Satan Good Or Bad, ?????? Options

Is satan (Lucifer) really evil i mean if you follow christian beliefs. I know he is supposed to be the most evil being/deity ever. But what happened to the souls of those who were bad before Lucifer became the devil i mean once he was Gods highest regarded angel. So is it to be assumed that every one was just perfect before satan come around. Or was God just scared that Lucifer was becoming more powerful or just as powerful and decided that he wanted to remain supreme. So he banished Satan was god just being power hungry and didnt want to share his rule? Anyone have any thoughts on this i do not believe in christ or any of that personally but i do like to know as much as possible so when people (general people in my area are christian) question what i belive i can put it to them so to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

Is satan (Lucifer) really evil i mean if you follow christian beliefs. I know he is supposed to be the most evil being/deity ever. But what happened to the souls of those who were bad before Lucifer became the devil i mean once he was Gods highest regarded angel. So is it to be assumed that every one was just perfect before satan come around. Or was God just scared that Lucifer was becoming more powerful or just as powerful and decided that he wanted to remain supreme. So he banished Satan was god just being power hungry and didnt want to share his rule? Anyone have any thoughts on this i do not believe in christ or any of that personally but i do like to know as much as possible so when people (general people in my area are christian) question what i belive i can put it to them so to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

You're asking the wrong question. Good or bad? Such a categorization is the downfall of any magician. We are here to see in shades of grey.

Yeah i do not see "Good" or "Evil" i understand your meaning of seeing in grey. But from a christian view such as everyone who i know how could you go about telling them that devil is not bad i have been reading The Satanic Bible and its very interesting LaVey is a brilliant man. Just trying to explain devil is'nt bad and bible is wrong (sorry if that made anyone mad just saying my opinion). My friends know that i do not beieve in the bible at all and they ask questions as to why not this is one that has come up before and im trying to explain to them why the bible doesnt make since. (sorry if this is confusing) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sorry_2.gif) .

Even in a christian sense, from my point of view there isn't just a yes or a no. First of all, I have significant objections about whether satan is the same as lucifer, or whether the latter is something completely different. The word satan means opposition, which depending on each one's interpretation can lead to different conclusions about good or evil. For me lucifer has to do with what brings the light, and it's a misinterpretation that led to the integration with satan.

From a perspective of esoteric and gnostic christianity, YHVH is evil. From this point of view the god of the old testament, which is YHVH, has many names (Samael, Saklas, Yaldabaoth) and is ignorant and evil creator, the Demiurge. This makes the perspective of good and evil, and god and satan/lucifer more complicated.

Even in a christian sense, from my point of view there isn't just a yes or a no. First of all, I have significant objections about whether satan is the same as lucifer, or whether the latter is something completely different. The word satan means opposition, which depending on each one's interpretation can lead to different conclusions about good or evil. For me lucifer has to do with what brings the light, and it's a misinterpretation that led to the integration with satan.

From a perspective of esoteric and gnostic christianity, YHVH is evil. From this point of view the god of the old testament, which is YHVH, has many names (Samael, Saklas, Yaldabaoth) and is ignorant and evil creator, the Demiurge. This makes the perspective of good and evil, and god and satan/lucifer more complicated.

Ah yes i had the same thought as satan and lucifer are to totally diffrent. For one Satan is the dark side of human nature the one many christians call sin when in fact its human nature. Lucifer is the light bringer hmmmmm light bringer is supposed to be most evil deity ever (in christian faiths) something doesnt add up and god is a hypocrite he tells humans things we do are sin such as greed and lust for power but wasnt it god that banished Lucifer because he was becoming to powerful or the same as god sounds like gods power hungry but thats just my theory anyone else is free to voice there opinions on this topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/i_triangle.gif)

Is satan (Lucifer) really evil i mean if you follow christian beliefs. I know he is supposed to be the most evil being/deity ever.

It makes more sense to consider Jesus / Yeshua as a natural extension of the time in which he purportedly lived. What eventually became Christianity began as a splinter sect of Judaism. As a priest/rabbi and mystic, Jesus / Yeshua, would have likely taught traditional Qabalah for that time, among whatever other things he's purported to have learned.
Christianity is a polyglot religion, and so there's no reason to believe that its system is somehow any more pure than any other religious tradition. It could be right or wrong, and right or wrong could be irrelevant.

But what happened to the souls of those who were bad before Lucifer became the devil

That depends on your belief system, and whether you hold with the patriarchal traditions of the dying age or something else entirely.
Christianity holds that all other belief systems and spiritual practices are of the devil. Even yoga.
Trace the history of patriarchal traditions and the history of imperialism. Consider the parallels.
Honestly, patriarchy is fairly arbitrary. Its yardstick is whether or not you disagree. If you disagree, you're the devil.

i mean once he was Gods highest regarded angel. So is it to be assumed that every one was just perfect before satan come around.

Define "perfect". Consider that words like "harmonious" are vastly different in meaning than words like "obedient".
And frankly it's nothing more than convenience that everything was supposedly perfect before the Christian god, aka the greatest thing since the advent of the blumpkin.

Or was God just scared that Lucifer was becoming more powerful or just as powerful and decided that he wanted to remain supreme.

If God was scared of Lucifer, God's primacy would be in question. You're creating a straw man.

So he banished Satan was god just being power hungry and didnt want to share his rule?

That IS the impression that Christianity seems to give off about their god - that he is insecure, hypocritical, a habitual promise-breaker (check the Skeptic's Annotated Bible). Although the idea that God couldn't share His rule is silly - the commandment even says "thou shalt not have any other Gods BEFORE me".

Anyone have any thoughts on this i do not believe in christ or any of that personally but i do like to know as much as possible so when people (general people in my area are christian) question what i belive i can put it to them so to say.

That's a stupid reason to know anything. f%*! what they think. They don't really care what you believe, they only care that they don't believe it and that makes it "wrong". The problem here is that they're f%*!ing pompous. So f%*! them. Follow your heart, follow what feels right, and let them do their thing. You don't believe what they believe, so why respect their opinions?

Mod Edit: Language please, public forum.

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Apr 20 2010, 07:32 AM

Thank you thoth for the post it was very informative and apreciate you going in detail with each of my questions. I do not really care to much in what other people think of my beliefs its just annoying when there like OH NO your evil which in fact i am not at all and for example i was laying in the hospital almost dead and they had a christian preacher come in there and bug the shit out of me syaing have you excpeted jesus me trying to be nice said no in a calm tone she took it as an invitation to put her hand on were i was hurting and pray for me then i got a lecture on how the bible is just the best thing ever i wanted so bad to just tell her how damn wrong she was and scream at her but i held my tongue being kind person i am shew very annoying though :/. LOL thats kinda a story of something that happened to me but again i appreciate the post. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

No problem.

I do not really care to much in what other people think of my beliefs its just annoying when there like OH NO your evil which in fact i am not at all

Let them think whatever they want. Their fear is arguably a source of power for you, should you ever need to draw upon it. Remember the maxim "To know, to will, to dare, and to keep silent". It's a valuable guiding principle for a magickal life - especially the last one. Play your cards close to the chest; learn to be unperturbed by petty beliefs; and, importantly, learn to protect yourself from their psychic attacks.

i was laying in the hospital almost dead and they had a christian preacher come in there and bug the shit out of me syaing have you excpeted jesus me trying to be nice said no in a calm tone she took it as an invitation to put her hand on were i was hurting and pray for me

You humored someone else in a way that compromised your beliefs. Don't blame other people; that's taking the victim's role. You are responsible for telling other people what you need from them, including a need for them to leave you alone. You don't have to be mean to say so; just firm.

then i got a lecture on how the bible is just the best thing ever i wanted so bad to just tell her how damn wrong she was and scream at her but i held my tongue being kind person i am

It's better to be honest than kind. Not easier, but certainly better. And your argument shouldn't be that she was wrong about the Bible, but that you don't believe in it - which it sounds like you don't. So learn how to discredit it. The best way to do that is to know it. I recommend checking out the Skeptic's Annotated Bible to find evidence for stuff like God not keeping His word, etc., but also just to familiarize yourself with the material. You may not believe in it, but if people are going to use it against you, you might as well learn to use it too.
Also learn about how the Bible developed - the original stories upon which much of the Bible was based. Christian credibility lies in the purported infallibility of the Bible and Christianity in general; when you can show how these are untrue - and you should learn how FOR YOURSELF, not to prove anything to others - you will have earned your exemption from its clutches.

then i got a lecture on how the bible is just the best thing ever i wanted so bad to just tell her how damn wrong she was and scream at her but i held my tongue being kind person i am shew very annoying though

Then are you really any different than her? Whether you say it out loud or not - not all christians will either, or people of other faiths - you're still thinking the same thing as her, and probably with a similar emotional state. "You're beliefs are wrong, because I don't believe in them," is essentially the message of the Ego that convinces us we are right about everything.

You don't need to engage in arguments with these people, all that proves is that you're insecure about your belief system, if you even have one. It puts you on the defensive, and involves you in a pointless argument - you're never going to 'deconvert' a christian, and they are unlikely to bring you into the flock. So you're just butting heads because you dislike one another.

But the fact is, you don't know that they are wrong. Not in any experiential way, at least. You can't prove empirically that they do or don't know anything to be true or not. The same goes for whatever you believe. Frankly, no one can prove that they know anything about the spiritual world - to some degree anyway, at the least we can't prove that there is some kind of afterlife and that we do or don't get judged by something or someone after we Die, or whether or not we have any kind of advocate for us on the other side.

My point is that all of this braying on about them being wrong, etc., is just ego talking, trying to find some security, and because you have no solid faith of your own, you need to pit yourself against other faiths instead. Don't. Thoth is right, don't concern yourself with what they think, it is of no consequence to you. If other kids bother you, or adults for that matter, then just ignore them. You won't always be stuck there, and in the mean time you have much more interesting and pressing things to be concerned with than whether or not you fit in, and how to compensate for it if you don't. Fitting in is overrated, and it's not worth enough to compensate for.

peace

>>i wanted so bad to just tell her how damn wrong she was and scream at her

lol, eeeegoooooooooo!

beliefs are not just beliefs, they are stuck anchors - to unstick someone's anchor is to pull them out of their comfort spot that they have dropped their anchor in - we are not responsible for their well-being, or where they stick their anchor, and our actions that unstick other's anchoring beliefs could be considered karma-causing and really nasty behavior on our part

the ego is a bitch and like the worms game, keeps popping up everywhere no matter how many times you whack it down - once you realize that ego is a normal function of our physical body (a survival mechanism for working within a group), only then can you master it, and even use it as a good source of self-image for when you are being torn asunder and need a strong self-image to fight back with (aethyr scrying)

when someone pesters you for 'what you believe in', and they won't accept any view but their own (do to their ego), then it is quite ok to baffle them with bullshit, or even to seemingly agree with them rather than risk the karma of unsticking their anchor

>>the bible is just the best thing ever

actually the bible is quite interesting, especially if you sit down and rewrite the whole thing into your own words, line by line, researching as you go - its nothing at all like what the preachers say, and is more an amalgam of all sorts of different religious practices the 'hebrews' of the ibearian peninsula picked up in their travels, intentional and otherwise - led by a 'jealous god' to whom all non-believers are flawed, they have a unique perspective on just about everything, from a look into egypt around the latter time of the great ramses and the beginning of roman influences, to all sorts of magical practices , time and elemental manipulation, tantrics and glamorie, views on everything from kundalini flow to scalar waves to ufo contact to denial of homosexuality, all the way up to the turmoil of an uprising of change in rome, it is an interesting overview of a possible history of a particular race

This post has been edited by esoterica: Apr 20 2010, 09:15 AM

Well i would like to think you all for the post thoth appreciate the insight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) as well as esoterica and vagrant dreamer. I have read alot of the bible and went to church to learn the bible so that i may say as to why i do not believe in it there are some interesting things in there though i just dont like how christians (The ones i know) view it i believe that jesus was a real man but nothing more than another profite throughout history that some how ended up as a god. I would like this to be noted as well just to put this out there i fit in well at school most people my age are accepting of what i believe in and some are actually interested as to why i believe it but my school i have 3 preachers as my teacher and i used to go to there church then i quite and followed my own path so as you can imagine i get hasseld by them and they give me alot of crap for my beliefs thats why it makes me more mad than anything that they shouldnt bring there beliefs into the classroom i dont hassle them with mine im always polite as can be. But what can ya do lol i take it as i comes im still learning though so i am not firm yet in what i believe your right but i have a good ground bases im soaking up as much as i can each and everyday im only 16 so i guess with time comes knowledge. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

>> believe that jesus was a real man

jesus (isa) never claimed to be god but was a spiritual teacher that went all over the place to study all sorts of oriental philosophical and magickal systems, then brought them home where those in charge couldn't abide that sort of nonsense - he was of the kingly line, and married into the priestly line, in the same idea as akenaton and nefertity, and their marriage feast was complete with their sharing the one pair of sandals - its all in there!


>>accepting of what i believe in

how would they know what you believe in unless you run off at the mouth about it - there is the reason they call it the occult, which is just an old latin word that means 'secret', 'hidden' or 'silent' - nobody would ever know you are studying anything unless you run your mouth about it - its your own loose lips (driven by ego) that get you hassled, not the fault of those that hassle you - lol right up there with wearing a 'i/m a witch' t-shirt to church, it is not being secret or silent or hidden, and will only cause trouble not enlightenment, in fact it is a detriment to enlightenment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/secret.gif)

No im not open about my occult practices just more my belifes as to why i dont believe in jesus as a god i tell no one i know of my occult studies so that i avoid any hassle sorry if i didnt make that clear enough i look normal so no one would really expect me to practice anything. So i let them think what they want of me.

good to hear, you are smart to understand and avoid the traps of the ego

so is satan good or bad? - mark amaru pinkham of the modern day templers defines satan as having long long ago been a very wicked ruler called sadanos or somthing, and similar in nature to the biblical king of tyre, which is why there is lucifer, the morning star, lone power, etc, standing behind that satan, the evil king, ruler, religious leader - it is a archtype, even the final pope is supposed to have his 'occult guy' providing him the power, and they say that guy would be lucifer, but we know him better as the head of the fallen (i forget the name, sorry), symbolised by those 1/3 stars that are missing from the milky way

so the real question is is lucifer good or bad? - this symbolic intertwined snake of the cadeusius(?) in the garden of eden that somehow prevented the created humans from being just dumb slaves by awakening them to be self-aware and highly pissing off the creator so much that the creator was actually going to kill off the creation and start over, and perhaps the creator did as there are 2 similar but not identical biblical creation scenarios

advanced: to seek purity, to be either all good or all bad, grows the opposite in proportion to the purity sought

I don't think Satan is evil if he's the adversary of Yahweh. Yahweh is evil, if anyone is.

You're asking the wrong question. Good or bad? Such a categorization is the downfall of any magician. We are here to see in shades of grey.

I disagree. I am a magician and see both good and evil. Without acknowledging it following the middle pillar way of life would be impossible. There is right and wrong, and only a blind person will fail to see that. Is the beating and rape of children not evil? How about a murder in cold blood? or a drunk that beats his girlfriend or wife everyday until she committed suicide? No magician who sees these things and acts on them is blind, much the opposite.

This post has been edited by ☞Tomber☜: Aug 11 2010, 09:53 PM

"We speak of Time and Mind, which do not easily yeild into categories. We separate past and future and find that Time is an amalgam of both. We separate good and evil and find that Mind is an amalgam of both. To understand, we must grasp the whole." -- Isaac Asimov

The concept of Satan, objectively, is not so much an evil one, just an adverse one. The spirit of adversity. The spirit of conflict and resistance. That is the essence of "Satan." The very name means adversary!

To say Satan is evil is to mean that the Americans during the time of the colonies were evil for their endeavors to lead a revolution against the British. It means that Tibet is evil for posing some sort of challenge to China's authority.

The spirit of adversity is a check and balance to the natural growth of the universe. Even in nature, cancers can grow. If it weren't for the self-destructive tendencies of adversity to keep the system in check with itself, our would would be a wild growth of corrup---oops. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Well, this is what happens when people don't nurture their conscience with a balance of the power of adversity.

As Karl Jung said, "I'd rather be whole than be good." My word to everyone: Nurture the fight within. Keep the fire hot. Forge yourself in those flames. Temper yourself, and bring a change in the world. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

To say Satan is evil is to mean that the Americans during the time of the colonies were evil for their endeavors to lead a revolution against the British.

They broke away for religious freedom to worship God as they say fit, they weren't breaking away to become an archetypal symbol and being that represented the opposite of God for the rest of eternity. Sure the actions were both the same but the reasons very different. Intention behind action is often more important than the objective action. Example: a person might not steal money from a wallet that's laying around because s/he thinks they will not get caught, or someone might not steal it because it's the right thing to do. Both are the same actions (or lack of actions but I'm sure you understand) but for very different reasons, which reflect very different mindsets entirely.

Exact same actions can occur, and taking intention into account, may reflect either Evil or Good. Both of which appear to exist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mf_popeanim.gif)

This post has been edited by ☞Tomber☜: Aug 12 2010, 05:29 PM

They broke away for religious freedom to worship God as they say fit, they weren't breaking away to become an archetypal symbol and being that represented the opposite of God for the rest of eternity. Sure the actions were both the same but the reasons very different. Intention behind action is often more important than the objective action. Example: a person might not steal money from a wallet that's laying around because s/he thinks they will not get caught, or someone might not steal it because it's the right thing to do. Both are the same actions (or lack of actions but I'm sure you understand) but for very different reasons, which reflect very different mindsets entirely.

If that's you're response, then you've missed my point entirely.

The concept of Satan, objectively, is not so much an evil one, just an adverse one. The spirit of adversity. The spirit of conflict and resistance. That is the essence of "Satan." The very name means adversary!

I stick by this statement through my years of research. Linguistically speaking, Satan, or Shaitan, mean "accuser," or "adversary," respectively. This carries the thought-form energies that possess the distinct disposition not unlike a prosecuting attorney (coincidentally, such are thought to be evil as well!).

To say Satan is evil is to mean that the Americans during the time of the colonies were evil for their endeavors to lead a revolution against the British. It means that Tibet is evil for posing some sort of challenge to China's authority.

You missed the point on my statement. Where you were coming from was an approach from the premise that satan is a reflexive for "evil." I argue from the view that satan is more like a preposition: At, below, under, above, etc. The Satan of Christianity is Paganism. The Satan of Islamic Fundamentalism is America (for the time being). The Satan of 1700's America was Great Britain, and the Satan of 1700's Great Britain was colonial America. I argue from the premise that a more accurate interpretation of Satan is one of a property that can be described in relation to something else. I once thought of Satan as a single, archetypal being, but after so many years of learning, I realized more and more that the world cannot really support such a being's existence. Instead, I found it much more applicable across a wider range of belief systems to think and understand Satan as a property and facet of reality that has a place in the cosmos amongst many other axioms of reality. (ie. Life, Law, Chaos, Motion, Money, Sex, Love, etc.) I argue from the premise that by proxy of wider applicability of my argument to other views and beliefs, the degree of truthfulness of my belief is greatest (to the best of my awareness,) until someone either shows me an interpretation with even wider applicability, or prove to me that the basis for constructing my premise (logic by proxy of applicability) is fundamentally wrong.

I argue that in no way does "Satan" truly oppose "God," because the two are inextricably bound to each other, if the Christian faith is placed under scrutiny. If other world views are taken into account, Satan, as the Christans know, does not truly exist. There is no ABSOLUTE evil or adversary, able to be separated in mind and/or vaccuum, to the human race except the human race itself.

Sure the actions were both the same but the reasons very different. Intention behind action is often more important than the objective action.

Yes and no. Epicurus, a philosopher from Ancient Greece, posited that Pleasure is the highest good and Pain was the highest evil. Other philosophers posited that Altruism was the highest good, and Selfishness was the highest evil.

Intention is one thing. Result is another. They are but yin and yang in a large wheel. But is it how the wheel is built that matters? Or is what matters whether or not you are using the wheel to travel? Consistency and work are what matter, regardless. For every action, there is a result. Law of Cause and Effect. Even if no damage was intended, if damage is done, reparations have to be paid or repairs need to be made. If damage was intended, but no damage done, well... thank your lucky stars nothing happened to you, and reexamine why it is so necessary to cause damage in the first place.

We speak of Good and Evil, and find that our interpretation is an amalgam of both. Isaac Asimov, arguably one of the most intelligent humans of all time, made this statement. We see, through critical introspection, observation of others, and retrospection of our own life experiences, that Good and Evil are not black and white, but a gradient that alternates in waves much like all other properties of this universe. We have an up and down, a left and right, a black and white, yes, but the degree of which they are applied are ultimately our choice. Metaphorically speaking, there is no destination for the "up," nor is there a destination for "God." Justly so, there is no destination for "down," nor a destination for "Satan." They are directions in which we travel our lives. Vectors!

At least, this is my conclusion based on observations in my life.

This post has been edited by Xenomancer: Aug 12 2010, 07:24 PM

I argue that in no way does "Satan" truly oppose "God," because the two are inextricably bound to each other, if the Christian faith is placed under scrutiny. If other world views are taken into account, Satan, as the Christans know, does not truly exist. There is no ABSOLUTE evil or adversary, able to be separated in mind and/or vaccuum, to the human race except the human race itself.

Well I don't mean to miss your point but I do have a different opinion so hopefully it can be cleared up. Your last post cleared up what you meant quite well (to me) so I will sum up what I think a little better now that I see what you mean. That part that is in bold, that's just the part I don't agree with. I am a Christian and so I believe that Satan does physically exit in one being, and that they are not inextricably bound to each other for the reason that God was before Satan, and God will be after Satan.

But if someone isn't a Christian (or a Jew) then I see perfectly well where you are coming from and how that does make sense. If I am wrong hopefully it won't take me to many years to figure it out, and I'll keep this in mind. I am aware of archetypes and believe what you said. It's just I believe it a little differently and with something extra.

This post has been edited by ☞Tomber☜: Aug 13 2010, 07:16 AM

Well I don't mean to miss your point but I do have a different opinion so hopefully it can be cleared up. Your last post cleared up what you meant quite well (to me) so I will sum up what I think a little better now that I see what you mean. That part that is in bold, that's just the part I don't agree with. I am a Christian and so I believe that Satan does physically exit in one being, and that they are not inextricably bound to each other for the reason that God was before Satan, and God will be after Satan.

But if someone isn't a Christian (or a Jew) then I see perfectly well where you are coming from and how that does make sense. If I am wrong hopefully it won't take me to many years to figure it out, and I'll keep this in mind. I am aware of archetypes and believe what you said. It's just I believe it a little differently and with something extra.

And it's that fundamental belief that, after an argument, is shown to be the core nuance of the issue. As of right now, I don't have the time to argue my point further, but I will concede this: That yes, it is the Abrahamic view that Satan is, indeed, a certain entity, known, delegated with a certain niche in reality, and has a definite domain and consciousness. This is, indeed the view of the followers of Abrahamic belief.

I am a Christian and so I believe that Satan does physically exit in one being, and that they are not inextricably bound to each other for the reason that God was before Satan, and God will be after Satan.

But if someone isn't a Christian (or a Jew) then I see perfectly well where you are coming from and how that does make sense. If I am wrong hopefully it won't take me to many years to figure it out, and I'll keep this in mind. I am aware of archetypes and believe what you said. It's just I believe it a little differently and with something extra.

Very cool that you can keep your Christian perspective and also see how and why other people walk as they do in their own shoes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.gif)

Wish more New Agers, Thelemites, et cetera, could do the same thing visa vie their own beliefs.

(Obviously, the one and only Xenomancer doesn't have a problem doing this. And I think his summary of the "basic nut" of the argument is correct.)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shoot2.gif) (myopic worldviews that can't see outside themselves)

This post has been edited by monkman418: Aug 16 2010, 02:26 AM