Goetic Experiment - Gremory, The evocation fails, can you hazard a guess why? Options

Greetings!
Just a quick note here...the posts that I deleted had absolutely nothing to do with Hyssop, etc. Try search function, type in hyssop*, set search for all posts older than today and encompassing all forums, press begin search. There should be a fair amount of material showing up (I just did this search) Happy reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

The type of oil used for the anointing is not specified in the text. I use hyssop because it is part of the psalm (is it 114?) "purge me with hyssop" etc. While I wouldn't suggest you should just use any oil, I will not say hyssop specifically is necessary. Several sacred oils are described in religious and occult texts and (so far as I am aware) none are hyssop.

It was initially Furcas that appeared as a black form, and it was not a blob or anything like that, though maybe others do appear this way. What appeared was something like a man pulled into a goat shape as if he were made of taffy. The legs were deformed, the fingers were joined together like cloven hooves, and the face was long with large ears. It was very distinct, extremely disturbing, and since I had the triangle in the wrong place it was right next to my circle and far too close for comfort. When finally this spirit was called properly, the deformed goat thing was no more than a "mount" for the real apparition.

Foras, also called without the oil, did not appear at all, and it was not until the place was full of smoke that it finally showed itself. It was outlined in smoke, which was fortunately thick enough for it to make a clear hole in the shape of a very large hunch-backed man with long arms and a protrusion from between its short legs like a tail or tongue. The smoke moved out from its mouth as it spoke, and was gently moved by its swaying appendage. The fully-visible form was identical except in that the "eye" or whatever on its forehead was visible and the musculature was defined, all without smoke.

Adopting new tools as they became available allowed me to see what effect each had on the overall ceremony.

Foras, also called without the oil, did not appear at all, and it was not until the place was full of smoke that it finally showed itself.

So would you say that it's probably a good idea to use plenty of incense to get at least some manifestation? At least for those of us who don't usually get a physical manifestation. Also, it would seem to me that it's most appropriate to use a planetary incense for this purpose.

On a side note, I recommend using copal, and tree resin that is used a lot here in mexico for church incense, to be used in place of frankincense, in case anyone decides to try this, let me know. I like that resin very much, as it seems to induce a trance state very quickly and it lets out a lot of smoke, more than any other resin or incense I've ever used, from a small clump. It's a very churchy sweet smell, so it adds to the sacred feel.

I too would like to know about the smoke. Was the smoke a result of your burning incense? Or was it a part of the manifestation?

I too would like to know about the smoke. Was the smoke a result of your burning incense? Or was it a part of the manifestation?

The smoke came from coals in a thick brass dish set within the circle on a steel tripod about three feet high.

At this time much of what I was doing was entirely non-traditional. I had a chalk circle and triangle in a detached garage, four large candles, a black cotton robe with an uninscribed leather belt, and the seal of the spirit engraved on an aluminum plate manufactured from the flattened bottom of a Pepsi can.

It is perhaps for this reason that the spirit was unwilling to answer, unwilling to do as I requested, and generally obstinate and offensive in all things. The conjurations were said and the fire made ready, but the curse was not necessary.

I requested from it a healthy mortal life of 600 years, and was denied with the admonition that it would not have answered "it it were not for the names," addressing me as "pathetic magician" and similar remarks. It was curt and was eager to depart, demanding its release several times. As mentioned previously, I have also called this spirit according to the traditional format, and the exchange was more pleasant although the mannerisms of the spirit were consistent with those of its first arrival.

This spirit, as demanded during the initial conjuration, has saved my life from what would have been fatal accidental injuries (long falls onto rock, crushing by tree limb, sharp objects) many times and miraculously at that. Presumably as a result of my improper binding, in each instance it seemed as though the spirit also provoked the need for its unrequested assistance. Surviving probably-fatal injuries without a scratch is wonderful, having to survive them frequently is not.

Greetings..When you first start of evokations in your magickal journey,you should use as many tools as possible and follow as straight to the book as possible in order for full manifestations to occur.For the goetics for example,if you can get everything from the lion belt to the clergymen's robe,all the power to you.

Research fully about the entity,do its seal on the appropriate metal(gold for solar entities),get its corresponding incense(e.g aloe powder for lunar entities) and use a light in your room corresponding to the planetery influence of the entity as well.Also call upon the spirit on its appropriate time and day of Influence.

Its easiest for the spirit to hear you during its time and day of influence as its nearest to our plane of existence.Also remember these are not physical beings,they live in the astral world,so if you want a Physical manifestation,you must make your place of working condusive to their plane of existence,the more condusive it is for them the easier it is for them to make a physical manifestation.

also ask them to PHYSICALLY manifest as after your calling they might already be there astrally.

However,making everything condusive for them is only part of the equation.They must belief in your authority to come in the first place.For that ,do your appropriate cleansing and meditate on the divine spark within you.let the divinity within you consume your entire being and when you call forth the entity,call it assuming yourself as God incarnate.No creature,angel or demon will ignore you when you use Divine authority to call it.

A word of warning though.Over the decades,i have met with hundreds of so called magicians,who do stuff haphazardly and show some results and mock the traditionalists for their attention to detail.What they failed to realise was that,about 80 percent of the time,their haphazard way to Ceremonial magic did not actually call forth the spirit in question,instead their belief coupled with some magick CREATED thoughtforms which were like the spirits they wanted to summon.Granted,it wouldnt matter if it was the spirit or a thoughtform if the desired result is received,but a magician who cannot tell the difference between a thoughtform and a real entity isnt really a magician in my humble opinion.

...
At this time much of what I was doing was entirely non-traditional. I had a chalk circle and triangle in a detached garage, four large candles, a black cotton robe with an uninscribed leather belt, and the seal of the spirit engraved on an aluminum plate manufactured from the flattened bottom of a Pepsi can.

Fascinating! And at the same time frustrating - how can one person get visible results with a non-traditional procedure (e.g. seal made from a pop can) and other, like myself, cannot get any noticeable results at all! What a puzzle... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hmm.gif)

Greetings!
Perhaps some rain must fall.
It is my humble opinion that not everybody will succeed with evocation. Not everybody can be an opera singer. I may want to be but it just isn't going to happen. Same goes for Brain Surgery...or Dancing, etc.

You MUST be careful with burning charcoal in an unventilated enclosed space. This can create alot of carbon monoxide and can be fatal. CO poisoning not withstanding, you needn't use lots of incense. Certain herbs/resins will give you material enough for manifestations...adding Dittany of Crete is a time honored method when calling for materializations....as does lignum aloes. You should use just a bit of incense...clouds of it will hinder proper air flow to your lungs and hence O2 to the brain. *cough* *hack* *wince*
You shouldn't need more than the end of a knife full....but adjust according to need.

Two cents worth.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lightning.gif)

Rishi, that's a great post. I hope your book comes out soon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

I was going to ask about dittany of crete. Bym, do you know of a good site where I can get it? Living here in mexico, I don't even know what it's called in spanish, and if I saw it, I wouldn't recognize it so I don't want to be ripped off either.

Why does it aid with manifestation, anyway? Does it cause hallucination? And why lignum aloes? I'm not trying to be annoying, just wanting to get the facts straight from people who know what they're talking about.

Dittany of Crete is related to oregano, it has the esoteric properties of facilitating materializations due to its strong 'earth' energies and its dense white smoke. It is not hallucenigenic. Lignum Aloes has strong affinities to lunar/water energy. It produces a fine smoke that also facilitates materializations....funny, but the 'perfumey' quality of lignum aloes is caused by a fungus that has infiltrated the wood. Occult lodges/organizations look for mediums that possess strong earth/water energy/zodiac signs when they need to physically manifest spirit phenomena.

I have found that the company Soma Luna (in the US midwest) as being a superior source for all those hard to find incense ingredients! They are reasonable and reliable! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

PS Bardons book on Evocation is worth a read! We have it in the Library...check it out!

Greetings!
Just a quick note here...the posts that I deleted had absolutely nothing to do with Hyssop, etc. Try search function, type in hyssop*, set search for all posts older than today and encompassing all forums, press begin search. There should be a fair amount of material showing up (I just did this search) Happy reading! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

Thanks - there are more results coming up now.

You MUST be careful with burning charcoal in an unventilated enclosed space. This can create alot of carbon monoxide and can be fatal. CO poisoning not withstanding, you needn't use lots of incense. Certain herbs/resins will give you material enough for manifestations...adding Dittany of Crete is a time honored method when calling for materializations....as does lignum aloes. You should use just a bit of incense...clouds of it will hinder proper air flow to your lungs and hence O2 to the brain. *cough* *hack* *wince*
You shouldn't need more than the end of a knife full....but adjust according to need.

Not to discount the safety concerns there, but the only times I've been successful in evocation was when there was a thick enough veil of incense smoke in the room.

lodges/organizations look for mediums that possess strong earth/water energy/zodiac signs when they need to physically manifest spirit phenomena.

That's interesting.. I'm an Air sign. What would be my strenghts?

I have found that the company Soma Luna (in the US midwest) as being a superior source for all those hard to find incense ingredients! They are reasonable and reliable! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Didn't find that shop online. Do they have a site?

Thanks

I use Google as my search engine. When I typed in Soma Luna, the first entry was theirs! or you could just try www.somaluna.com, or whatever floats your boat! It is a very interesting site...I hope that you will find it entertaining as well.
'Air'-types are usually used in lodge work as scryers. In no way did I mean to imply that ones zodiac sign 'locks' them into predetermined roles within a lodge structure. Some do not even equate anything to the signs of the zodiac! Pigeonholing people is a bad mistake...I offered that blurb as a point of interest only. I've known a number of mediums with many diverse zodiac ascribations! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

I use Google as my search engine. When I typed in Soma Luna, the first entry was theirs! or you could just try www.somaluna.com, or whatever floats your boat! It is a very interesting site...I hope that you will find it entertaining as well.
'Air'-types are usually used in lodge work as scryers. In no way did I mean to imply that ones zodiac sign 'locks' them into predetermined roles within a lodge structure. Some do not even equate anything to the signs of the zodiac! Pigeonholing people is a bad mistake...I offered that blurb as a point of interest only. I've known a number of mediums with many diverse zodiac ascribations! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

Strange, I did of course google for it and found nothing.

Scrying ability, isn't that the same as having good astral senses? How is that different from the Water signs if I may ask? I'm good at AP-ing (or is it perhaps MentalP-ing), getting contact and good connection "talks" with spirits etc but not AS good at getting the results from the spirits.

I know generalizations are not always correct, but if it might help me to improve in any way it could still be useful.

So...did you try the link I sent you? Scrying ability does not necessarily mean good astral senses...the ability to see is only one facet of using your astral senses, and, even then, precognitive aspects are completely different.

So...did you try the link I sent you? Scrying ability does not necessarily mean good astral senses...the ability to see is only one facet of using your astral senses, and, even then, precognitive aspects are completely different.

Yes, the link works great, thank you very much.

Hi J*S,

My censer is inside the circle, because I would light it only in the case of spirit's appearance and not prior to (this is according to any version of Goetia text I've seen, modern variations notwithstanding). Were I to have it outside of the circle, I'd have to use a sword to pass the fire into it and I'm not sure if I have the required dexterity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

As for a scrying device - I do not use one at this point. Previously, when I was fooling around with all sorts of variations, I did use a black mirror (the triangle was propped up at about 60 degrees from the floor and the mirror was in the center thereof). I would see random things every now and then, but without consistency and probably more as a result of my imagination rather than any actual manifestation. Likewise, the results of these evocations were haphazard, and tended to fail more often than succeed.

Now, I am aiming for proper evocation with proper manifestations and proper results. I don't mind going through a number of failed experiments to "get it right." And since a number of people have succeeded in doing so, I presume it is possible.

Regards,

-T.V.

Well, this is what you messed up.
1. You were to draw the sigil of Gremory on the body of a rooster or hen, offer it's life either with a knife or fire. This should have been the prelude.

2. Second thing you did wrong that most Goeticians get srewed up is you were to place the triangle of the art in the direction of the spirits geographic domain.( I don't know Gremori's/Gamori's

3. Ideally, you take the sword, aim it at the triangle and start the evocation, you can use the name term God, Be'elzebub or Amay-mon all effectively. Believe it or not Be'elzebub & Amaymon are more familiar names that they tend to fear. However, BANISH by name of God. Ideally, use YHVH at this point.

4. Another mistake you made was that when you were evoking, you didn't have the incense lit. You were to hold the seal of the entity over the burning flames, not too near, while reciting the evocation threatening to drop it in the flames. All of this is done while doing #3.
Burning the seal itself will cause him to appear if he is stubborn.

Hi Jaguar,

Thank you for your reply. Your response intrigues me.

Well, this is what you messed up.
1. You were to draw the sigil of Gremory on the body of a rooster or hen, offer it's life either with a knife or fire. This should have been the prelude.

I am not familiar with this step. I have looked at almost all existing version of Lemegetton and proto- Lemegetton manuscripts, and I do not recall seeing an instruction for sacrifice of a rooster/hen. In fact, sacrifice/gifts are only mentioned specifically for one spirit, and even then, not as a condition for its appearance, but rather to ensure the truthfulness of its statements. I'm curious where you got the above requirement from. I assume you have experimented with this step personally?

2. Second thing you did wrong that most Goeticians get srewed up is you were to place the triangle of the art in the direction of the spirits geographic domain.( I don't know Gremori's/Gamori's

I don't recall mentioning the direction of the triangle, but I have tried it in all 4 directions over several experiments.

3. Ideally, you take the sword, aim it at the triangle and start the evocation, you can use the name term God, Be'elzebub or Amay-mon all effectively. Believe it or not Be'elzebub & Amaymon are more familiar names that they tend to fear. However, BANISH by name of God. Ideally, use YHVH at this point.

Wouldn't Amaymon be more applicable for the spirits of the East only? Also, how does Belzebub figure into Goetia?

4. Another mistake you made was that when you were evoking, you didn't have the incense lit. You were to hold the seal of the entity over the burning flames, not too near, while reciting the evocation threatening to drop it in the flames. All of this is done while doing #3.
Burning the seal itself will cause him to appear if he is stubborn.

I don't see how the incense figures into this. A fire is made during one of the curses. The box with the spirit's seal inside is then placed over that fire, suspended by a chain from a sword.
Only when the spirit shows up, incense is offered to it (by putting it on the flame). To dangle the box over lit incense seems illogical somehow.


-T.V.

Hi Jaguar,

I do not recall seeing an instruction for sacrifice of a rooster/hen.

That's what you're missing.

I don't recall mentioning the direction of the triangle, but I have tried it in all 4 directions over several experiments.

Must find out proper direction. I believe it's SE

Wouldn't Amaymon be more applicable for the spirits of the East only?

Doesn't Gamori rule in the SE?

I don't see how the incense figures into this. A fire is made during one of the curses.

That's a basic and needed part.

Only when the spirit shows up, incense is offered to it (by putting it on the flame). -T.V.

It'll never work your way.

That's what you're missing.
...
It'll never work your way.

Hi Jaguar,

Could you elaborate more on your replies? The one liners such as "it will never work [my] way" aren't that helpful. I am interested in what you have to say, but I would like you to provide a bit more info as to why you think it should be done your way. Is this coming from personal experience? Or from suggestions given to you? Or from another text? Or...?

Thank you,

-Theodor

Hi Jaguar,

Could you elaborate more on your replies? I am interested in what you have to say.....

-Theodor

I just told you everything. Those were the basic neccessities. Gamori's month is December. I just told you what you lacked. An initial sacrifice plus LIT incense. I told you that you must know the proper cardinal point of Gamori which I believe is SE. Otherwise your ritual will be a undoubted failure.


Try charging your sword into a magickal weapon because it works better. Not neccary though.

Those were the basic neccessities.

According to whom? I presume you, correct? If so, is it also correct to presume that you are able to conjure these spirits to visible appearance?

Gamori's month is December.

According to which system? I know Golden Dawn has one and Aurum Solis has one (they conflict with each other). Original Lemegetton manuscripts don't mention months for most spirits.

I told you that you must know the proper cardinal point of Gamori which I believe is SE. Otherwise your ritual will be a undoubted failure.

I will put the triangle in the SE corner next time I conjure Gremory. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that this direction was the correct one?

Try charging your sword into a magickal weapon because it works better. Not neccary though.

Presumable through ritual consecration? Any specific one?

Thank you,

-Theodor

Greetings!
I've been watching this interchange with some interest and now would be a good time to freshen the air...*hack, hack...*

Jaguar, it appears that you are speaking from a position of 'experience' in regards to the evocation in question. I would like to hear of your source(s) of information regarding your statements as per request from our fellow member Theodor Voland. Nowhere within the manuscripts is it stated that a sacrifice is required (except in a few instances relating to specific spirits). Where, exactly did you come upon this info? Are the bulk of your statements based on personal experience or can this information be garnered from another source? And, if so, what are the source(s)? The membership are comprised of mostly students and knowledge-seekers where knowing about source material is very valuable and helpful.
In my workings with the Goetia I've found a few interesting facets of knowledge that were not in the original manuscripts. Personal experience would be my source for these bits of wisdom. Anytime I see someone stating, unequivocably, that such and such is so...period, then I'm very curious as to where that surety came from.

Theodor Voland, there are quite a number of texts out there that state that they have the answer to the art of evocation. Some of them come somewhat close though you'll find that as with each individual there is also a semi-unique way to achieve success with your evocations. Practice makes us see things alittle clearer. On a side note...why demons? (sorry, I had to ask)

There is one method applied to the Goetia that I think, IMHO, is crap (but others swear by)...and that is the equating the spirits of the Goetia with those of the Shemhamphorash AND the zodiac/compass points. Your call...I've never had to go that route and don't think I'll start now. BUT....if it works for you.....

Bottom line gentlepersons, please be prepared to back up your claims with some sort of source material. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will rock my world!
Keep a happy thought! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

According to whom? I presume you, correct? If so, is it also correct to presume that you are able to conjure these spirits to visible appearance?

Certainly
I will put the triangle in the SE corner next time I conjure Gremory. Out of curiosity, how did you determine that this direction was the correct one?

Presumable through ritual consecration? Any specific one?

Thank you,

-Theodor

Don't listen to the jack-boot below the post. I'm giviong sincere advice.
Well The one I used, I just used candles. But I've consecrated about a year ago so it's not like I know right off bat.

Try South before South East. It's certainly in the Cardinal point of the South though.
Keep practicing as your best day for work will be December 29th.
Follow those steps as I told you and you will get results. I've made certain of the things you questioned.
Lit incense, South position, preliminary sacrifice-doesn't have to be a hen, they sell pigeons at Mexican shoppes, hold charm descended over incense.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hey Jaguar, I was wondering what Grimoire/text this information is taken, I don't have a copy to hand its sounds similair to the Black Serpent, (though this may be incorrect). Or have you come to work this way through trial and error?. And I'm assuming the spirits manifest physically for you. What conjurations do you use? The ones in the goetia, or Greater key or another? Do the preliminaries involve abstinence or any other special conditions such as daily prayers, ritual baths etc?

As far as the the Keys of Solomon go the only reference to killing animals is in the consecrations of the white handled knife and the sword (black cock, magpie I think), and this is exclusively concerned with the Greater Key. There is no mention in the goetia, or the rest of the lesser Key of sacrifices of this kind. Its perfectly fine to add or subtract from things to suit the results your looking for, buts its not the only way. And different ways/methods work for different individuals. Savedow mixed a huge amount of the Greater Key with the goetia, while omitting and adding things of his own, with apparent success (according to his book anyway), as did crowley, obviously, but he never was able to conjure to physical manifestation, apart from one occasion when a faint outline of a shape appeared in the incense smoke. Each to their own.

Like Bym I would be interested to know your source for the information given.

Loki

Greetings!
It does not appear (literally) that we are going to see any sources extolled here about said sacrifice or conjuring quadrant.
I've been poring over my manuscripts of the Lemegeton and the Clavicle de Salomon without success. The Grimoire Verum has little to offer as well. However, I did notice an addition in Mathers editted by Crowley edition that includes planetary sigils about the magic circle that are not present in the manuscript(s) (that I have) that may have given rise to placing the Triangle in relation to the Goetic (evil) spirits mentioned in Jaguars posts. If you delve further into the five books there are definite notes involving the compass points but these do not appear before the Theurgia-Goetia and are not mentioned with the said 72 entities.
There has been alot of plagarism and outright fabrication amongst these texts over the years...most appearing (as if by magic...) post Newage advent and the revival of various Satanic/Demonalatry sects. Sacrificial notes were stated for the construction of various tools and the virgin parchment...nothing was ever mentioned about there being a sacrifice of a cockerel in the entities name/glyph before conjuration. Now this, so far, is merely the history of the alleged practice...it speaks not of later additions by practioners aiming to gain similar results. It may be that such a blood sacrifice is called for within the tenets of ones belief structure...whether or not that it is faithful to the original!
I have altered the original script with facets that I felt facilitated success. Guilty as charged! My very first connection with the Goetia was using blurbs written by Edward Waite (Mathers secretary) in his book of Ceremonial Magic/Book of Black Magic and Pacts. You will find quite a soup of styles and ideas there! Crowley later took Mathers translations and ediotted them, putting his own spin on them. The latest book by Rankine and Skinner is supposed to be the best by far of the lot! Savedow is also very informative.
Where does this leave us? You should listen to our own Imperial Arts for the Traditionalist view and your own creative compasses for the stuff that will help you achieve your ends. My way is not your way...though it may prove beneficial in the long run (or not...I make no claims!). I used to be interested in working with demons. I don't feel that way anymore...prefering less maleficent beings in my old age. Do as you will. Whether you use the Grimoire Verum, the Method of Honorius, the Lemegeton or Paracelsus or Barrett...it matters not, as long as you are concise with your work and strive for completion, the path you walk will reward you for your efforts.
BUT, please, have a care...when you know your source material you will be helping future and contemporary students in their search for the (a) truth if you take time to tell us how or why you state your views on the subject at hand.
Ma'at Kheru,
Bym (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)

[quote ='loki']
Hey Jaguar, I was wondering what Grimoire/text this information is taken, I don't have a copy to hand its sounds similair to the Black Serpent, (though this may be incorrect). Or have you come to work this way through trial and error?. And I'm assuming the spirits manifest physically for you.[/quote]

Yes, indeed. Nothing to worry about as long as you have ring for breathe, the charm with their sigil and hexagram, lighted incense, appropriate evocation schedule, and banish when finished. I have books with collected arts. It's not the book title it's the ritualistic form. iI would say Goetia.
[quote=loki] The ones in the goetia, or Greater key or another?[/quote]


To me they are the same but I would say Goetia indeed as The Goetia seems to be the original source where as the Keys have been added-subtracted according to practiconers. basically the same.
[quote name=loki]Do the preliminaries involve abstinence or any other special conditions such as daily prayers, ritual baths etc?[/quote]
Advisably they do say that one shouldn't consume meat, use candles from animal fat or have sex for a period but this in't neccessary. It does add enhancement though. Pretty much like the sacrifice.

As far as the the Keys of Solomon go the only reference to killing animals is in the consecrations of the white handled knife and the sword (black cock, magpie I think), and this is exclusively concerned with the Greater Key.[/quote]Well, I have a book that simply says Black magick that states that. Everything I've read states that. The idfference between me and the others up here is that they purchase the book that states Goetia and practice from that source. However, that's certainly an incomplete source.
That is how Theodore failed. I believe the lesser keys of solomon was written by a college professor anyway. Which means he was looking at it from a different stance anyway.

This was where Theodore went wrong. many cut & sift the Goetia or whatever to a more practical sense and this is what causes many to go wrong. If Theodore does what I stated and just practice until then, it will work. You mentioned using a white handled dagger, and I am familiar with that as well. That's more of a European influence. originally it was all metal and ideally self forged.

Theodore doesn't need the actual Goetic circle but he ADVISABLY should use a chalk cirle at simplest with hand crafted pentagrams with archangels in each pentragrams. This increases the strenbth of the evocation. Since he is working with Gamori, he COULD use ornage as orange is his color. But he must practice procedure all of this time until he carries it out.

This post has been edited by Jaguar: Nov 21 2007, 05:55 PM

jaguar,

you're not helping anybody if you're not very clear. You only say that everyone has to do things a certain way, but don't help us understand why.

What are your sources? I understand if the spirits gave you these tips, or a teacher handed them down to you. If you're sworn to secrecy, fine. But at least give that much of an explanation, ok?

Anyway, I think that Athena (on an earlier post) said it well: the magicians from the old days would work for years to get results, and I'm assuming that goes for any style of magic. So if loki was successful in the past with GD evocation, then he needs to work with grimoiric evocation now (which is what he's doing) and so with time, he'll figure out how to get it to work for him.

Anybody who's used chaos magic for example with great success, then suddenly switches to grimoiric magic can tell you that it's that sudden change that makes things hard. If you're dead-set on your ways, you need to forget all that and become a different kind of mage. Only then will success come.

Altpath

jaguar,

you're not helping anybody if you're not very clear. You only say that everyone has to do things a certain way, but don't help us understand why.

What are your sources? I understand if the spirits gave you these tips, or a teacher handed them down to you. If you're sworn to secrecy, fine. But at least give that much of an explanation, ok?

Anyway, I think that Athena (on an earlier post) said it well: the magicians from the old days would work for years to get results, and I'm assuming that goes for any style of magic. So if loki was successful in the past with GD evocation, then he needs to work with grimoiric evocation now (which is what he's doing) and so with time, he'll figure out how to get it to work for him.

Anybody who's used chaos magic for example with great success, then suddenly switches to grimoiric magic can tell you that it's that sudden change that makes things hard. If you're dead-set on your ways, you need to forget all that and become a different kind of mage. Only then will success come.

Altpath

Look! My response was to Theodore. A student that failed in his first attempt. I am walking him through this so that he may be successful as he is sincere about his practice.

The only reason i did this was because others were turning his thread into a senseless thread about other irrelavent things without regarding the subject. That's all. He will be successful if he only practice until the day I told him

As far as the the Keys of Solomon go the only reference to killing animals is in the consecrations of the white handled knife and the sword (black cock, magpie I think), and this is exclusively concerned with the Greater Key.

I believe the lesser keys of solomon was written by a college professor anyway. Which means he was looking at it from a different stance anyway.

In Goetia the sacrifice is done for the sealing of the brazen vessel, for the sake of making the Secret Seal of Solomon in the blood of a black virgin cock. There is no rule against eating the rooster (some people do that!) given by the text, nor really is it specified that you have to kill the bird though I doubt you want to give it a transfusion. I have never done this, and leave it up to others thus inclined.

In the Key of Solomon, there are several uses of blood. I think it would be well to mention them in their proper context here for the sake of clarity.

There are, in addition to the Sword of Art, three sorts of blades used in the Key. The first is the White handled blade, used to actually cut and fit the parts of the tools that require a little cutting, and most importantly to cut the cord used for drawing the circle. It is made under the bright moon, tempered with the juice of a white primrose and the blood of a white gosling. The second blade is the Black handled blade, which is used to draw out the circle itself at the end of a cord loop. It is made during the dark moon with the juice of a black hemlock and the blood of a black cat. The remaining blade, which I call the Red handled blade, is quenched in the juice of a grey herb called mercury and the blood of a black & white magpie. This final blade or blades may be one or several shaped tools used to work on various tools of the art, and is used in the end to make the central point of the circle to which the cord is fixed.

The gosling is a stock animal, there is no moral attribute affected by its slaughter. The cat is a predator and it is a "dark" act to kill it though this is sometimes a necessity as many animal shelters will tell you. The magpie is not harmful nor especially helpful, and they can be annoying if they live too close, so it is a grey area regarding the ethics of the act. Since nowadays most of us can own swords legally, we need not be troubled by killing animals for these daggers, as the circle can be made by the sword alone and still fit the ritual of the Key of Solomon without any of the daggers at all. it should also be understood that these are not sacrifices per se, but animals whose blood is used to quench the blades, as water produces aporous and brittle edge whereas blood or oil does not.

The Key also recommends the use of bat's blood to mark the sigils upon the Graver of Art, but the bat is afterward released and only a single drop is used.

In later Grimoires the sacrifice is made to Adonay ("the Lord") and is similar in character to what you would find in Leviticus. These sacrifices are always used as part of making the items or parchments needed in the ceremonies, and animal slaughter would have been part of any medieval pachment recipe in some way or another. At any rate they are offered to God to consecrate the work, not to the spirits at all.

In the Key, there is some mention of gifts to be presented at the circle. Elderberry wine and fresh buttered bread serve well here. For spirits of the Goetia like Paimon, beer in a nice cup is sufficient. There is no need to make your ceremonies illegal, unsanitary, and possibly antisocial.

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Nov 21 2007, 06:08 PM