Deity And Respect For Culture, Is there such a thing as "cultural theft"? Options

In more serious Pagan circles the discusion is often in the lines with "Man can not manipulate Gods and thinking so is hubris. Taking Divine names out of cultural context (ie Zeus out of Greek Religion) is Cultural theft and disrespectful". All this ofcaurse with total disregard for differing paradigms and Ontologies.

It is seen as "using" Divine names in Magickal work is a disrespect towards the Deities in question (as opose to general belief most Pagan Religions do not deal in Magick).
I will not go in to paradigms here since what cnstitutes a God differs even within Religions (proper) but it should be clear, i think, that a Golden Dawn member vibrating "Zeus" has another world view than a Hellenist worshipping Zeus.

1. What is your view?
Whether or not you have a paradigm that allows for Divine names from different Cultures, do you feel it could somehow be seen as disrespectful towards that Culture or followers of a Reconstructive Religion conected to it?

2. When you invoke a Divine name in Ritual, have you studied that God and how he / she was actually percieved in ancient times in an academic manner (not even Victorian Orders such as GD and O.T.O. has their understanding of ancient Gods, Cults and Culture right acording to more modern academic studies)?

Greetings!

I'm of the opinion that you may insult or relay a sense of 'disrespect' by using divine names out of their original context but what does it matter sociologically. Thaumaturgy and chaos magic(k) rarely stop to ponder etiquette. They are after results albeit with a hammer and square pegs for round holes... The trouble this engenders is of a subtle nature (IMHO) and that being one of vibration of energy and energy currents and their action upon the experience.

A prime example of this may be found in the current disection of the Goetia by modern magicians and Newage. Since (in example) that the 'demon' Astaroth has its roots in the Sumer Astarte/Ashtoreth fame that the two (or three) are thus equal and of the same energy. Not so! Socially you'll find that adherents of Astarte rather put out with the equating of their goddess with a Judaeic demon. In Thaumaturgic workings these energies operate at completely different wavelengths!....where does this leave us? I, for one, tend to use godnames/forms within their own spheres and thus have been 'blessed' with what I consider a better result. Crossing these boundaries oftimes yield mud. I don't think that many practioners of modern times take time to ferret out and meditate on the differences within the systems brought to modern light. Newage literature has given a jaundiced eye and leaves us lacking.

I hope that my rant articulated a coherent opinion.

Nice question(s) btw! Thank you!

Intellectual property is a major issue in this Information Age, so there's no reason to think religious property would just be limited to altars and statues. Though I doubt any legal ruling would stop Christians from worshiping "God" if Judaism was found to be original owner of the monotheistic concept.
Then again, if there are actual entities present, it'd be easy enough to ask them about any problems you might have with their origins personally. It might even be the best route, they're likely to know everything about themselves, like most people in the world. Then again, it might be better to ask a related entity, because most the people I know think they're much better a things than they really are.
If they're just cultural concepts, I say don't use 'em around anyone who might be offended. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

I mainly think of the fact that all Religions are by their own nature Syncretic themselves.
At some point in history every Religion was inspired by surrounding Religions and incorporated certain features.

Nobody seems averse to historical Syncretisms like Greco / Egypyptian, Romano / Celtic, Germano /Gaelic and so on.
Other Religions are deliberately Syncretized, Thelema and Brazilian Umbanda being examples.

Heck, the whole Golden Dawn system is one big Syncretism after all, adding Kabbala to Hermetics to Tarot and so on.

Yet suddely it seems´s expected to come to a full halt.

Personally i feel the term "Cultural theft" indicates ownership.
And what about me?
If i founded a new Religion incorporating Odin and the Runes, i´m allready "Norse" as far as ancestry go (in my case Scandinavian)?
So who would i have stolen it from?

I do not necessarily think one should call things by "taken" names though.
One does not practice Hellenismos or Asatru simply because some parts of Greek or Norse culture are incorporated.

This argument currently hits very close to my heart.

I am adverse to mixing pantheons, yet find myself coming very close to doing so and at this time see no good argument against it, as long as it is done wisely.

I will explain the argument against the mix from an archetypal standpoint, then add in the cultural and temporal elements.

Most Pantheons have a fairly complete set of archetypes, some more then complete. The myths and lore surrounding one character can not be isolated without taking into account the other players.

However, when mixing, there is more overlap, more contention. The idea of calling on one set of entities from multiple pantheons in one situation who may all have the abilities to overcome this obstacle sounds perfect.
They will do it, they will more then do it.
However the approach of each comes into play. If two pantheon related entities are used, you know or have a good idea how they will interplay. If you use entities from different pantheons, that interplay is questionable at best.

Cultural and temporal concerns:
Each Pantheon was created at a time and place where it made sense to the followers, some gods stayed some where lost to time. The transformation of gods was also common as time moved to different requirements.

The Norse Gods reflected the unforgiving nature of the world according to it’s followers. Part of the north European dwellers who occupied the harshest regions during a mini ice age. Work ethic and doing what must be done regardless of the pain or struggle seems to be central there. Baldr “god of innocence, peace, joy…” is killed through trickery. These are a people who did not hold much for people who did not work with their hands.

They did not disvalue people who worked off of intelligence (the complexity of Loki’s story shows this) but they did not trust them.

On the flip side of the continent you had the Greek/Roman gods. Their influences where diverse some affecting only certain aspects of things, some only certain geographical areas of influence. But in general, intelligence, the arts, and invention where all very highly valued. Wine was one of the things held in the highest regard.

Now mixing entities of these two pantheons, seems silly in many cases. You have enough Greek/Roman gods to pretty much cover anything. But I find myself leaning in that direction none the less.

Odin hold way too much interest for me, almost a sway/influence. I for the most part can claim little if any Teutonic blood or heritage, however go back in my pretty much total Italian blood line and some Celts and Germanics are sure to fall from my tree. Specially being that part of my family is from the Alps. There was a mix of cultures if I ever saw one.

In my divinations practice, I prefer and study Tarot more then anything else, however Runes have never and I mean never been untrue and not direct for me, totally freaky and blunt. Where Tarot just seems way to open for me, however when talking about people I have taught tarot to…they are totally spot on, it is freaky.

So if you create a system with Gods from different pantheons, know what you are going for, but there are people who will struggle against it for a number of reasons. Just doing what feels right, is fine for one person, but for more then one person…it gets sticky fast.

You have to be an expert in every field you are using if you are mixing as it can be necessary for explaining to others.

I can't add anything quite as prolific to this discussion as what's already been put here, but I'm going through something similar right now. Interesting how much discussion of Teutonic beliefs there is, as that was the first pagan system that truly appealed to me. Wicca didn't click, but I didn't give it a fair shot. Either way, now I'm inspecting a set of western beliefs more familiar to the practitioners of CM. I have to build everything from the ground up, essentially... math was a difficult subject for me because I don't like to "just accept" that a representation is a universal truth.

My real concern isn't the criticism of onlookers. It's about respect and appreciation for the deities in question. I'm not sure how Odin and Zeus would coexist, nevermind Thor and Zeus. Or further, as it applies with me, to consider deities powerful, but still inferior to Ain. I'm still struggling. Maybe this would be easier with a great deal more time spent in meditation and reflection.

This is an issue close to me, along with the concept of cultural appropriation, but I'll ignore that part for now..

I don't feel it has to be disrespectful, but it often is. If one has studied the myths, the culture, the godform, then one can use them with a better sense of understanding. Often people who co-opt Godforms have not done this, and that often leads to misuse, and misunderstanding. While part of me thinks "If they misuse Energy/Gods and get screwed for it, it is their own fault," part of me is just generally bothered by the idea of coming in and "stealing" a Godform.

Someone brought up the idea (sorry I forget who) that theft makes it sound like there is ownership. In someways there is, I'll avoid the dynamics of social identity stuff, but one could consider that ownership is bestowed on the cultural that has the god, not because they made them, or anything like that, but because they honour, respect, and understand them. Anyone who honestly puts in the effort to work with, and understand an entity is free to do so, but I hate seeing Gods pulled from paradigms, patched together, and misconstrued together.

Personally as someone devoted to Kali, I hate seeing Her pulled out and slapped into any role requiring a female Godform, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Of course (and this point of view tends to irk more people, especially those who don't have background in anti-oppression), the issue is actually fairly different, when we encounter things like the Christian Godnames in non-Christian rituals. But that's only because, like it or not, fight it or not, we in North America (and much of the western world) live in a Christian society. It may claim secularity, but it's Christian, and it's infused in it, so we already have some connection/understanding of the Godform, even if we've never touched a Bible or been to Church. You can debate if that's an accurate portrayal of the Godform, but it's an accurate portrayal of many beliefs of the Godform.

Paxx brings up a good point, though I'll take the other side of it. Pantheons are complete for the most part. Coming from a Jungian/Campbellian background a Pantheon represents all the aspects of the human consciousness as understood by that culture. Which is one of the many reasons you see overlap of Godforms across cultures, because it doesn't matter where you're from, you were having sex and babies.

The trouble with people who make mix and match Pantheons, is they often aren't as complete, and this in turn could be symbolic or representative of their own imbalances. For the ease of example, I mean no disrespect with this oversimplification. Say someone is patching a pantheon of gods they like, and work well with. Their debating sky-father/all-father figures. Yeah, Re, Zeus, and Odin could all be in that role, but each of them also has other aspects than that. Odin has more ties to language as he discovered the Runes, so picking Zeus removes that communication aspect. One for one it's not a horrible thing, but when people patch together several, they'll either get a personal pantheon that is missing a lot of aspects, or overwhelming in others

The other side of that same problem is overlap or conflicts in the godforms you try to mix. Yeah, Shiva and Shakti go well together, but just because you think Morgainne is a better God to use, doesn't mean Shiva will work with her just as well.

I think that is enough of my rambles, I believe (and hope) that made sense.