope that no one else misjudges what i was asking for as an attempt to either brag or say that i am more than i am. not only am i a newbie (but plan to never become "experienced") but i'm also on unfamiliar ground when it comes to how spirits interact with those who call upon them or try to gain their attention.

Don't mean to be insulting, love. When you're judging replies keep in mind 99% of people into the occult are completely and ridiculously full of it. (I might be part of that 99% you never know.)

Good times.

Not a problem. i'm not generally egotistical - granted i do understand what you mean - i have noticed that some (most of the ones i have dealt with on a one on one basis - tho certainly not all) of those who use the goetia are rather egotistical. but i suppose that comes with the territory. i would imagine that one who controls the spirits would have a right of sorts to be able to claim whatever they wanted. i decided when i did my evocations to not even bother with the idea of controlling whatever spirits i was trying to evoke as i had read somewhere on this site that it was only an illusion of power anyway so there was really no point in my pretending.

on another note, are there any other reasons as to why they would have manifested themselves physically for me or do they just randomly do funny things? was it a lesser spirit using trickery or was it possibly the one i was actually conjuring?

another question that comes to mind as well - is you mentioned that i have a lot of energy - now as i mentioned i'm pretty new. i'm just beginning to work with magick and when i first did these evocations i had no clue what i was doing - so could you explain the energy thing to me? if you can raise a lot of energy what does that mean? another question is how do you channel that energy? i have a teacher right now who will be working with me on energy working - but so far the only thing i know about energy is something called a ley line and something to the effect that they're everywhere. sometimes i can "see" the energy as an example - in my coven they perform the lesser banishing ritual of the pentagram - when they do that i can sort of visualize it - but it's not as clear as i would like and it's rather intermittent... i can't do that with the ley lines as of yet - possibly because i don't even have a clue as to what a ley line might look like.

i am intersted in the healing arts - my grandma's friend Caroline uses energy for healing so that is my primary interest in energy work.

and while we're on the subject of questions - do you have any idea how to learn to visualize?

sera

Why ANYBODY would want to use the Lesser Key of Solomon for anything magickal other than a history lesson on the absurdity of 16th and 17th century occultism is completely beyond me. It seems useless and dangerous to play with such things when if you're interested in using spirits and angels you can invent your own that will be benevolent and beneficial. I have little respect for stale old magick paradigms -- they're usually boring, ineffective and seem to only have credence now BECAUSE they're old.

Invent your own spirits, entities, angels: use your imagination. Create your own ceremonies that have meaning for you! We've advanced far enough in magick now that you don't need to rely on musty relics. Anything you create for yourself is just as valid (if not more) as anything in the Goetia. Write your own magickal language, invent sigils for yourself, create symbolic associations with personal meaning. Create your own worlds, planes, or anything else. Don't take anything for granted, "energy" included. Destroy "energy," banish it from your mind, or reinvent it and market it to yourself in a shiny new cellophane package. Practices like these will be much, much more powerful than anything you'll find in a 17th century book.

As a caveat I'll say that it IS indeed fun to read old magickal texts and incorporate elements of it into your practice or become inspired from it.

I only mention any this because you're new and I thought I'd grab you and shake you down before you become one of the zombies you see around magick forums that are trapped in the past.

Good luck!

thanks for the tips. it's along the same lines as what my teacher is telling me too. Magick from what i can gather from both of you is that it's highly personal. and it can work however you want it to work - no right or wrong way. i will do my best to remember that.
sera

The idea of a Supreme God governing angels, demons, etc... is held dear by billions of people worldwide, so while the books themselves may not reflect modern advances in technology, the "paradigm" behind them is as vibrant as ever.

No matter what background a magical spell or ceremony has, if the procedure is defined you can try it and see what happens. The grimoires have an advantage (for practicing occultists, at least) in that the ceremonies are described for use rather than for study or mystic illumination. The spells and conjurations of the grimoires, and many other magical texts, do not lose efficacy with time.

The proof of a magical system is found in what you do with it, not in its relation to science or philosophy. Sure you can "make up" anything and use it, but to what extent? Like the grimoires and any other written occult work, the only way to know if you have something useful is to use it.

If you get the sort of results you want, that's great, but are there results you desire that you can't produce? A lot of these desirable effects are listed as the rewards and powers of conjuring in "musty old books," and I think they're worth exploring for that reason. Additionally I try to approach magic with the scientific method in mind, and I never though it was scientific to dismiss an entire subject without at least giving it a fair test.

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right? No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it. You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves. Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

Good day.

This is exactly what my teacher says!!! Magick is EXTREMELY personal! no matter what you do or what has worked for others you must find your own path and your own way of doing things. take christianity as an example - specifically catholicism... they have their prayers that they memorize, the ritual, the ceremony, etc etc but isn't personal?? only if the person who follows that faith MAKES it personal - otherwise they're just systematically following the system.
sera

This is exactly what my teacher says!!! Magick is EXTREMELY personal! no matter what you do or what has worked for others you must find your own path and your own way of doing things. take christianity as an example - specifically catholicism... they have their prayers that they memorize, the ritual, the ceremony, etc etc but isn't personal?? only if the person who follows that faith MAKES it personal - otherwise they're just systematically following the system.
sera

Yes ma'am. Do not trust anyone that says they have all the answers for you. Do not put faith in any book, teacher, tradition, or consensus. The old Daoist mystic Zhuangzi once said, "Cherish that which is within you, and shut off that which is without; for much knowledge is a curse."

Cheers.

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

I don't necessarily think the grimoires are "more valid" than anything else that works. I think the imagery is cool. I like to make the seals and the other required tools. Most importantly, it works. A lot of systems that rely heavily on creativity or free form magic simply do not.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

A. E. Waite commented that "the besetting bibliographic sins of the grimoires are back-dating and imputed authorship."

Hopefully we can have a civil discourse without the need for ad-hominems.

Antiquity does not lend power to occult work. Are we clear on this? Yes? Good.

I think that archeological finds are important, old documents, histories, and logs of events, these things have value that goes far beyond their "spiritual significance" whatever they may imply. They are worth serious study. -It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right?

You imply that the grimoires have become out-dated and obsolete due to unspecified "advances." What precisely has become obsolete, at what point did it become so, and what advances have arisen to replace it?

Billions of people believe in God, angels, etc... The paradigm that the grimoires take for a foundation is very much alive and well. Their belief doesn't lend any effectiveness to the system, but it's definitely not so arcane. Compared to ancient Buddhism, Aztec mythology, or Greek and Latin deities, the grimoires are using a paradigm in current use. It is unreasonable to say that they are out-dated on account of their reliance on monotheism.


-No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

Serious study of the Bible, the Koran, and apocryphal texts is of extreme importance to the student of demonology. Study of a subject does not require unwavering belief in its doctrines. I report my studies, experiments, and results, I have never attributed any special spiritual significance to any of it.

I prefer to think that magic appeals to people for what it can do. Works of wonder, gain for small effort, joy despite opposition... people of all religions and cultures appreciate magic, even if they are suspicious of its practitioners. You would "feel sorry for me" if I were a devout Jew practicing an art attributed to Solomon, invoking names of my God and subjugating the enemies of his elect? There is magic in all cultures, so why would you feel sorry for someone who finds (and uses) the magic in his or her own?

-This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it.

The grimoires make several clear assertions. They lay out a series of actions you must perform, under specific conditions, and they describe the expected results of the actions. To chop up the work and use what you "like" about it for something else is assuming that the grimoire works without any experimental data to give credibility to the parts you extract. I believe it is important to experience a ritual (whether Goetia, the Necronomicon, or any sort of spell) in its original form before making any claim to know how it works at all, or even if it works at all.

Is this such a terribly zombie-like thing to say? Is it so absurd to ask that people cook with a cookbook before inventing their own pies and cakes and sauces? I am advocating a real scientific investigation of any occult work you undertake. If you have instructions, follow them perfectly, and evaluate the effects. Until you have done so, you can only speak with ignorance and prejudice.

-You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves.

You can fart in a jar and call it a god, but try getting that god to overthrow a city, or even get you a date.

Most of the occultists I know who avoid the grimoires, especially young occultists, do so out of a disdain for monotheism. That in itself is fine, but it's a shame to see so many of them latch on to nonsense and ineffective techniques just to avoid trying something for S&G that happens to invoke Jehovah.

I enjoy creating the tools of Goetia, studying it, letting it be the inspiration for my art. I also have the tools of other systems of magic, and have used them. There is no modern magical instruction I consider superior to the classic grimoires, nor do I feel they offer anything more. In fact, they offer much less in terms of result. I consider the majority nothing more than glorified self-help books.

-Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

As I have said before on these forums, the technical foundation of the grimoires stems from pacts or covenants. The names, sigils, powers, etc... are those deemed appropriate by the authors. It could have just as well been any other names and sigils, but the authors chose those out of a personal affinity for them. They do not necessarily reflect anything "true," it is a user-interface media through which others can access the system.

Do you feel trapped by your cookbooks? Do you feel trapped by manuals of electronic circuits, or diagrams on how to build a staircase?

In what ways do you consider the Goetia a "trap." Who set the "trap?" Why is it dangerous to get "caught" in it?

Magic is interesting to me for what it can do, not for what it means or for how it reflects my personal spirituality. If a spell involved dancing around like a chicken while invoking ludicrous names, and was widely reputed to be effective, you can bet I'd try it and see rather than dismiss it as inane. So what if it's not personal, meaningful, or cutting-edge? I'm more interested in what works and what can be done with that.

I can definitely appreciate your opinion - i think that having a "personal" touch to it is very much up to the person interacting with said magic. i don't believe any magick can really ever become truly obsolete unless it stops working. the only prerequisite to something working whether it be a grimoire or something made up on your own is belief. if you believe in it then something will happen on at least 7 out of 10 attempts - or such is the way i feel. now i could be wrong statistically as some things won't work no matter how much you believe in them. i know that i could no more destroy a town by fire than call forth a flood from dry land - no matter how hard i beileved that i was powerful enough to do such a thing. i believe that the grimoires work simply because they have been a tested and true system similar to an educational institution. Schools aren't going to become obsolete just because we have the ability to take classes online - so the same goes for instructions from previous years of experience left to us in the form of histories, bibliographies, and grimoires of magick. at the time they were written they were tested and approved by the magicians that used them. My primary point here being that both of you are correct in your observations though different in your beliefs and opinions both points are valid. On the one hand magick is EXTREMELY personal and should be dealt with on a personal basis while at the same time it is also wise to look to the past and recognize what has worked so that one can continue creating his or her own path and incorporating variances from other systems. the only thing that MUST remain true - is that it work for the individual in the manner to which the individual originally intended.
sera

(Meet the zombies.)

I don't consider the grimoires any more valid than Harry Potter, the ingredients in a Snickers bar, or a hand drawn picture of an elephant giving a haircut to a mouse.

I don't necessarily think the grimoires are "more valid" than anything else that works. I think the imagery is cool. I like to make the seals and the other required tools. Most importantly, it works. A lot of systems that rely heavily on creativity or free form magic simply do not.

Humans seem to desperately want to place their beliefs in the tradition of something ancient. If something has an old age, for some gaddamn reason it gives people a false confidence of validity. It probably has to do with insecurity and identifying with something larger than oneself. For instance, in ancient China certain scrolls were improperly dated or else attributed to the Yellow Emperor, Laozi or some other mythical figure. All of a sudden this otherwise innocuous document is now of imminent importance. This is a scam quite popular in Western occult history and even today.

A. E. Waite commented that "the besetting bibliographic sins of the grimoires are back-dating and imputed authorship."

Hopefully we can have a civil discourse without the need for ad-hominems.

Antiquity does not lend power to occult work. Are we clear on this? Yes? Good.

I think that archeological finds are important, old documents, histories, and logs of events, these things have value that goes far beyond their "spiritual significance" whatever they may imply. They are worth serious study. -It doesn't matter how foolish, unscientific, or ahistorical aspects of the Old or New Testament are people often defer to the side of ancient history. If "billions" of people believe it, there must be something to it, right?

You imply that the grimoires have become out-dated and obsolete due to unspecified "advances." What precisely has become obsolete, at what point did it become so, and what advances have arisen to replace it?

Billions of people believe in God, angels, etc... The paradigm that the grimoires take for a foundation is very much alive and well. Their belief doesn't lend any effectiveness to the system, but it's definitely not so arcane. Compared to ancient Buddhism, Aztec mythology, or Greek and Latin deities, the grimoires are using a paradigm in current use. It is unreasonable to say that they are out-dated on account of their reliance on monotheism.
-No, in actuality "billions" of people believing in the Judeo Christian God and its line up of angels is more of a sad look at cultural imperialism over the last 1500 years than anything else. Biblical history is a lot more useful for studying Western art and literature (which any educated person should be doing) than for the occult, unless this is a paradigm you enjoy working with and are inspired by (I feel sorry for you if it is.)

Serious study of the Bible, the Koran, and apocryphal texts is of extreme importance to the student of demonology. Study of a subject does not require unwavering belief in its doctrines. I report my studies, experiments, and results, I have never attributed any special spiritual significance to any of it.

I prefer to think that magic appeals to people for what it can do. Works of wonder, gain for small effort, joy despite opposition... people of all religions and cultures appreciate magic, even if they are suspicious of its practitioners. You would "feel sorry for me" if I were a devout Jew practicing an art attributed to Solomon, invoking names of my God and subjugating the enemies of his elect? There is magic in all cultures, so why would you feel sorry for someone who finds (and uses) the magic in his or her own?

-This is not to say that you can't recycle the symbolism of the Goetia or any other musty old magickal text and make use of it.

The grimoires make several clear assertions. They lay out a series of actions you must perform, under specific conditions, and they describe the expected results of the actions. To chop up the work and use what you "like" about it for something else is assuming that the grimoire works without any experimental data to give credibility to the parts you extract. I believe it is important to experience a ritual (whether Goetia, the Necronomicon, or any sort of spell) in its original form before making any claim to know how it works at all, or even if it works at all.

Is this such a terribly zombie-like thing to say? Is it so absurd to ask that people cook with a cookbook before inventing their own pies and cakes and sauces? I am advocating a real scientific investigation of any occult work you undertake. If you have instructions, follow them perfectly, and evaluate the effects. Until you have done so, you can only speak with ignorance and prejudice.

-You can. But this is dangerous, unnecessary, and ultimately a prison. The most impressive magick comes from your heart. It comes from your creativity, your soul, your God, your subconscious, or whatever it is you have. Magick is the ultimate artistic interaction with your reality. There's no faking it and when you experience it you'll feel empathy for those stuck chasing the ghosts of others rather than trusting in themselves.

You can fart in a jar and call it a god, but try getting that god to overthrow a city, or even get you a date.

Most of the occultists I know who avoid the grimoires, especially young occultists, do so out of a disdain for monotheism. That in itself is fine, but it's a shame to see so many of them latch on to nonsense and ineffective techniques just to avoid trying something for S&G that happens to invoke Jehovah.

I enjoy creating the tools of Goetia, studying it, letting it be the inspiration for my art. I also have the tools of other systems of magic, and have used them. There is no modern magical instruction I consider superior to the classic grimoires, nor do I feel they offer anything more. In fact, they offer much less in terms of result. I consider the majority nothing more than glorified self-help books.

-Maybe the Goetia can be your training wheels but know that the paradigms of others are TRAPS and most people never escape from them. They parrot the rituals and beliefs of others in hopes of attaining what those others did without ever thinking that the reason these ever worked (that is IF they ever worked) is because they were deeply personal.

As I have said before on these forums, the technical foundation of the grimoires stems from pacts or covenants. The names, sigils, powers, etc... are those deemed appropriate by the authors. It could have just as well been any other names and sigils, but the authors chose those out of a personal affinity for them. They do not necessarily reflect anything "true," it is a user-interface media through which others can access the system.

Do you feel trapped by your cookbooks? Do you feel trapped by manuals of electronic circuits, or diagrams on how to build a staircase?

In what ways do you consider the Goetia a "trap." Who set the "trap?" Why is it dangerous to get "caught" in it?

Magic is interesting to me for what it can do, not for what it means or for how it reflects my personal spirituality. If a spell involved dancing around like a chicken while invoking ludicrous names, and was widely reputed to be effective, you can bet I'd try it and see rather than dismiss it as inane. So what if it's not personal, meaningful, or cutting-edge? I'm more interested in what works and what can be done with that.

I think that pretty well sums up your position and anyone else who views old rituals as "cookbooks": dancing around like chickens hoping something will happen. But if in your parroting you get results you're satisfied with then by no means listen to a damn thing I say. In fact, adopting an unparadigm can be disasterous to those who clutch to concrete ideas and the mythic "science" of the esoteric. It could render one completely impotent because that "cutting edge" you speak of is the synthesis of creativity and liberty. Scary stuff. It is much easier to rely on musty old texts than to go that route and once its explored and you find out you can't hack it you're up the creek.

For my part I approach occult history like a thief who grabs what is valuable and then gets out. Some like to take up residence but I've found this to be more like an unintended stay in a prison than a country estate.

If you enjoy what you do and it works for you please don't let me interfere! Don't believe a word I say, I beg you.

But then of course whatever you want to work works, you just have to believe in it. No need to dance around like a chicken, unless that's your thing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Somehow I can't believe there are any heights that can't be scaled by a man who knows the secret of making dreams come true. This special secret, it seems to me, can be summarized in four C's. They are Curiosity, Confidence, Courage, and Constancy and the greatest of these is Confidence. When you believe a thing, believe it all the way, implicitly and unquestionably. -- Walt Disney

(I re-read what I said and couldn't find that ad hom you're talking about but I'd like you to point it out so I can apologize.)

Cheers.

-I think that pretty well sums up your position and anyone else who views old rituals as "cookbooks": dancing around like chickens hoping something will happen.

All magic requires some sort of odd behavior and a hope that such behavior might produce results. Whether it's circles and conjurations, visualized pentacles, sigils, or Voodoo Dolls, you have to do something out of the ordinary with the intent to accomplish the extraordinary. Aside from safety and legal issues, I try not to be too picky when it comes to the sort of odd behavior required of a spell. Save the analysis and dismissal of instructions for a time when you have results data upon which to base your conclusions.

-But if in your parroting you get results you're satisfied with then by no means listen to a damn thing I say. In fact, adopting an unparadigm can be disasterous to those who clutch to concrete ideas and the mythic "science" of the esoteric. It could render one completely impotent because that "cutting edge" you speak of is the synthesis of creativity and liberty. Scary stuff. It is much easier to rely on musty old texts than to go that route and once its explored and you find out you can't hack it you're up the creek.

The idea that "belief makes magic" is a cute theory and quite popular but is utterly useless in practice. No amount of belief makes something ineffective work, and no amount of doubting makes something effective fail to work.

It is not necessary to adopt a mystical belief system in order to use magical rituals and spells from that system. If the procedure is detailed, follow the instructions. They might tell you to say a particular prayer as part of the experimental procedure: whether you believe in the god invoked by the prayer is irrelevant.

Grimoires are an important part of traditional magic apart from folk-magic. It is unreasonable to dismiss them on account of their age or their theological foundations. You might not be interested in using them or even investigating them, but it is only by experiment that we can accurately judge their practical worth.

-For my part I approach occult history like a thief who grabs what is valuable and then gets out. Some like to take up residence but I've found this to be more like an unintended stay in a prison than a country estate.

How will you determine what is valuable if you have never put it to the test?

-(I re-read what I said and couldn't find that ad hom you're talking about but I'd like you to point it out so I can apologize.)

Zombies?

I would also like to hear precisely what you consider obsolete, and what advancements have occurred to make it so. What are the "traps" and why do you feel it is dangerous to get "caught" in them?
Why should a devout Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc... discard his or her traditional religious paradigm in order to work magic, when there is ample magical tradition available for them within their own sect?

Zombies?

I would also like to hear precisely what you consider obsolete, and what advancements have occurred to make it so. What are the "traps" and why do you feel it is dangerous to get "caught" in them?
Why should a devout Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc... discard his or her traditional religious paradigm in order to work magic, when there is ample magical tradition available for them within their own sect?

I specifically said they should not discard their paradigm, I said it would make them completely impotent. Believing in something like Islam or Buddhism only works if you believe. Whatever you've derived from your old magick books only works because you believe they work. That's great. But there's nothing inherent in the rituals that makes them effective. A system is completely dependant on the user and not the other way around.

Like I said, if you're genuinely happy and effective in your practice then its dangerous to even consider what I'm saying to you. The only reason I approached this young lady was to open her mind a bit before she starts chasing ghosts.

I do apologize for calling you a zombie, I meant it as those who are in a trance and obsessed with the "right way" of doing things when the only right way is the effective way. You can be much more effective shedding the Goetia or any other old book and making a tradition that speaks to you.

Again, apologies, good sir. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Cheers!

This post has been edited by communaut: Jun 10 2007, 02:08 PM

[color=#3333FF]The idea that "belief makes magic" is a cute theory and quite popular but is utterly useless in practice. No amount of belief makes something ineffective work, and no amount of doubting makes something effective fail to work.

I'm with you on this. I have failed miserably whenever I have tried to incorporate new-age belief that "if you try hard enough, you will get what you want". That's crap, IMHO. Following older kabbalistic methods produces better results. I've never performed a full ritual as specified in a grimoire, and in practically all the ones I've "improvised" on, I've either failed, or come out of the ritual with the crap beat out of me by an angry spirit.

Creating your own spirits does produce good results though, if you put a lot of structure into your process. And to do that, you have to follow a coherent formula, like the grimoires did. So no matter what, you always have to refer to the old musty books to have an idea of what to do. Improvising on the spot is dangerous.

-Believing in something like Islam or Buddhism only works if you believe.

Magic in itself is separate from most religions. I mean to say that the grimoires and other religious occult texts (Ghayat Al-Hakim, the Atharva-Veda, The Gathas, Enochian, etc..) use a religious background for developing magical ceremonies. The underlying beliefs tend to reflect obscure but valid elements of the background philosophy, but they aren't necessarily religious in any way. Buddhism may only "work" if you believe in it, but magical ceremonies based in Buddhism work or fail on their own merit.

-Whatever you've derived from your old magick books only works because you believe they work. That's great. But there's nothing inherent in the rituals that makes them effective. A system is completely dependant on the user and not the other way around.

I approach all magic with a dose of skepticism, especially when it involves supernatural creatures of any sort. If anything I could say that it works in spite of my disbelief, and that makes it all the more fascinating.

The ritual, spell, conjuration, working... are all that there is in magic. Whether you get it from a book or make it up yourself, you're either following some sort of plan of how-it-is-supposed-to-work, or you are just wasting time pretending you can visualize and "will" yourself toward vague notions of personal power. If you have used Magic, you have followed some sort of method. There were words, actions, symbols, and a plan for its use. If you don't actually do something, it's not Magic but Luck that you have chosen to pursue.

Very little of the background for the grimoires is given. If a person were unfamiliar with Judaism and Christianity, the grimoires would not give too much of a hint at the nature of those religions. The correct performance is required, and that works or fails regardless of the magician's beliefs. I know for a fact that there are people in India who use part of the Grimoirium Verum and have almost no idea who Jehovah and Lucifer are. On a similar but lighter note there is an old Sonny Chiba movie where the main villain casts spells from Le Dragon Rouge as part of his Christian cabal against Buddhists.

-Like I said, if you're genuinely happy and effective in your practice then its dangerous to even consider what I'm saying to you. The only reason I approached this young lady was to open her mind a bit before she starts chasing ghosts.

Come on and spare me the great danger of freestyle Chaos Magic. Do be creative, be original, that's great. But give an honest appraisal of what magic does for you, and pay attention to the way in which it is accomplished. Also be careful not to under- or over-estimate any occult work without careful experimentation.

Dear All,

I'm new to the forum but have had the chance of reading many of the postings, very nice and interesting how they have been approached. This is my first psoting and hope to make it right and post it in the right place.

At this point I would like to receive some help, which I'll really appreciate, and is about Evocation. I need to evoke some olympic entity, and I have a dilemma: I need a problem to solve, but to actually solve the situation I need to ask for two things which -if done- swill solve the problem. Now, my concern is, am I asking for two things or, else, I'm asking just for one thing that is made-up of two main aspects?

Or maybe is easier to ask: can I ask for two things in a single evocation of an Olympic spirit?

I hope I have not confuseed anyone, and in the meantime I hope to receive some help on this, I'll really thank you for this!

Markus

Dear All,

I
Or maybe is easier to ask: can I ask for two things in a single evocation of an Olympic spirit?

I hope I have not confuseed anyone, and in the meantime I hope to receive some help on this, I'll really thank you for this!

Markus

Hi Markus, good to have you here.

Yes i dont see why not. There are not that many rules in evocation you do what you feel. the magickian is always in control. So yeah, you could ask two things from him for sure. as long as theyre not really difficult tasks.

Peace