Demonolatry - Where Is The Line? Options

I remember a thread that Darkmage wrote in a while ago in this forum, about rewards/offerings for Goetic spirits.

The thing that I'm a little unsure about though is, the entries for some of the spirits say that if you reward them, they will lie to you (or possibly think they can walk all over you) as a result. The single main reason why I'm asking this, is because of what an ass I was to Paimon, when I evoked him.

My real question is, how nice can you be to Goetic spirits, before it crosses the line into demonolatry? Darkmage has basically said, it seems, that a combination of assertion and courtesy is the best way to go; however, Darkmage hasn't mentioned having any truly difficult or intimidating experiences, either. Some of the accounts Imperial Arts gives are downright scary; a few of the spirits there really don't want to play ball with him at all, and threaten to kill him, etc.

I don't want to cross the line into demonolatry, but if I do decide to work with them again, I basically want to learn what specific things I can possibly refrain from doing that will antagonise them, in order to gain the highest likelihood of a positive outcome. Darkmage mentioned making seals out of modelling clay, and that could be a good option for me, but I think if I ever evoke Kings in particular I'm going to use metals for those, in order to be really safe.

Darkmage, I know you've also said that you aren't quite as pedantic with the procedure as say Imperial; can I assume, however, that you use the sign of Solomon, as well as the seal of the spirits? That was the main thing that protected me with Paimon, as I remember, in terms of what I was using; I had a visual of a large version of that being in front of me, and basically acting like a barrier with him trying to hammer through it and get at me, and being unable to. The reason why I'm asking about that, is because one of the main things I've seen demonolators try and claim, is that the Solomonic iconography and setup is extremely antagonistic to the spirits, or can be. This is making me wonder whether, in the case of some of the unco-operative spirits in Imperial's accounts, if maybe something could have been done a little differently, in order to make them more inclined to play nice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I always use the seals of Solomon and the Hexagrams. I may be creative, but I'm not stupid. I drew the seal of Solomon on one of those mirror mats with a grease pencil, covered it, then when I felt the spirit was there, uncovered it. I had the mirror on a stand so they could 'see' the seal clearly. I also make little paper seals with the pentagram on one side and the spirit's seal on the other, and just put them around my neck during the ceremony. When it's over I burn them. *shrug* I should probably get a cheap ceramic tile and make a more permanent hexagram, but I've been dealing with other issues right now and Goetia's probably the lowest thing on my priority list atm.

I also haven't summoned quite the variety of spirits that Imperial has. The ones I've summoned have been 'oh, you're not freaked out by my appearance? Ok, we can play ball.' but then I've also summoned them as an absolute last resort after everything else in my arsenal has failed. I don't summon them first. Ever. That may be why Imperial has had issues with them, then again, having never met him, it may be differences in personality or outlook they're picking up on. I can't say.

I also draw the seal of the spirit *inside* the triangle--this usually makes them appear within the triangle from the get-go. I've never tried it otherwise, so I've never had to force them inside the triangle. What I have found is that when you pop the sigil of the spirit inside the triangle, it appears within the triangle, and the triangle acts like a cage. I still do the circles though--just in case. I also make it quite clear that I'm acting with the authority of God. I'm not arrogant, if anything most would probably say I'm *too* calm and *too* relaxed. Sure, these spirits are powerful, but so are wild animals, and I've found respecting that power goes a long way. Too many people treat these beings as tools to be pushed around, that doesn't fly with me. If someone reaches for my cat and picks him up without his permission, then gets bitten, I'm not going to blame my cat, I'm going to blame the person that didn't respect my cat's personal space. Get it?

I also genuinely *listen* to what they have to say. The few times they've told me 'no' there has been a definite reason for them saying 'no' at that time, usually due to unforeseen circumstances on my part. If I had gotten what I wanted then it would have really fubared everything and I'd have been royally SOL. So...

The ones that will lie to you if you reward them I've never had occasion to deal with. They simply don't have anything to offer me at this current time. If and when I do need to work with them, I'll post here about my experiences--if any. For right now, for me, they're an unknown quantity. *shrug*

I hope this clarifies things for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I always use the seals of Solomon and the Hexagrams. I may be creative, but I'm not stupid. I drew the seal of Solomon on one of those mirror mats with a grease pencil, covered it, then when I felt the spirit was there, uncovered it. I had the mirror on a stand so they could 'see' the seal clearly. I also make little paper seals with the pentagram on one side and the spirit's seal on the other, and just put them around my neck during the ceremony. When it's over I burn them. *shrug* I should probably get a cheap ceramic tile and make a more permanent hexagram, but I've been dealing with other issues right now and Goetia's probably the lowest thing on my priority list atm.

I had to Google mirror mats to find out what they were. That's very interesting. I'm unlikely to be using one of those myself, but I get the idea. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I also haven't summoned quite the variety of spirits that Imperial has. The ones I've summoned have been 'oh, you're not freaked out by my appearance? Ok, we can play ball.' but then I've also summoned them as an absolute last resort after everything else in my arsenal has failed. I don't summon them first. Ever. That may be why Imperial has had issues with them, then again, having never met him, it may be differences in personality or outlook they're picking up on. I can't say.

This could potentially be an issue for me as well, truthfully. If I'm really honest, I'm inclined to view the Goetia as magick's answer to skydiving, as implied by my sig. So I suspect that the Goetics would probably be inclined to look at that, and adopt an attitude of, "Oh, you WANT real danger? You WANT us to behave like literal, Hell-spawned Demons in Dante's sense of the word? Hey, we're here to serve. Welcome to the Xander zone!"

The fact that when I called Paimon, I was literally expecting Satan's second in command, on reflection might have had some small amount to do with his attitude. Then again, Imperial's account was actually surprisingly consistent with mine, and written after my own experience, and if that is anything to go by, Paimon in particular isn't exactly Mr. Personality, my own preconceptions notwithstanding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What I have found is that when you pop the sigil of the spirit inside the triangle, it appears within the triangle, and the triangle acts like a cage.

I'd always thought that a cage was exactly what the triangle was, in reality; and the circle was essentially the equivalent of one of the cages that divers get put inside when they are lowered into shark infested waters.

I still do the circles though--just in case. I also make it quite clear that I'm acting with the authority of God. I'm not arrogant, if anything most would probably say I'm *too* calm and *too* relaxed. Sure, these spirits are powerful, but so are wild animals, and I've found respecting that power goes a long way. Too many people treat these beings as tools to be pushed around, that doesn't fly with me. If someone reaches for my cat and picks him up without his permission, then gets bitten, I'm not going to blame my cat, I'm going to blame the person that didn't respect my cat's personal space. Get it?

Yes, I think I do, and I think that's a sensible attitude. One book I've also thought of getting though, is, "The Goetia of Dr Rudd," which talks about the idea that every one of the 72 Chief Spirits supposedly has a corresponding angel, who can be invoked prior to the evocation. That could perhaps serve as an additional layer of protection and authority.

I hope this clarifies things for you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yes, it has, partly also because it led me to examine my own motivations/expectations, and realise that they could be a large part of my problem.

I've never had need to summon Paimon, but everything I've heard about him tells me he's not friendly. Period. He's like the crazy old guy or the Mafia boss that 'fixes' things--but the things he's fixing had damn well better be worth his time, otherwise he's gonna teach you a lesson you're not likely to forget anytime soon. As I've said before, I've never dealt with him, but I've never needed to. God willing I never will.

The attitude I've gotten from the spirits that I have worked with ranges from 'Okay, you summoned me to jury duty. It sucks, but I'm legally obligated to be here, so I can't raise a fuss--but I reserve the right to be stubborn,' to basically the attitude of a friendly tutor who is *forced* to do the student's homework because if they don't, $Brat's rich parents will force $tutor out on the street and 'you'll never work in this town again!' Get that too much and a friendly tutor won't stay friendly for long.

I've found that spirits in general, not just Goetia, really appreciate people who try to pull their own weight first. There's a big difference between helping and performing a task *for* someone that I think a lot of people, not just magicians, forget.

I've never had need to summon Paimon, but everything I've heard about him tells me he's not friendly. Period. He's like the crazy old guy or the Mafia boss that 'fixes' things--but the things he's fixing had damn well better be worth his time, otherwise he's gonna teach you a lesson you're not likely to forget anytime soon. As I've said before, I've never dealt with him, but I've never needed to. God willing I never will.

The one human who I always think of, in association with Paimon, is Donald Rumsfeld, oddly enough. A somewhat more hard core (and more arrogant) version of that personality is about it, I think.

I've found that spirits in general, not just Goetia, really appreciate people who try to pull their own weight first. There's a big difference between helping and performing a task *for* someone that I think a lot of people, not just magicians, forget.

Yes, I'd heard that that attitude is very much the case with Bune in particular. He is said to be somewhat cranky when he first shows up, and "riches," in his case apparently doesn't mean riches directly; it means rather that he will line you up with good opportunities, and then if you put the work in, you'll get rich, rather than him just doing the astral equivalent of writing you a check.

My attitude on that score is sort of complicated. I genuinely don't have any aversion to hard work, but for several practical reasons, what I *do* have a major aversion to is conventional employment. Something I'd been thinking of, would be calling up one of the Goets who teach astrology, and learning that from them, and then after I'd started a chart interpretation business, maybe then calling Bune up, not to give me money directly, but to throw some referrals my way. I've read about other people asking him for that in the past, and apparently he's really good for it. Might be something I could think about, at least.

The one thing I really need though, where the Goetia is concerned, is a full/complete "Do/Do Not Call," list, and to me, Imperial Arts' work is more valuable for that reason than for any other. We've established that Paimon isn't friendly; now we need to work out definitively, which specific Goetics are, and are not, good to work with. The other reason why I'm grateful to Imperial for doing that, is because shooting in the dark in that manner, is better for someone who really knows their shit, as he does, than for a ceremonial newb like me. Paimon could have put much more serious hurt on me than he did; my familiar from Kali stepped between us temporarily, which I was very grateful for, and a good Thelemite friend from another forum went into bat for me, and got him off my case more permanently, as well.

I was very lucky; but lesson learned.

Ha, funny you should say that. I always thought of a darker version of Dick Cheney, myself. And yes, that's very true of Bune--he may send you cold hard cash, but usually it's because he *knows* you can't get it for yourself. Usually, though, he'll send you chances, and it's up to the practitioner to take advantage of them. Ziku from the Necronomicon is very much the same thing--some may argue that they're the same being but I'm not so sure on that.

As for conventional employment, don't forget the world is a very big place and sometimes working for someone else simply isn't possible, for whatever reason. Bune is very good at helping you find your own way--but you've got to walk the path, he can't.

Imperial Arts is really doing us all a service by pushing Goetia to its limits to see exactly what it can and can't do. I've never really had a desire to do that--I'm more one for cherry-picking spirits when and if I need them for their specialist skills. Basically I hire consultants. *shrug*

Darkmage has basically said, it seems, that a combination of assertion and courtesy is the best way to go; however, Darkmage hasn't mentioned having any truly difficult or intimidating experiences, either. Some of the accounts Imperial Arts gives are downright scary; a few of the spirits there really don't want to play ball with him at all, and threaten to kill him, etc.

Assertion and Courtesy... a word comes to mind. I believe it's "Professionalism." Think about it. Goetics will do what you ask of them, given you have the right amount of authority, but unless you add the asterisks and fine print to your contract to them, they will be the ones making the asterisks and fine print on you!! As I have studied a bit over the years, I noticed that any dealing with a Goetic more or less takes itself to be almost like a business-to-business contract. They have their own agendas (domains). Give them something they want, in exchange for something you want from them. Outline very carefully what they cannot touch, and that what you offer is all that they are getting.

To add an additional twist, perhaps it may be wise to give a simple caveat at the end, "It is up to you (spirit) whether or not to accept the terms of this contract." Make it like an End User License Agreement. They get nothing unless they agree.

Authority is about having responsibility to power and the upper hand to use it!!

I don't want to cross the line into demonolatry, but if I do decide to work with them again, I basically want to learn what specific things I can possibly refrain from doing that will antagonise them, in order to gain the highest likelihood of a positive outcome.

Assert what you want as defined by, "I wish for you to," in stead of in the format of, "I wish for you to not." When it comes to what you do not want, make seals that correspond to aspects of your life that you wish to be untouched.

Deleted for pretentiousness. My apologies. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by Petrus: Feb 28 2010, 07:00 AM