Need Some Advice On Generating Intention/will Options

First of all, my sincerest greetings to everyone, may you all be blessed

Would like to do a little introduction first since I'm new to this forum and also to give a little background on the matter I'm currently dealing with, hope you guys don't mind

My current alias in this forum is arkham, I'm a knowledge seeker who had just recently found myself stepping into the path of what i would eventually recognize as some form of magick, the path which also brought me here to this forum

I don't really know how to classify my current path, since its more of a mix of the principles of everything i had read and learn about the world

The method i use is the basic implementation of the four classical western elements ( I'm still a beginner, so i don't really have much knowledge in methods and stuff ),
- the air, which is to possess the knowledge and a clear visualization of the consequence and direction of what one wish to realize
- the earth, which is to possess the faith and the belief that the things that one wishes to be realized will absolutely be realized
- the water, which is to let the things that one wish to be realized to smoothly flow into realization with minimal influence/disturbance from the outside world by wisely choosing what to act and what not to act during one's everyday life
- the fire, which is to possess the intention and will to make what one wish to realize to really be realized in life, in short the energy that fuels the realization/manifestation

The principle i think is similar to the Know, Will, Dare and Keep Silent that I've learned in several sites so far

Regarding the matter, I'm currently having trouble with generating this fire principle, or so to speak, I'm having trouble in generating the intention and will that i need to realize what i wish to realize

It's not that i don't have any intention/will, if that was the case, i won't be writing this post here to find the answer

It's just that i feel that the level of intention that I generate is too low (or calm maybe), analogically it's like a gentle lantern that shines constantly but weak, instead of the intense fire that i am seeking to generate

The gentle constant state of intention that i currently have at present does work nicely to fuel the realization of my magick, but in a rather slow and subtle way as well, not that it's a bad thing, it's just that during my troubled time, i possess a very intense will when i wish to do something (note: the intention was mostly negative at the time though), and the realization of that intent was almost always instant (most of what happened are bad things though), and it's been awhile since i experienced that level of realization now (i had currently made peace with myself), so i was wondering why

From my observation so far, the fact that i was not as troubled as before and that i was more open and acceptable to things that happened around me now was somewhat affecting my intention level

The only moment where i can generate an intention level that intense in my current state is when i was in a life-death or "this is my last chance, it is either totally succeed or totally screwed" situation (had several of them lately), while during my troubled time, i don't need any life-death situation to trigger such intention, i was simply burning and fiery all the time back then

I could maybe do things or emulate my mind to generate an extreme situation that might be able to fuel my intention, but it's not really comfortable to rely on that kind of solution

So, shortly speaking, any advice regarding how to generate an intense level of intention in normal everyday condition?

Thanks in advance to anyone who read this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

howdy and welcome

intention is based in desire - if you were on fire you would have great desire to put it out, and thus be able to generate a whole lot of intent to be able to put it out - a grandma who sees her grandchild pinned under a car can lift the heavy car because of that intent, which is based on that desire, which in turn is based on her love for her grandchild

you might check what you are trying to do and see if is something you really have a desire to do it, or frame that desire better - you can also play like an actor through different made-up scenarios to practice generating desire (which is what makes a great actor - they can generate the desire of a character)

Thanks for the advice esoterica, appreciate it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Let's see what i can dig out of it...

Note: what you will read below are mostly ramblings about my process of finding the answer to my question, and it is quite long indeed, i apologize if at some point some of it just doesn't make sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

If i were on fire, i would have great desire to put it off, because the event is potentially threatening for my well being, i might get burnt or hurt during the process, i also assume that it would indeed be painful, and because of that it challenges my well being, and so i have the desire to prevent it from happening and to try manifesting what i instead wish to happen, which is to ensure my safety

If a grandma sees her grandchild pinned under a car, she will lift the car to save her, since she loves her so much and that the event possess the potential to hurt her grandchild, which she could not allow, since the grandchild is a part of her life, grandma still want to see her grandchild go on with his/her life, grandma still hope that her grandchild can put smiles and comfort in grandma's heart, all of that would not happen if the grandchild end his/her fate by being pinned under a car, and instinctively, grandma would help her grandchild using all of grandma's life

From what i theorize so far, whenever one encounter a challenge toward what one perceive as a part of oneself (which varies with each person), a desire is generated, based on the base energy of love/fear, and was manifested in the form of intention

Which leads me to the question, can this desire be generated if there was no challenge?

My inner self said to me at this point, that water will flow from one point to another if there was a gap between the point, wind flows from one place to another due to a difference in pressure

Which somehow reminds myself on high school physics, in which there is the potential, and there is the kinetic energy (please do correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't really good with physics)
A static system posses a potential, which would be transmuted (changed?) into a form of kinetic energy if there was disturbance/change in the system (ummm, or so i remember...might be wrong though)

The potential is manifested into action/movement because there is a gap/difference between the current state that the system are currently experiencing and the next state that are assumed to took place in the system

Somehow, the term "challenge" that i used before does not feel the same as a "change" in my perception
What i meant was, in my perception, a change is neutral, it doesn't have to possess a polarity, negative and positive are based on the perception of the mind, not the actual form of the change

But when i refer to the word challenge, and when i reflect on the examples esoterica give me above, it feels that the reason why one is able to generate a desire was because of the fear of losing something, ex: losing your grandchild, hurting yourself

This loss usually lead to something positive later on (judging by what i have experience so far, every negative that happened in the past always have a positive effect somewhere in the future), but at the current moment, it feels like a loss

My mind said, then, if a loss can generate desire, then gaining something should also generate desire, they're the same thing on different edge of the spectrum anyway
However, based on my experience so far, gaining something does not give an intention as intense as having a loss does

In my case, the intention i gained by gaining something was the level of a gentle constant lantern
While the intention i gained out of fear of losing something are at the level of somewhat a great fiery explosion

This somehow brings me to the Jedi and Sith analogy, how the force was manifested in the dark side is different than how it was manifested in the light
If i were to relate to my previous thoughts, the dark side of the force was the great fiery explosion, powerful, strong, instant, destructive, somewhat of a force lightning
While the light side of the force are the gentle constant lantern, tactical, flowing, gentle, constant and calm

Which brought me to my original question, how do you generate an intense level of intention in normal everyday condition?
The term normal here is varied with every person, that i know, so I'll reshape the question

How do you generate an intense level of intention in a static, safe and sound condition without any life threatening or risky events?
Analogically speaking, how do you perform the dark side of the force by having love and compassion, and how do you perform the light side of the force if your main reason is fear?

Again, my inner self said, you don't, that's not how the system works, u can try a middle path though
Which my mind said, the middle path, jack of all trades master of none?

My first rambling process ends there, and then my mind went to another blackboard, starting to ask a new rambling of an alternative perception.....

Analogically, what if the man that got caught on fire was the human torch (the fiery dude on fantastic 4), he doesn't feel threatened by being on fire, since his very existence is fire, water might challenge him though

What if the grandma was actually wonder woman in her past? and that she still retains her powers even to this day?
She would calmly move to her grandchild and said, aw come on, it's only several tons, and the grandchild would merely pushed the car away, seemingly inherited her grandma's gene

What if one had reached a stage where one does not classify the challenges that one once see as a challenge, as a challenge no more?

At this point my inner self just answer, simple dude, just get a larger challenge, which i respond to by thinking, a larger challenge hold a higher risk
Which my inner self answer, well, then just get a different type of challenge, and i respond with, analogically i get it, but the implementation i am not really sure for now

And so, my analytical process eventually reminds mo of the quote, with great power comes great responsibility (from the first spiderman movie if I'm not mistaken)

BTW, pardon all the superhero examples, dunno why they pop out over and over again in this post, but nevermind, they serve their purposes

The most plausible answer for me so far is the same as what esoterica had advised me, practice generating my desire by playing various scenarios and went through them as an actor in my mind

But then again, is a challenge really needed to generate desire?

Water flows from the roof to the ground because of the height difference, but can water flows in opposite direction? from the ground to the roof?

My inner self said, of course dude, just use a pump, but then again, just use some waterbending

What do i get so far?
Umm...dunno, still processing the thoughts, I'll just post this post first for now, it's getting too long

Anyway, thanks for pointing me to a direction es, gladly appreciated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Other advices and input anyone?

This post has been edited by arkham: Jul 11 2010, 06:40 PM

Interesting. Intention is a interesting thing. Will itself is a pretty multifaceted thing within itself.

What kind of stuff have you working on, where will's gotten into the way? Is this theorycrafting, or are you not satisfied with results, or what exactly is it.

@kaboom13

Thx for replying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
What I'm working on with all this is simply my self development, i wish to maximize my potential on how to achieve better and faster realization of what i have in mind by devoting an intensive amount of will into that realization, but without having to be put in a troubling situation just so that the intensive amount of will can be generated

Because based on my experience so far, the case of instant realization of what i have in mind only occurred whenever i was troubled
The realization manifested in a different manner if i were in a somewhat peace of mind, presenting itself in a rather slow and natural way (maybe because there don't seem to be any need for the realization to manifest quickly since everything was simply okay)

So it occur to me, a combination of both effect?
Peace in mind while still possess the ability to have everything realized in a faster manner?

I guess that's what brought all this up for me

This post has been edited by arkham: Jul 11 2010, 09:59 PM

I've been taught the idea that man is merely a young tree within a great forest. We are at the whims of the sun and the wind, the storm, and very much, the mercy of the forest fires and burn through our worlds on a day to day basis. Whether or not we wish to see ourselves as an amalgamation of cells, or an ancient oak to-be, we are at the disposal of the world. The water we drink, the air we breathe is not ours. The osmosis and fruit we bear every spring is ours, but ultimately only an extension of us, and rather in possession of everything else. In effect, everything including us is within the possession of the universe.

What does this vaguely shamanic bordering upon patronizing retch in your mouth new age way of saying the Four (or Five, or Six etc) own our seeds and eggs (literally)? Every neuron we fire off isn't ours to keep, and be grateful that they're still firing off, and they're in our bodies. The way we learn cannot be forced, it can only really un-tether, slow, hasten on its own. We honestly can't control our ability to learn faster, or realize things faster. Though, the one thing we can do is to listen and watch more; and there'll be more to realize. Its like how a tree that demands itself to grow huge won't go anywhere, while a tree that just lets itself grow, and naturally the the branches closer to the sun, and roots draw out on its own towards the water will be a monster of a tree that needs to be cut down in a few years for messing up the piping in the closest house.

This post has been edited by kaboom13: Jul 11 2010, 10:55 PM

I am liking this thread. really cool introspection arkham (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
__

I totally agree with what esoterica posted.
__

I don't really work with elemental energy much.
But "Will", yes, I work with that a tremendous amount.

Basically, I can tell that you are a fairly calm and collected person. You're more prone towards thoughtful contemplation than volatile assertion.
I lean that way too.

I have found that it is helpful to sort of "step outside your own consciousness" for the purpose of doing magick. By that I mean, look upon your mind (all of it) as a "tool", something which you can fine tune to produce nearly any result. Basically, when applying Will, it's sort of like engineering a deliberate neurosis (not 'psychosis'). Having a good imagination is useful here. You're building up your consciousness towards a particular state of being, and direction, and application of force. If you are more able to lift a car off of your pinned daughter in a crisis situation, then learn to manipulate your own mind so that it channels this 'urgency' without the dramatic event. It will never be quite as awesome as when you have real actual events to work with (ie when your daughter really is pinned). But you can channel that mentality to a surprising degree if you put your mind to it.

Basically, to help with "Will" in magick, I would lean away from any ceremonial styles of magick for a bit, and instead focus on studying the psychological condition of "frenzy". What stimulates it, how does it work in the mind, in the brain chemistry, in the spiritual consciousness, your energy, etc. Instead of looking at the method of your magick, look at the method of what stimulates your state of mind/energy. What would it take to get you tapped in to something primal, something urgent, needful, 'driven'.

See if you can press your mental state to the point that your eyes go black and your nostrils flair (eyes going black refers to the iris opening extremely wide, so that the eye is almost all white & black with the iris pulled back to a very thin ring). Some might view that as an almost demonic archetype, but I'd disagree. Although the black eyes effect is something which is associated with possession, it's also associated with combat frenzy, and orgasms, and a few other things.

Actually, if you want to see what that looks like, rent the movie 'Narnia', the scene where Jadis (the white witch/winter queen) takes a knife to Aslan (the lion, and allegorical christ figure) on the stone table (altar, and allegorical cross). Right after she sticks him, she appears to get excited, and her eyes go black in an extremely realistic fashion that I strongly feel was not done with special effects. Bear in mind though, that this is an actress on a movie set. So if she (Tilda Swinton) can affect her own endorphins that effectively, just by being a very convincing actress (getting into the role), then you can too, without taking a knife to any CG animals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

It does not need to be associated strictly with aggression. Hyper-intense feelings of romantic love can cause a very similar effect. But I like aggression as an archetype for this, because we're talking about Will, and ultimately will is an "assertion" made by your consciousness, and assertiveness is akin to aggression. And I'd point out that being able to channel a primal assertiveness is useful not just for magick. A sexual partner will very much appreciate it as well.

Obviously this is just a 'part' of doing really effective magick. Ideally (at least to my thinking) you might want to get to a point of simultaneously channeling that sort of primal "thunderous" Will, and yet still contain that within thoughtful, even "artful", manipulations of energy, etc.

This post has been edited by Kath: Jul 12 2010, 04:32 AM

EDITED: After reading Kath's post

I feel that i processed the input kaboom give me in his last post a little too dramatically just now, and so i decide to edit the post
(was a little unstable emotionally just a while ago)

However, after reading kabom's last post, i do feel myself in need of some grounding, in which I might have spend a rather unbalanced situation between using my knowledge to open a path and letting the path reveal itself (going to do some meditation after i post this reply)

My sincerest gratitude for reminding me kaboom

@Kath
Generating will by manipulating the mind, yups, I guess it's time to give my mind some acting class (adding the idea to my to do list)

The black eye effect?
I've seen several movies that portray this effect, but never thought of it that way
Somehow it feels like an intense state of gnosis, the possession might just be one of the form that this state can deliver
The idea is interesting though, I'll give it some research

Thx Kath (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Obviously this is just a 'part' of doing really effective magick. Ideally (at least to my thinking) you might want to get to a point of simultaneously channeling that sort of primal "thunderous" Will, and yet still contain that within thoughtful, even "artful", manipulations of energy, etc.

So it occur to me, a combination of both effect?
Peace in mind while still possess the ability to have everything realized in a faster manner?

It seems that you phrase it in a clearer and wiser sentence than i did Kath
"Faster" was the word that I thought could represent my purpose, but after reading your post and kaboom's, i feel that the word was quite shallow, hope you don't mind that I borrow your definition there for awhile, might need it for some consideration of what I'm actually looking for

Gain quite some input here, for now I'm going to spend some time processing these inputs and see what i can make up with it, thx a lot guys
Feel free to add other input or advices though, every penny helps

(time to do some meditation)

This post has been edited by arkham: Jul 12 2010, 06:07 AM

a grandma who sees her grandchild pinned under a car can lift the heavy car because of that intent, which is based on that desire, which in turn is based on her love for her grandchild

A valid point. I've heard of this happening before, but in the case of a mother and daughter. She never could explain where she got that strength. Could a similar effect be involved when martial artists break stone with their fist or head?

Hey Barnard~

No, that's actually not the case. In Chinese martial arts, its not about turning on or off a specific mechanism, but essentially just bringing the energy about. In laymen's psychics where I have no ground, you're introducing more energy that pretty much overwhelms and forces the kinetic energy and the energy yielded from the impacting force into the object, preventing energetic dispersion, but rather injecting the energy into it, basically rupturing something small, but big enough to make a difference.

Just curious Katth~

Most of the times I actually slip into this state that we're discussing, I'm usually busy, or in public, or driving home, or buying groceries, et cetera. I'm not sure if its an id-driven bloodlust, or really divine fervor of the primal sort, but I need to throw some control on it, considering I need to finish driving home/buy groceries/return books from the library. Most of the time this state makes you almost one with the world and such, so any form of chaining that power down removes quite a lot.

How have you approached the whole tradoff between being start raving bonkers and having a significantly larger amount of "oomph"?

Hey Barnard~

No, that's actually not the case. In Chinese martial arts, its not about turning on or off a specific mechanism, but essentially just bringing the energy about. In laymen's psychics where I have no ground, you're introducing more energy that pretty much overwhelms and forces the kinetic energy and the energy yielded from the impacting force into the object, preventing energetic dispersion, but rather injecting the energy into it, basically rupturing something small, but big enough to make a difference.

Just curious Katth~

Most of the times I actually slip into this state that we're discussing, I'm usually busy, or in public, or driving home, or buying groceries, et cetera. I'm not sure if its an id-driven bloodlust, or really divine fervor of the primal sort, but I need to throw some control on it, considering I need to finish driving home/buy groceries/return books from the library. Most of the time this state makes you almost one with the world and such, so any form of chaining that power down removes quite a lot.

How have you approached the whole tradoff between being start raving bonkers and having a significantly larger amount of "oomph"?

oy, that is an interesting subject.

I don't think of it as "chaining it down" exactly. hmmm

I guess much would depend on exactly how you perceive this sort of 'inner savage'. I think many people view it in a somewhat animalistic or even totemic slant, where they feel that this primal side is almost mindless. I think we are largely talking about the 'reptile brain', the part of the human brain which is related to fight or flight, hunting, etc. And abstract thought doesn't really occur in that part of the brain.

Personally, I have always felt that my own primal side is perfectly capable of abstract reasoning. It is capable of poise, calculation, etc. I dunno. I know that I can be extremely 'primal' and yet be very outwardly calm and soft spoken. If there is a reptilian equivalent then it might be like a crocodile sitting perfectly still in the water, barely there at all, patient. I've been told that this is a somewhat demonic state of mind. Personally I think that we have created our spiritual heroes and villains in our own image, and so these states of mind are an innate part of our unconscious psyche. Not that I think that entities exist only the mind, quite the contrary. But our social archetypes, our stories and dogmas about such things, things such as angels or demons or really any other classic being in our social storytelling, are more a reflection of us than of entities themselves. I don't think that one has to divorce themselves from 'thought' to be primal. On the contrary, humans have hunted nearly every large land predator living in their territory to the point of extinction, even before we invented metal tools. Perhaps it might be better put that it is civilized social indoctrination which we divorce ourselves from in being 'primal'. Which in my case does not necessarily result in any uncontrollable behavior, on the contrary, I seem to inherit an extra helping of self control from it. For the most part anyway.

It was actually my first lesson with my mentor, that I was given a grand tour of my own dark and/or primal side. Introduced to vast portions of my own repressed consciousness and nature. So as to rebuild the self 'integrating' these facets (into a larger whole, with other facets of self) rather than repressing them.

Ultimately I find the greatest magical "oomf" comes from not channeling a portion of self, but the entire self. Drawing just as much from the almost divine aspects of self as from the primal, all in one unified harmonious conglomerate. A state of mind where there is no 'id' or 'ego' or 'super ego' but just 'total self'. Extending beyond even just the diverse stretches of the physical mind, and tapping into the higher self also. Sort of a "sum of all things" state of mind. And in doing that, you're basically no longer limited to a 'finite' footing, in terms of your energy and concept of 'self vs. obstacle'. Which makes your sense of 'leverage' feel quite a bit more solid.

Speaking of which, another great way to develop "oomf" for your magick is to practice deity invocation. In the christian church the closest analog to this would be the invocation of the "holy spirit" (aka the christian egregore). In my own path it would be invoking my mentor. Bear in mind i'm saying "INvoking" not Evoking". If for example you feel constrained, boxed in, etc., then invoke Brimo and watch the chains that bind you fall away like wet tissue paper.

There's also the martial arts concept of Mushin ("no mind"). This is very like what I call "raw thought", or basically doing away with the 'internal dialog'. The result is thinking in pure thought, without any verbal or visual representation within the mind. Moving the seat of consciousness to the actual point where thought occurs, rather than much further down the line where you present thoughts to yourself in your imagination. This is much faster, in terms of thinking. And much more capable of processing ideas in parallel, instead of linearly. This is basically the level of mind where hand-eye-coordination already normally occurs. I'm just suggesting moving the whole consciousness to that level, including abstract thought. Or perhaps more accurately I'm talking about taking the 'abstract' out of 'thought'. This state of mind is also useful for the purpose of generating 'oomf' in magick, as you are dealing with thought (which includes 'Will') in a very direct manner. Plus, within the energy manipulation model of magick, thought is considered something which energy reacts to, so the idea of a sort of mushin, highly direct, 'raw' thought would be much closer to 'direct magick' than something like a visualization.

The black eyes thing is caused by an endorphin released in the brain in huge quantities. The result is that your eyes experience no pain from excessive light coming into them. As a result the pupils go very very wide, letting in a very intense and vivid view. I have heard also that in such extreme states, that one's vision can improve dramatically, as the eye muscles are much less 'lazy' in this excited state, and are more willing to bend over backwards to do their job. Counteracting this somewhat, is the fact that increased bloodflow in the retina can create a redish 'tint' in your vision.

Personally I find that there are a lot of interactions between extreme physical states and extreme spiritual states. I think that either one can stimulate the other. And so being in a somewhat physically based 'frenzy' condition, can create a more frenzied spiritual/energetic condition. Exactly how all this interacts is something I'm still studying a lot. But it's led me to studying extreme states of consciousness from a global perspective.

Then there's "the zone", which is a state of mind common to artists and athletes. It's somewhat difficult to describe, but it involves an extreme level of confidence and a very very intense level of focus. This frame of mind can result in impressive artwork, or unlikely physical feats of coordination, strength, stamina, etc. I think that this is very related to the sort of gnosis which is channeled when doing magick. As well as being related to all of the above. Many of these notions are interrelated, or even in some cases just different paradigms regarding the same thing.

With WILL, its not about "I want", it's not about "I think I can", it's not even about "I know I can" ...it's about "I WILL". And knowing that you will, on such a level that you *know* that *nothing* can stand in the way of it. But not just as something you tell yourself, it has to permeate your thinking, and affect your state of mind holistically. You have to recognize the force of your own will as a crushing, unstoppable, force of nature. You can second guess yourself later of course. But not while you're doing magick, not even subconsciously. I think having strong will is very much to do with controlling your subconscious mind and bringing your whole mind to bear on something with a single unified force, without dichotomy or internal dissent or doubt.

I'm kinda rambling around, its a broad topic. I'm just glazing over things really.

Hiya everyone, I'm back

I was contemplating on the inputs for a while, and found that the reason i brought this topic was that I was a little unbalanced at the time, was a little drowned by my own work in front of the computer it seems

So, here's what i get:

The question i was looking for was actually to find how to generate the fire (the energy) that can be used to fuel the realization of my mind into the physical world (in a way, magick)

I was a little confused on whether to use the word intention, will or desire, since the term i know is simply the fire of my soul, and I can't seem to find the right word to express it in English (English isn't my native language)

During my contemplation i realize that, i do not need to generate this fire, the fire was always there, all i need was simply to let it burn by not trying to theorize it and just let it come naturally by balancing myself, which I did by listening to what my inner self is trying to say (which is that i think too much and that i should go out and refresh myself, just leave the work there for a while)

That answers my own question in a way

However, that also adds a certain curiosity in me
There was this book i read somewhere (didn't remember the title) which states that there were at least 3 things needed to perform magick, which is to know, to believe, and to have the right state of mind that can aid the realization process (stated in that book as the state of gnosis)

If the gnosis state was to be measured in a value from 0 to 1, the value 1 portrays a total dominance of the unconscious mind in oneself, while the value 0 portrays a total dominance of the conscious mind in oneself

When i started this thread, I was dominated by my conscious mind, and so i don't understand how the fire (will) was generated within me and so I try to theorize it

But when I eventually decide to do some balancing by listening and following what my unconscious mind is trying to say, I start to feel the fire once more

So it occur to me, was what I'm searching for (this fire thing) was actually a way to enter a higher value of the gnosis state?
(In a way, if a trance is 0.8 on the gnosis scale, and the mind of someone working on a desk job is 0.2, all i was trying to do was to lift my state from 0.2 to 0.4 or 0.5, which in a sense can be said as a more willful condition)

If that was so, then to generate a sense of fire within oneself (will), one can (in a way) use the principles of how to generate the state of gnosis (though done in a lighter intensity)

Some of the methods that I know that can produce this was
- to move my body to follow a rhythm (ex: tribal dance, several shaman does this to reach the state of trance if I'm not mistaken)
- to immerse myself deeply in a ritual
- to hollow my consciousness (fasting and several form of meditation)
- to use chemical manipulation (drugs, Crowley method if I was not mistaken, incense might fit here as well)
- sex/pleasure (a form of excitement, maybe like the Jadis example that Kath states)
- ordeal/pain (like the burdening and life threatening events stated before, several form of yoga might fit here as well maybe)
- worship/surrendering myself toward a god/spirit
- visualization (play scenes in mind, several form of meditation)

And so, that's what I gained from the contemplation, what do you guys think? any inputs?

I feel that ultimately, it isn't attempting to control yourself, but ultimately completely letting yourself go.

If I visualize anything when I undergo gnosis, its usually me being dragged to the the bottom of bottomless abyss (the paradox is intended in some way). At first, I struggle, then I eventually lose all breath and inhale water and die. From the the bottom of the pool, depending on the occasion, either by my own choice or not, I might stay on the bottom of the abyss, or I hit dry land, but basically my spirit body shifts into some other form (depending again, on my own choices.)

I would argue that true power comes from not the individual, but really riding on the riptide of natural energy coursing through everything is really the ultimate force. Instead of really attempting to dominate yourself, let go of everything. Of course, that requires that you have the will and focus to come back, so if its not exactly the best sounding idea, come back when you're confident that you can abandon everything.

I would argue that true power comes from not the individual, but really riding on the riptide of natural energy coursing through everything is really the ultimate force. Instead of really attempting to dominate yourself, let go of everything. Of course, that requires that you have the will and focus to come back, so if its not exactly the best sounding idea, come back when you're confident that you can abandon everything.

Well, yes indeed, the source of the true power does not come from the individual indeed, it come from the ultimate source, I feel that the individual is merely a channel, not the source, so I don't really see where to argue

And yes as well, the power come when i let go, when i try to dominate with my conscious mind, it simply won't appear, but when i simply let go (though not up to the abyss state like you did), the fire simply come, so again, I don't really see where to argue

EDIT:
I guess there was some misinterpretation of the term "total dominance of the unconscious mind" that I used, it was not meant literally as somewhat of a reign of a king or government or sort, it's simply a state of just like you said, letting go of the conscious, and letting the unconscious fill up

I guess I should shape my words better, anyone here who understand my point got a better sentence to go with?

This post has been edited by arkham: Jul 17 2010, 10:31 PM

Hey there~ you made a lot more sense, and I definitely agree with what you're saying. I think its just a matter of time. If you have the concept of constantly growing and improving yourself, you'll naturally hasten the speed of your growth. I think that in a way, what you've seen and felt as whetted your appetite. I think its possible exponentially more will start coming over time now.

a long time ago, i fashioned what I called a "universal adapter". It was for interfacing with other people. I basically sectioned off a portion of my 'self' separating it from the rest of myself with a sort of membrane. then I let this sectioned off portion of self become completely 'limp'. By this i mean I removed all sense of self determinism and will from it. made it totally sensitive to empathy, made it very malleable. So that if brought into close proximity with another person, it would resonate with them, mirroring them, and forming a strong 'entrainment based' connection. Like if you hold a tuning fork next to another tuning fork which is ringing, it will start to ring in resonance with the ringing one, just by being in close proximity to it. And that's basically what i did with myself, extruded a part of the self out from my own will, enough to let it resonate freely.

this allowed for a very intimate level of spiritual connection with nearly anyone. it works very well with non human entities as well. and by modulating the membrane separating the parts of self, one can interact with the other person through this connected system. You could, for example, let some 'will' out, through this limp part of yourself, and even potentially into the interior of the other person.

Working with energy is similar in many regards. there is both the taking away of 'self', so that you can form a connection with the energy, but there is also the ultimate direction of Will, which will be finessed through this soft receptive part of self, and into the energy being channeled. A sort of dance between extreme gentleness and "letting yourself go", and extreme willfulness and forcing your intent upon the universe. It's almost like a tool which must be gripped very loosely, ...so that you can swing it with great force. Or perhaps like a courtship, or a dance. a mesmerism even.

The best way to grab a lot of energy real fast to use, is to extend the self outwards, making yourself diffuse instead of tightly bound in a single point, so that you encompass a very very large area. And then while 'at one' with this large setting, turn that gentle intermingling from a soft caress to a forceful hand, through Will. voila, you're wielding a 'lot' of energy.

@kaboom
Thanks for the thought, appreciate it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

@Kath
About that sectioned part of the self, I thought each person already had a universal adapter deep within (the term of heart/subconscious/the god that resides within us and sort) that acts as somewhat of a connection interface to the whole system

Why splice the self further for the purpose of resonating better with the world?
I mean, isn't that a little risky Kath? or does the spliced self have some further purpose that the unconscious can't fulfill?

From what i perceive, the self was already a spliced part of the system, if it was spliced again, won't it try to reunite with us? (just like we try to reunite with the ultimate)
And if it does try to reunite, then we would need to keep fortifying the membrane/separator just so we can have the separate self for our connection purpose, and to maintain that separator would take some energy right?

Can't we just try to form a purer connection to our unconscious to achieve this, or maybe try to use some symbol or maybe manifest a servitor to connect us to the subconscious for this purpose?

I think of my spiritual goals as "ambitious", and as a result, I don't feel as though I will achieve them by way of being timid or lacking determination. So "risky" is a word which I have mostly come to ignore. I have found that 'most' things which people think are dangerous or ill advised, are in fact not dangerous, or are very minimally dangerous, or are only dangerous until you get a feel for what you're doing, which only happens one way. There are exceptions of course, I mean I have been to the emergency room as a direct result of poor judgement in my metaphysical actions. But that's the exception to the general rule. "Dangerous" is a word which people more often use to discourage others from experimenting with things that don't jive with their ideology, than it is used to describe things that actually have risk. Anyway, my cut-off for "acceptable risk" is very high.


Anyway, you're right, I agree with you. That you don't have to subdivide the self to achieve what I described. I agree that you can accomplish the same thing without doing that. We are talking about something I did pretty early on in my occult career. Currently I would more likely just refocus my consciousness to recognize the lack of difference/separation between "self" and "other", so that consciousness shifts in such a way that "other" is basically an extended part of 'self'. So I'm not necessarily recommending my old energy-manip-visualization method (though it works fine), I'm more hoping that it illustrates the dual nature of engaging external energies, the dance of give & take, the effects of passively resonating with something, and the doorway that opens up to actively resonate *at* something, to first gently work your fingers around something, and then wield it. Sort of the yin & yang of energy manipulation.

The outdated method I described is perfectly safe though. I consider it to be obsolete (like 'shielding', and dozens of other methods I have used over the years), but there's nothing wrong with the method. I didn't generally leave the energy body in that state 'full time', but rather used it as a part time 'mod' when I wanted/needed it. I used to be a regular energy-sponge, so I soaked up a lot of what was around me. This resulted in fairly rampant and uncontrolled empathy. The method I described allowed for controlling empathy, without shutting it down with a shield or anything. And also allowed for increased capacity for empathic sensation, not to mention a greater capacity for forming interpersonal spiritual connections or wielding external energy.

But yeah, nowadays I might try a method which focuses more on partially channeling the "larger self", exploiting more recent understandings about 'self' and 'will' in a non-finite sense. I think of classical visualized energy manipulation methods as sort of "first generation", I'm currently very comfortable with what might be called second generation methods, and investigating/studying something more like third gen. By this I mean that in the study of magick, there will be times when you realize certain understandings which basically renders everything you've been using 'obsolete'. I've done that once, mastered a new set of approaches, and am working on upping the ante again. Recognizing that distance/separation don't really exist would be more '2nd gen'. Channeling a non-finite state of self would be more '3rd gen', and would be the more 'gnosis' oriented approach, which I think is kinda similar to your idea of engaging the unconscious mind.

This post has been edited by Kath: Jul 19 2010, 10:58 PM

I guess I understand the the 1st gen, 2nd gen, 3d generation method analogy, in a way, its a needed stepping stone to advance further, I think you're right, they have their purpose
Just realized that the risky part that i pointed was kinda unnecessary, since every action has its consequences anyway and each has its own purpose, so to say risky is a rather unwise act to do, since its kind of a relative thing for everyone
Thanks for the insight Kath (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

BTW, emergency room?
Quite some spell it seems

hehe, well, not sure I'd call it a spell. I picked a fight with a being, that I perhaps shouldn't have.
Oh I'm sure given the details, that many might think i was being brave, or even noble.
But I was just being a show off, and being very narrow mindedly 'human' in the scope of my perspective.
It could have been fatal, but it wasn't. You live & you learn eh?
At any rate, in the end it led to a very desirable course of events.
it seems eons ago now. but it was only what, maybe 7 or 8 years. It's amazing how much things change in such a short time.

Don't feel odd for pointing out 'risk' to me. You'd be much more odd if you didn't. I seem to draw that sort of reaction. Which is ironic, since I don't really have an impulsive personality at all.
Anyway, Kat's have nine lives to sate their curiosity (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy.gif)
8 lives left? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/worthy.gif)

This post has been edited by arkham: Jul 22 2010, 10:26 PM

With WILL, its not about "I want", it's not about "I think I can", it's not even about "I know I can" ...it's about "I WILL". And knowing that you will, on such a level that you *know* that *nothing* can stand in the way of it. But not just as something you tell yourself, it has to permeate your thinking, and affect your state of mind holistically. You have to recognize the force of your own will as a crushing, unstoppable, force of nature. You can second guess yourself later of course. But not while you're doing magick, not even subconsciously. I think having strong will is very much to do with controlling your subconscious mind and bringing your whole mind to bear on something with a single unified force, without dichotomy or internal dissent or doubt.

This seems to be the most difficult part for me. Can anyone recommend any tips/tricks to "control" subconciousness (or heck, even the concious mind from doubting the intention).

This seems to be the most difficult part for me. Can anyone recommend any tips/tricks to "control" subconciousness (or heck, even the concious mind from doubting the intention).

Try not to think of it in terms of "controlling" your subconsciousness. You can no more control your lower mind than you can a small child. But you can understand it, listen to it and harness its creative power.

This is probably best done through meditation and pathworking or any practice that has you focus inward, rather than outward.

Try not to think of it in terms of "controlling" your subconsciousness. You can no more control your lower mind than you can a small child. But you can understand it, listen to it and harness its creative power.

This is probably best done through meditation and pathworking or any practice that has you focus inward, rather than outward.

I guess that's another challenge for me. I've been meditating for a while now, and I just don't think I'm doing right? I feel no different than I did before the meditation; I don't feel content, or inner peace, or any 'control' over my conciousness. Perhaps someone can recommend some ideas or recommend some resources to make the meditation more powerful? Recently, I've begun to use 'brainwave' technology, where different sounds put you in a desire state of conciousness (i.e. meditative state, lucid state, etc). After being int he meditative state for about 20 minutes, I begin the 'Ahh' meditation between the root chakra and the third eye.

Well the way I see it I wouldn't want to be doing something more powerful until I found a way that seemed to be working well. If I can't push the square block through the triangle hole, I need a triangle block not a stronger push. Maybe just relax and focus on nothing. Or maybe try talking to your unconscious. I suppose only you can figure this out, as cliche as it sounds.

This post has been edited by ☞Tomber☜: Oct 1 2010, 06:09 PM

Well, there is meditation, and there is energy work. It sounds like what you are up to, sohazia, is more energy work than meditation. Meditation is a good foundation for energy work, the question is are you meditating in the first place? What is your conception of what meditation is, and how to accomplish the practice? Chakra work, chanting, etc., these can be a kind of meditation, but really only 'super effective' when they are founded on a solid bedrock of real meditation - the practice of stilling one's consciousness.

During the meditation process, you should achieve a sense of perfect stillness, physically, mentally, and spiritually. Spending one's entire life in pursuit of this stillness would be a worthwhile endeavor. When attempting chakra work, chanting, etc., there is a question of 'signal to noise' ratio. If everything is buzzing and churning underneath your chanting, then you are not propagating that vibration alone into stillness - you are trying to yell over the crowd.

If you do not feel as though you are meditating correctly, then you are not. You can achieve a sense of transparency, stillness, nothingness or no-thing-ness, as it were, during meditation which is the goal of that practice. The application of that state is how a lot of things that are called 'meditation' are effectively practiced.

If you can sit and 'watch' your thoughts objectively without getting involved or attached to them, eventually they will slow and then stop. Then you keep 'watching' no-thing. Initially that can take a long time. People get distracted by these initial thoughts, or excited about an 'experience' or 'vision' they have during meditation. But in the absence of stimuli, the brain-mind attempts to create a stimulating environment. Ignore any visions, profound thoughts, musings on this or that, strange sensations, etc. Just watch patiently, assume an attitude of waiting patiently. Waiting patiently for enlightenment, and no other thing, and without knowing what enlightenment will be, is the essence of meditation.

peace