Use Of Drugs For Magickal Purposes, questions Options

What are your opinions on it? Does the drug induced state help/hinder your grasp on magick, or both? I've thought about if it would alter your ability to grasp energy, yet at the same time, could it help you become more aware of the surroundings, or your self-conscious? So what are the opinions, or facts on this subject?

i have experimented with drugs and magick.
Its tricky buisiness.

In one end, drugs can induce or enhance magickal experiences.
On the other end, drugs can bring you furhter away from what you seek. Especially after they stop working.
Marihuana for instance can bring me a zen like state when i'm on it, however, if i use to much in a short time i have noticed that when sober i tend to be farther from this zen
state than normal. This is something i am still experiencing with, so i'm not sure if it is really so or just due to certain circumstances.

Psychedelics are another thing. I took hawaian baby woodrose seeds, and i took some mushrooms.
Both trips where deeply spiritual and rewarding. But i am not certain at all if the spiritual side stays with you after the trip.
I did not notice any important changes in my life after these trips, the few days after where spiritual days in a good state of mind, but it just went away.

Even more, it seems that by using drugs you get to see things you shouldn't see yet.
The danger exists, in after achieving a zen like state on psychedelics or marihuana, you remember what that felt like. And thus your current practise of zen or enlightenment or whatever you perform magick for, gets oriented to achieving that state of mind again. By doing this you will torture yourself by constantly hanging this goal before you. You will also never achieve the goal this way, becouse you stop going step by step towards the end, you try to reach the end without the path. And this is impossible.


In the end it is your choice, i am not against it either. I will continue to use these drugs for various magickal purposes.
However, be aware of the dangers. Do not let the drug use you. And do not attach any value to these drugs. Do not worship the drug.

Do anabolic steroids help or hinder your grasp on body building?

Whoa, whoa.

Let me list, from experience, some of the pros and cons of involving drugs in magick. Many people are, naturally, prejudiced against them because of the bad light that SOCIETY has cast on drug use, despite the fact that the most ancient and powerful seers and sorcerers in the past have used for counteless millenia all manner of drugs during their magickal experiments.

Pros: A drug will take you into an altered state of mind, and keep you there. you don't have to do any work, and you can focus on the magickal task at hand. Spiritually, each drug has a specific lesson to teach you, which can alter your lifestyle, the way you view reality, and allow you to confront aspects of your psyche previously hidden from your conscious mind.

cons: each altered state is specific to a task, and once there, you must stay there until its over. during a drug trip, you are not in control, the spirit of the drug is, and you must rely on the drug for your protection. Each drug loosens your energy sytem so that it can atain a different 'posture', and that posture will persist unti lthe experience is over. Depending on your emotional state, this can be a problem, so one of the major cons to useing drugs for magick is that you have little emotional control - ultimately you should clear out all emotional 'baggage' before you even attempt magick but these days no one worries about that sort of thing, we're a culture of instant gratification. In altered states, these emotions will affect you regardless of your preconceived notions of emotional control, unless you really have cleared those issues out.

Drugs are an initiatory tool that can jumpstart your consciousness in ways that people who have never and will never do any drug can't imagine. Our society teaches us that drugs are always bad, regardless of the situation, because the populace, and especially the people in charge, fear the confidence and willpower that comes with expanded consciousness.

However, they are like training wheels. When they open up a door for you, they show you where that path is. If you pay close attention, and observe every minute detail during a drug experience, you will be able to return to that door and open it yourself, with practice. Over time, you will learn to assume those 'postures' I mentioned, and at that point you will be able to go into the same experience, but with control and under your own power. What would take a 'drug free' practitioner years upon years of meditation, practice, and observation, will take you six months to fully understand and explore, if you are diligent.

Everything in existence is there for a reason, the physical manifestations we observe and interact with normally, are illusions - they are representations of information and energetic phenomenon which we perceive as a physical reality in order to experience, this is the nature of incarnation and why we do it in the first place.

Always, if you do choose to partake, do so with responsibility. Do not over indulge, do not use them for fun (unless spiritual developement is fun, or the spirit invites you to relax and enjoy yourself, which some will and others will not) and of course, always always do your research. Erowid.com is an excellent site, and there are dozens of books on the subject. Understand what is happening to your body as well as your mind. Knowledge is power - arm yourself.

peace

Erowid is one of my favorite sites to visit because of its huge informal selection. I had an amazing spiritual experience while trying DXM, which me and a buddy had. I could see aura without any type of concentration, and I could push myself from trance to conscious state within a blink of an eye. Yet as it has been stated, it is not quite as simple when the usage is worn away, but it gives that concept and goal to reach at some point in time.

The main problem with drugs is that they act like short cuts. You said it yourself you didn't even need to concentrate to see auras. Which is precisely a big con to using drugs for magickal goals. I would only suggest the use of any mind altering substances in magick if the practitioner has already had plenty of experience without drugs or is using under the guidance of somebody who is advanced with magick and knows the proper procedure. Another issue with drugs is that one needs to have a real understanding of its affects and what doses to take to induce certain states of mind. On top of that there are many drugs that are addictive and otherwise unhealthy to use repeatedly. The main reason why I say a person be advanced prior to mixing drugs with magick is because if one already knows what to expect they are not as easily suggestive to stimuli. Sometimes people claim to have spiritual experiences when in reality its just in their head. With the execption of stuff like alcohol, pot, mushrooms, x and lsd I don't advocate or condone the use of drugs mixed with magick unless the practioner knows what they are doing. And even then the drugs listed should be used with caution and in moderation. Pot, x and lsd can all be laced. x and lsd sold to people on the streets is many times not really the drug they are suppose to be. And mushrooms can be some poisonous variety some dude pulled from his backyard.

If one insists on experimenting with drugs always know what drug(s) will be involved and always use lower doses to start and gradually increase the amount until the desired high is induced. For example, lsd, try one hit of acid and see how it affects you and after an hour possibly try another, depending on how you feel. In all honesty in the case of acid, unless you use it often, if two hits doesn't make you have an intense trip your acid is either bunk or you're using something else that's being pushed off as lsd, dxm is often sold off as lsd. Make sure that you know you can stay at a place long enough for the affects to wear off and make sure you know who you are taking the drugs with. It is also wise to not take drugs alone and not with strangers either.

Drug experimentation is not the problem. That in itself can be a spiritual expierence. The problem is that many novices may see drugs as a quick way to induce advance practices and all too often novices may have little understanding of a drugs affects or proper dosage let alone understand the states of mind they've induced. This can lead to a high degre of suggestability where one tricks themself into doing things or believing things they otherwise wouldn't. Then there are some who point to spirituallity as an excuse to get high. My main concern with drugs is that they can be habbit forming, physiologically and psychologically. In reality one can do serious harm to themself and enough damage may affect one's ability to preform magick feats without the use of drugs, especially if one has an addictive personallity.

I know I might come across as preachy and don't be confused I believe people will do what they want regardless and I think thats the way it should be--its called freewill. But I cannot understate the level of caution one should take if they plan on using drugs for any reason.

I constantly refer back to erowid.com for medical references and reports, correct dosages, side affects, ect. I only experiment with recreationally safe drugs to expand my mind, and my train of thought. The thing is though, I also like to sense the magickal aspect while induced with these drugs, and I rarely practice my magickall purposes while under the influence of them (marijuana being the only one i've tried). I took a certain over-the-counter drug (which I won't name, because I don't want to encourage the use of it) for my DXM trip, and I checked the active ingredients in it for other chemicals that were used, and it was only dextromorthopan, so I moderated my doses with a buddy, and sat around with two other good friends while under it. I am not very knowledgable on the concept of how drugs are being used for these purposes, but the roots of my questions have come from the history of Native Americans using peyote, marijuana, ect. to reach their "spirit world" and to see connections of how/and if it was being used for that purpose today.

I only experiment with recreationally safe drugs to expand my mind, and my train of thought.

Sorry I just can't possibly consider dxm a "safe" drug. Its considered an opioid. Unless you're just taking cough or cold medicine (thats what dxm is) the more purer forms found on the streets can be fatal. The stuff found in the over the counter pills, (HydroChloride pills, if I remember correctly) is like 5 mg of dxm and so many mgs of other stuff that keep it potent and prevents it from being released into your body all at once. It also has a tendency to NOT mix well with other drugs; alcohol and opiates can have more intense affect if mixed with dxm. Even antidepressants mixed with dxm can kill in some cases.

I don't really care that you use drugs. You could use heroine for all I care. But don't be telling people its safe to use opioids as recreational drugs. I just get put off when people use the word "safe" with drugs. Regardless if what you took was over the counter or not there are risks just the same as anything else. I'd imagine that if what you took was over the counter you probably had to take a pretty big dose to get any kind of affective "high".

The thing is though, I also like to sense the magickal aspect while induced with these drugs, and I rarely practice my magickall purposes while under the influence of them (marijuana being the only one i've tried). I took a certain over-the-counter drug (which I won't name, because I don't want to encourage the use of it) for my DXM trip, and I checked the active ingredients in it for other chemicals that were used, and it was only dextromorthopan, so I moderated my doses with a buddy, and sat around with two other good friends while under it.

Thats what drugs do they alter people's perceptions in ways that seem "magickal". Hell man I remember when I used to smoke meth years ago I thought I could do anything, litterally. But unless you're taking it as apart of a serious ritual or practice the magickal feeling is fake. Its the drug thats tricking your mind to believe in the magickal state. Drugs and magick only mix if you're already well aware of the false sense of reality created by drugs and can use that to create real magick. Seems like a contradiction but the purpose of using drugs and magick is to induce a trance to raise energy or temporarily break down the barriers of perception (like journyes into the spirit world). But in order to properly use the drugs in this manner one would already have been practicing their craft. And certain drugs in my opinion simply cloud one's judgement too much to really be used safely.

Using drugs recreationally can lead indirectly to magickal experiences. But not directly, then the intention changes from recreational uses to magickal uses.

I am not very knowledgable on the concept of how drugs are being used for these purposes, but the roots of my questions have come from the history of Native Americans using peyote, marijuana, ect. to reach their "spirit world" and to see connections of how/and if it was being used for that purpose today.

The medicine men can reach the spirit world without the use of drugs. Some believe our world is theirs we just can't percieve it unless in an altered state of mind. The purpose of the drugs is to surrender one's will to their God(s). They believe they are protected (assuming they did the ritual properly). The problem is if you haven't experienced deep trance before using powerful drugs you could end up seriously hurting yourself.

Now I certainly am not against the use of recreational drug use or even mixing drugs with magick. But either road requires serious caution, knowledge and possibly guidance.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Nov 1 2006, 06:21 PM

I used it from an over-the-counter medicine and established the dosage amount with was stated on erowid for a normal dosage, which I made sure of, before trying it. Also I checked the active and inactive drugs in the medicine to establish the side affects, an in. I met someone a few years back who would tak ethem, which unhealthy active drugs in them, also I checked upon the medical record of deaths from the drug, and to date there were, none, so I considered it a recreational drug. It is not my plan to push any younger members, or anyone, on the forum for drug use, just trying to find the experiences and connections with the drug compared to ancient/older rituals and techniques. Also, your last paragraph does help out quite a bit with what my questions were directed towards.

Hereisthe short answer from a modern day Hunter S Thompson (ex). Drugs are there to be used to open doors for people who cant open them themselves. Once these doors have been opened it is most highly recommended that the task of learning to open these doors without the use of drugs begins. Almost noone who relies on drugs to open doors learns how to close them. Closing doors (banishing, grounding, earthing, coming down) is of the utmost importance for those who have not attained a certain level of understanding - otherwise confusion and madness can set in - this is usually the result of people misinterpreting feelings, vibrations, visions, messages. Drugs are like magickal shock therapy. They can not be used continuously by those who have not attained a certain level of capability. Those who have reached that level of capability usually dont need and so dont use drugs - except on rare occasions for mammoth tasks - even then it is not unless it is deemed absolutely necessary. Read "all" the Carlos Castaneda books if you plan on using drugs spiritually. Always be aware of your goal and stop using drugs when they are no longer beneficial. If you know anything about the Qabalah you will know that drugs only take you to yesod. This is only the first sephiroth above malkuth. This is the plane that the hindus termed "maya" or "illusion". This is the astral plane of symbols. It is very easy to become arrogant and get caught up in the world of symbols; without ascending to a deeper understanding and capability of working with the things they symbolise. Many people who have some experience of travelling through this sphere believe themselves to be adepts. This drug induced plane is only the very first step on the path of magick. Lingering here beyond the point at which you have gained all you can form this sphere is harmfull and can be potentially dangerous in terms of mental health. Once you have mastered yesod you must move up or back - do not linger here. This may sound alarmist, but anyone who tells you different is no "master" and is just a dreamer, and an egoist. Also read "heaven and hell" by aldous huxley and his "the doors of perception". Im sorry to repeat myself but drugs are just the baby steps. I would suggest that if you can use other means (meditation, visualisation, breathing) to get to the same place then you are taking a step backwards to then start using drugs - after you have used drugs you will then need to use these techniques anyway - and longterm druguse hampers your ability to use these techniques effectively.

I have taken more lsd than you have seen in your life in one weekend. I lived in a house where we took goldtops everyday for three months. I speak from exerience. These are not the theoretical ramblings of some kid whos read a few books. I have taken a shitload of drugs in my time. I "know" from a wealth of "real life" experience the pros and cons of working with drugs and of working without them.

Dont listen to someone who did a ritual once on lsd or takesd ecstacy on the weekends. Listen to someone who took mushrooms (goldtops) every day for three months with a group of spiritually inclined experimenters (this is no exaggeration). Listen to someone who has fasted for a week and performed work. Listen to someone who has performed work when completely healthy well fed and exercised. This sounds arrogant and it is and i say it with great conviction from a place of experience and knowledge.

READ THIS POST

This post has been edited by extinctionspasm: Nov 1 2006, 09:43 PM

If you know anything about the Qabalah you will know that drugs only take you to yesod. This is only the first sephiroth above malkuth. This is the plane that the hindus termed "maya" or "illusion". This is the astral plane of symbols. It is very easy to become arrogant and get caught up in the world of symbols; without ascending to a deeper understanding and capability of working with the things they symbolise.

I find your post very intriguing and rather enlightened, but I am somewhat curious about your statement relating drug experiences to yesod. I do feel intuitively that what you are saying is largely true, but it seems to be a bit of a generalization. To say ALL drug experiences are merely within the realm of Yesod seems misleading. I think that Yesod works as the normal center of reference during a drug experience, but that one is capable of reaching into the other spheres (coupled with other techinques-meditative, visualization, etc.). This is like Malkuth being used as the reference point and ground for outward/inward explorations of the spheres by normal techniques. Admittedly, this does indeed prove to be potentially dangerous for individuals without a certain degree of grounding (as you mentioned before) because of Yesod's shadowy nature. BUT, I do feel that it is conceivable to more easily reach Tiphareth type or POSSIBLY even higher levels of awareness with the aid of certain psychotropics. What I find interesting though from a theoretical standpoint is their ability to invoke aspects of higher spheres into beings (stimulants and other certain hyper-activity drugs drawing from Geburah, or some pacifying drugs drawing from Chesed), although I doubt that they are very effective for reaching the spheres themselves. Anyway, I'd enjoy hearing any more opinions on the subject. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by kairos: Nov 3 2006, 01:32 PM

There is so much to this topic, and without intending to sound ambiguous or esoteric or diplomatic or evasive, i would like to say that on the point regarding yesod i think it would be wise for anyone to take both our peices of "theory" (which is all it will be to someone experimenting for their first times) into account, and surrender to the law of paradox wherein to a certain extent both of our seemingly contradicting points of view contribute to the larger picture of truth. For an idea of where these polar points of view may be assimilated I would suggest people look to the last two sentences of kairos's post. Thesis - antithesis - synthesis. I think kairos has touched on the most poignant point of this discussion though, and it is good to have somebody advocating for a less extreme view point than my own. Better as a student to risk being swamped by an overabundance of information from which to draw, than to be restricted into relying on too few sources to be able to develop a truly balanced direction from which to proceed. The only two points i would like to add though is that 1. as kairos and i have highlighted, yesod is in a way the entrance hall to the world of spirit, it is simultaneously the poison and the remedy; it is the mushroom from alice in wonderland; eat the right amount and you shall fit through the door, eat too much and you may never escape (i am sorry if this sounds extreme - but we do not complain when we read tv manuals and they say "warning - electricity kills").... point 2. is that in any experimentations with drugs; remember that you have a body and that drugs damage your body; the damage if it is not too great can be reversed but this takes care and effort. Remember excess. Dont go too far - you might say whats this guy talking about he claims to have taken mushies everyday for three months and so on - yes the human body mind and spirit can be pushed to extremes that most woud deem unimaginible, and the results can be most rewarding - but three months to one can be as effective as three days or hours to another - learn your limits and listen to your body and mind and spirit - with chemicals that can very easily stop your heart beating - if you are unsure, then move on the side of caution. Rahdy rahdy rah - you know what i mean!!!!

There are initiations that use drugs, and I think they are effective. It creates the personality anew and detaches you from the old you, in the way that an initiation that doesn't use drugs does in a much slower and equally effective. The shamans used drugs extensively, and they were sort of the foundation of all this stuff. As for drugs doing workings, I don't usually do it, maybe a little wine, maybe some absinthe when I'm doing automatic writing. I've got to watch this stuff though, I could end up really crazy. I try to moderate on the side of asceticism, and don't always succeed.

This post has been edited by sithhunter: Nov 6 2006, 12:45 AM

forgive me if i go through digging up a few retired threads over the next few days/weeks, i've just started having a good look at the great info here.

essentially i agree with what Vagrant Dreamer has posted (infact, almost everything you've posted that i've read resonates extremely well with me, so i'll take this opportunity to thank you, you are an inspiration!), there are most definitely pros and cons just as there are for most practices. just a few more things i would like to add to the discussion....

firstly i'd like to address the idea that drugs only take you to the astral plane of symbols and illusion, as this seems to be a fairly common thought among some people and i understand why. but to me it would seem naive for us to assume that the cultures who still use substances such as ayahuasca for healing, divination, etc are not working with the genuine magickal forces just because they use plants in their work.

i'm not completely familiar with the Qabalah but based on my limited understanding and the positioning of Yesod, i'd probably be inclined to say that it may act as a portal to the higher dimensions, through which we can pass with the right drug/ritual and INTENT.

and this is where i feel the pivot point is - intent. just as intent is the backbone of magick, the same principles are applied in shamanism. to me taking a handful of mushrooms just to get high is like using an effective ritual to invoke a great spirit for the purpose of making you feel good, without the grounding and protective elements - my guess is you wont get away with that too many times.

as VD stated earlier, drugs induce the magickal trance state with very little effort on your part. this is the reason they are such effective tools but also why there's room for danger. most magickal practices require training, patience, persistence, devotion, etc to access these states which encourages (or even requires) the practitioner to be solidly grounded and in control of their life first. being able to bypass this process and get results can be very convenient and tempting, but you can literally find yourself 'out of your league' in terms of what you are confronted with, which can wreak havoc on all layers of your being. being able to induce a trance is one thing, but to use it is another. this is the difference between a real shaman and some kid with an endless supply of mushrooms; a shaman trains, is patient, persistent and devoted, just like any other successful energy worker. there are good tools, but really there's still no shortcuts in the end.

Delusion is definitely another key obstacle, however i don't see this as a problem exclusively with drug use. i dont know many occultists, but i have met a couple that i'm sure were losing the plot, as i'm sure some of you may have met too. it may be more likely to occur through drug use, but not due to the drug itself but again because many drug users bypass all the ground work which is required for the effective integration of the experience. there's trickster entities out there, and ground work helps you to know how to deal with them. i think the stigma attached to drugs exaggerates this issue a bit too; our culture defines the experience as a 'hallucination' and nothing more, so even if you feel you've been in direct communion with god, unless you've shed a good deal of conditioning it can play on your mind as to whether that was genuine or not. really this comes down again to a lack of context from which to understand the experience.

i can understand the concern of some that you can become dependent on the substance to induce trance and work magick. but if the substance is safe and you use it responsibly, does it really matter whether you use rituals or substances or both if the end result is the same? ultimately the goal could be to have access to all states through the use of the mind only, but no matter what path you choose this would be the result of a lifetime of dedication, and in the mean time we just have to use the tools available to us to the best of our ability. some will choose magick, some will choose shamanism, some will choose to fast and meditate for 5 years in solitude. i don't believe there is one right path, and all have their pros and cons

now i've gotta bring this rant to a close at some point, so why not now...

psychedelic drugs have been incredibly valuable to my spiritual development and i can't imagine how my life would have been without them. they've helped me to understand myself and appreciate life to the fullest, they've shown me the true power of ritual, intent and the reality of magickal energy, however i am aware that they aren't the panacea to all earthly problems and to continue to use them effectively requires just as much hard work as any other discipline. essentially this is why i am here now; i know what it's like to dance with delusion, i know there's no place for mucking around in the psychicsphere, i don't have my own Don Juan and so i'm trying to integrate as much knowledge as i can from all cultures in order to give me the most balanced understanding. if i can combine techniques from across the board and they are effective, i'll use them. while soul searching, i am open to the possibility that i may find other methods which are more effective than the use of drugs, that would be great. but i'm also open to the possibility that this is the path for me, and i may need to take a trip to the Amazon for some more experienced guidance at some stage.

anyway, thanks for everyone's contributions so far and i welcome more ideas, discussion and rebuttal! this topic is very relevant to me and the crossroads im sitting at currently.

peace
CosmicInferno

forgive me if i go through digging up a few retired threads over the next few days/weeks, i've just started having a good look at the great info here.

essentially i agree with what Vagrant Dreamer has posted (infact, almost everything you've posted that i've read resonates extremely well with me, so i'll take this opportunity to thank you, you are an inspiration!), there are most definitely pros and cons just as there are for most practices. just a few more things i would like to add to the discussion....

firstly i'd like to address the idea that drugs only take you to the astral plane of symbols and illusion, as this seems to be a fairly common thought among some people and i understand why. but to me it would seem naive for us to assume that the cultures who still use substances such as ayahuasca for healing, divination, etc are not working with the genuine magickal forces just because they use plants in their work.

i'm not completely familiar with the Qabalah but based on my limited understanding and the positioning of Yesod, i'd probably be inclined to say that it may act as a portal to the higher dimensions, through which we can pass with the right drug/ritual and INTENT.

and this is where i feel the pivot point is - intent. just as intent is the backbone of magick, the same principles are applied in shamanism. to me taking a handful of mushrooms just to get high is like using an effective ritual to invoke a great spirit for the purpose of making you feel good, without the grounding and protective elements - my guess is you wont get away with that too many times.

as VD stated earlier, drugs induce the magickal trance state with very little effort on your part. this is the reason they are such effective tools but also why there's room for danger. most magickal practices require training, patience, persistence, devotion, etc to access these states which encourages (or even requires) the practitioner to be solidly grounded and in control of their life first. being able to bypass this process and get results can be very convenient and tempting, but you can literally find yourself 'out of your league' in terms of what you are confronted with, which can wreak havoc on all layers of your being. being able to induce a trance is one thing, but to use it is another. this is the difference between a real shaman and some kid with an endless supply of mushrooms; a shaman trains, is patient, persistent and devoted, just like any other successful energy worker. there are good tools, but really there's still no shortcuts in the end.

Delusion is definitely another key obstacle, however i don't see this as a problem exclusively with drug use. i dont know many occultists, but i have met a couple that i'm sure were losing the plot, as i'm sure some of you may have met too. it may be more likely to occur through drug use, but not due to the drug itself but again because many drug users bypass all the ground work which is required for the effective integration of the experience. there's trickster entities out there, and ground work helps you to know how to deal with them. i think the stigma attached to drugs exaggerates this issue a bit too; our culture defines the experience as a 'hallucination' and nothing more, so even if you feel you've been in direct communion with god, unless you've shed a good deal of conditioning it can play on your mind as to whether that was genuine or not. really this comes down again to a lack of context from which to understand the experience.

i can understand the concern of some that you can become dependent on the substance to induce trance and work magick. but if the substance is safe and you use it responsibly, does it really matter whether you use rituals or substances or both if the end result is the same? ultimately the goal could be to have access to all states through the use of the mind only, but no matter what path you choose this would be the result of a lifetime of dedication, and in the mean time we just have to use the tools available to us to the best of our ability. some will choose magick, some will choose shamanism, some will choose to fast and meditate for 5 years in solitude. i don't believe there is one right path, and all have their pros and cons

now i've gotta bring this rant to a close at some point, so why not now...

psychedelic drugs have been incredibly valuable to my spiritual development and i can't imagine how my life would have been without them. they've helped me to understand myself and appreciate life to the fullest, they've shown me the true power of ritual, intent and the reality of magickal energy, however i am aware that they aren't the panacea to all earthly problems and to continue to use them effectively requires just as much hard work as any other discipline. essentially this is why i am here now; i know what it's like to dance with delusion, i know there's no place for mucking around in the psychicsphere, i don't have my own Don Juan and so i'm trying to integrate as much knowledge as i can from all cultures in order to give me the most balanced understanding. if i can combine techniques from across the board and they are effective, i'll use them. while soul searching, i am open to the possibility that i may find other methods which are more effective than the use of drugs, that would be great. but i'm also open to the possibility that this is the path for me, and i may need to take a trip to the Amazon for some more experienced guidance at some stage.

anyway, thanks for everyone's contributions so far and i welcome more ideas, discussion and rebuttal! this topic is very relevant to me and the crossroads im sitting at currently.

peace
CosmicInferno

I have had problems with this because i am very habitual in nature, being mildy autistic it makes these sort of things happen all the time.

The problem i had was that i became so engrossed in the visions i was seeing i completely stopped caring about the real world anymore. As a result i lost my job a lot of my friends and the respect of my parents. The drug in question is probably one of the stupidest things you can ever do, i became addicted to taking gas because it induces a very heavy form of hallucination and gives out of body experiences almost every time.

Though because of the sheer quantity of use and the enforced solitude that came with it what once started out as nice colourful visions of peaceful and wonderful places soon became horrific scenes of death and giant monstrous spiders attempting to devour me. Still i am not a squeemish person and so after steeling myself i carried on regardless starting to try and drive back these bad thoughts with sealing sigils for each and every one that came. However this was to no avail, for each one i sealed another took its place and so on, still to this day i have difficulty shedding the visions of them from my mind.

i think that drugs are ok for a one of just to see how far they can push you, but i urge you not to make it a common occurence in your life. It pretty muched ruined mine and its taken me three years and i still am not fully recovered and i may never be.

but this is the risk of it

was it worth it though.........to me yes because it gave me something more than reality to see, a whole new existence but not one i would recommend.

Personally I wouldn't use drugs for magical purposes, although I have friends who have. Why I don't is partially because I'm a recovering alcoholic and people like me even if they even use marijuana often fall off the wagon. But, the more important reason is because I can do the same thing without drugs simply using meditational techniques. I view the use of drugs as something that a beginner might do. It has been mentioned as being used in initiations, which is where it seems most suited.
I should mention a cautionary tale here. I used to know one High Priest who was thrown out of his own coven and shunned by the community. He gave a group of initiates some hallucinagens during their initiation and didn't tell them. Some of them freaked out or had bad trips during the initiation. It was obvious that they had been slipped something, and it was tracked to the HP. If the knew about it beforehand and had consented that would have been a different situation, but he was judged as having behaved improperly by the coven elders and was banished. That is the only time I've heard of a High Priest turfed out of the coven. And as mentioned, he was also shunned by the local magical community.

Drugs…and their use in Magick. Is a very interesting topic, that I am thinking about experimenting again with after many years.

In my experience, drugs are like the Master tour of certain realms, you are guided sometimes allowed to explore a bit, but you need to take it as a tour. If you explore unguided, you do not have access to all your facilities, you are easy prey.

I have never successfully worked Magick while on drugs, beyond the expanded understanding and perceptions they can provide. I am not sure it would be wise for me to try to work anything while on drugs. But I have had teachings and experiences with them that where truly profound, not on the scale of religious, but still profound.

On the flip side, because of the Taboo with drugs. You are usually dealing with some pretty idiotic and unenlightened people when it comes to acquisition. As such it is probable that you will not get precisely what you are wanting to get.

A shared drug experience with Magickal practitioners, or magically aware people can be very rewarding.

The other biggie, is intent. Know why you are doing it, and if you are using it for anything other then your magickal path, or just as entertainment…really look at it, hell really look at it every time.

It can quickly become escapism, and living in that reality becomes more attractive then material plane realities very quickly for many.

if you mean like the use of peyote, mooshrooms, and yage, which is like peyote in south america, using any of this substances as a shamanic enhancer of the dream state, Im totally ok with it....but like I said only to be used amongst the wise ones that really know how to used them,they're part of what a true shaman is suppose to do.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hands.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/respect.gif)

But how is one really supposed to use them for the first time if they really need to know what they are doing?

Also peyote and yage (more commonly known as caapi) are not equivalents, San Pedro is the South American equivalent to peyote as far as active ingredients go. I do not know as far as planes of existence attained though as I have not used Peyote or yage/Caapi. San Pedro I know as a much more social experience then most similar drugs, but that is in part because of the preparation.

I agree totally with the sentiment, that wise ones should only use it. I am more practical in the knowledge that if any experience like this should take place it should be before the age of 21 or 22 (few are wise by this age) for the first time, if not it is preferable that some highly altered state be attained before getting there by artificial means.

The reason I say this is because it can be a hard thing for the brain to accept, and many of these drugs are like an express way ticket to a plane of existence. People who are not open to it can have very bad experiences just trying to internalize or make sense of the experience that they are suddenly in the midst of with no way out but to ride it out.

I also feel you should really inform yourself before trying anything, but that is not always possible (especially if you are in the midst of the right environment). However I could also argue that with the internet…there is no reason to not be well informed. Two to three hours of research on a few reputable sites will inform you quite a bit.

But how is one really supposed to use them for the first time if they really need to know what they are doing?

Also peyote and yage (more commonly known as caapi) are not equivalents, San Pedro is the South American equivalent to peyote as far as active ingredients go. I do not know as far as planes of existence attained though as I have not used Peyote or yage/Caapi. San Pedro I know as a much more social experience then most similar drugs, but that is in part because of the preparation.

I agree totally with the sentiment, that wise ones should only use it. I am more practical in the knowledge that if any experience like this should take place it should be before the age of 21 or 22 (few are wise by this age) for the first time, if not it is preferable that some highly altered state be attained before getting there by artificial means.

The reason I say this is because it can be a hard thing for the brain to accept, and many of these drugs are like an express way ticket to a plane of existence. People who are not open to it can have very bad experiences just trying to internalize or make sense of the experience that they are suddenly in the midst of with no way out but to ride it out.

I also feel you should really inform yourself before trying anything, but that is not always possible (especially if you are in the midst of the right environment). However I could also argue that with the internet…there is no reason to not be well informed. Two to three hours of research on a few reputable sites will inform you quite a bit.

well, I wish to thank you for correcting my error, AND also thank you for your opinion, Im glad sombody actually thinks that handling this substances is somthing of great responsability...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clapping.gif)

Hereisthe short answer from a modern day Hunter S Thompson (ex). Drugs are there to be used to open doors for people who cant open them themselves. Once these doors have been opened it is most highly recommended that the task of learning to open these doors without the use of drugs begins. Almost noone who relies on drugs to open doors learns how to close them. Closing doors (banishing, grounding, earthing, coming down) is of the utmost importance for those who have not attained a certain level of understanding - otherwise confusion and madness can set in - this is usually the result of people misinterpreting feelings, vibrations, visions, messages. Drugs are like magickal shock therapy. They can not be used continuously by those who have not attained a certain level of capability. Those who have reached that level of capability usually dont need and so dont use drugs - except on rare occasions for mammoth tasks - even then it is not unless it is deemed absolutely necessary. Read "all" the Carlos Castaneda books if you plan on using drugs spiritually. Always be aware of your goal and stop using drugs when they are no longer beneficial. If you know anything about the Qabalah you will know that drugs only take you to yesod. This is only the first sephiroth above malkuth. This is the plane that the hindus termed "maya" or "illusion". This is the astral plane of symbols. It is very easy to become arrogant and get caught up in the world of symbols; without ascending to a deeper understanding and capability of working with the things they symbolise. Many people who have some experience of travelling through this sphere believe themselves to be adepts. This drug induced plane is only the very first step on the path of magick. Lingering here beyond the point at which you have gained all you can form this sphere is harmfull and can be potentially dangerous in terms of mental health. Once you have mastered yesod you must move up or back - do not linger here. This may sound alarmist, but anyone who tells you different is no "master" and is just a dreamer, and an egoist. Also read "heaven and hell" by aldous huxley and his "the doors of perception". Im sorry to repeat myself but drugs are just the baby steps. I would suggest that if you can use other means (meditation, visualisation, breathing) to get to the same place then you are taking a step backwards to then start using drugs - after you have used drugs you will then need to use these techniques anyway - and longterm druguse hampers your ability to use these techniques effectively.

I have taken more lsd than you have seen in your life in one weekend. I lived in a house where we took goldtops everyday for three months. I speak from exerience. These are not the theoretical ramblings of some kid whos read a few books. I have taken a shitload of drugs in my time. I "know" from a wealth of "real life" experience the pros and cons of working with drugs and of working without them.

Dont listen to someone who did a ritual once on lsd or takesd ecstacy on the weekends. Listen to someone who took mushrooms (goldtops) every day for three months with a group of spiritually inclined experimenters (this is no exaggeration). Listen to someone who has fasted for a week and performed work. Listen to someone who has performed work when completely healthy well fed and exercised. This sounds arrogant and it is and i say it with great conviction from a place of experience and knowledge.

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i agree even though im using marijauna now for deep contemplation and reality surfing...drugs and magic can be dangerous if you ever build up Kundalini energy in your body BEWARE OF KUNDALINI SYNDROME look this up on wikpedia it is real and it is a threat to anyone who is undoing themselves and one piece of ignorance or lack of knowldge can send you over the edge and land you 2 weeks maybe longer in a mental ward because you had suicidal feelings because your spirit went away. If your doing anyof the undoing excercises from Dr Hyatt i suggest reading about Kundalini Syndrome at wikpedia so you know when it happens you will know what is happening to you. I mentioned this because drugs especially if your smoking marijauna can speed up Kundalini.

i agree even though im using marijauna now for deep contemplation and reality surfing...drugs and magic can be dangerous if you ever build up Kundalini energy in your body BEWARE OF KUNDALINI SYNDROME look this up on wikpedia it is real and it is a threat to anyone who is undoing themselves and one piece of ignorance or lack of knowldge can send you over the edge and land you 2 weeks maybe longer in a mental ward because you had suicidal feelings because your spirit went away. If your doing anyof the undoing excercises from Dr Hyatt i suggest reading about Kundalini Syndrome at wikpedia so you know when it happens you will know what is happening to you. I mentioned this because drugs especially if your smoking marijauna can speed up Kundalini.

VERY INTERSTING!!!!!! WEIRD NAME THOUGTH......

All good advice I think. There seems to be the impression that in shamanism there is a lot of drug taking, over the planet only about 10% or the traditions take Teaching plants.

They can open the door, once the door is open then you don't need the drug. It is ill advised, yes you can get those that will argue the point. I find they just use spiritual development for an excuse to take the drug. Many of the plants that they take in shamansim are powerful..... very powerful. They are taken with much respect and the plant is honored before using it. It is used with intent. I am alarmed at the use these days of these drugs for recreation, I am not supperised at the results many are having.

Pot use can greatly increase the depth of meditation, it would need to be smoked with the intent of doing meditation for it to have the desired results. Otherwise you tend to wander, more day dreaming then meditation, or what we used to call fall out (just going off somewhere for a while into nothingness with out awareness). If done correctly you can hold what you gained from you meditation but this is extremely hard. I have experimented with this a lot as I teach in Holland. I do not teach when high, I do not advocate its use however, or any drug for that matter.

I'd be the first to admit they can show you a lot about reality. I was in a ceremony that used a grass from Australia, don't know what it was. It took me to the creation and end of everything, and the restart and the end. I knew everything at once. The problem is I got stuck for 6 weeks in this cycle. I had to work and every time I would relive the cycle (god burst I call them) any one in 100 feet at least would feel it. After a while I got used to it, but I could not sleep for the 6 weeks (sleep deprivation is interesting, but no thanks). Finally a soul retrieval was done and I started to come back to this reality where I belong. It put things on the fast track, and my life changed radically, yes for the good, but I would never want to go through that again. This was 5 - 6 yrs ago. I have been into metaphysical stuff literally all my life, part due to my DNA I think, so I could handle it even though it was touch and go for a long time. Some one with less experience would have been in a padded room. I also had a lot of support from friends and Mom, there was nothing they could do but they were there.
Remember this drug was done in the proper manor, if it had not probably I'd be in the padded room. I gained a lot of understanding of everything, but I can put little of it in words. Was it worth it Yes in retrospect. Did it change my life? Most definitely. For the better? yes. Did I gain power? No, but acess to it yes
Would I want to go through it again to get that understanding? NO. Would I have gotten where I am today with out going through this most definitely, slower perhaps, I was starting to manifest the abilities before I went through this. Fast track yes, done properly. Dangerous YES, YES, YES. Had I know all of the results would I have done the ceremony ..... NO WAY.

Kids please listen:
Many are very intense (salvia for example) and you NEED a baby sitter when taking the drug. Even among the traditions that do use drugs they have baby sitters.
These plants are not for FUN. I suppose they can be, depending where they take you. Respect them, they are teachers, and they can teach. Don't respect them and they can also teach, many times about respect (not usual fun).

Though there are millions of people who will attest to mystical experiences interwoven with drug use, I have never personally heard of anyone show a practical use for drugs in magic.

The LBRP isn't a more effective banishing when stoned. Your "spell to ruin an enemy" will not be stronger because you smoked crack. There are all manner of interesting visions and beautiful insights to be gained from drugs, but they just don't help if you're interesting in doing something practical.

I have very often seen people pass off a useless drug habit with occultism as an excuse. I think this is just playing around, and can't think of many other activities where drugs make your work more effective. If these people put half the effort they put toward "mastery of drug consciousness" toward mastery of ordinary consciousness, we would likely see a lot more magicians in the world.

Though there are millions of people who will attest to mystical experiences interwoven with drug use, I have never personally heard of anyone show a practical use for drugs in magic.

The LBRP isn't a more effective banishing when stoned. Your "spell to ruin an enemy" will not be stronger because you smoked crack. There are all manner of interesting visions and beautiful insights to be gained from drugs, but they just don't help if you're interesting in doing something practical.

I have very often seen people pass off a useless drug habit with occultism as an excuse. I think this is just playing around, and can't think of many other activities where drugs make your work more effective. If these people put half the effort they put toward "mastery of drug consciousness" toward mastery of ordinary consciousness, we would likely see a lot more magicians in the world.

I like the way you think, but let me remind you that it all depends on the use of the substance, for example i use yage or ayahuaska to do what i cal dream walking, which is like meditating and also to purge myself, because yage its a powerful soul and body purger, and second let me remind you that the true ancestors of the magicians are the shamans, and shamans do experiment with natural substances, because they know the power of plants its incredible when it comes to showing you a spiritual path, but let us not confuse spirituality with a moment of fun color, plants' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif) spirits must be handled with responsability, care, love and intelligence

I agree with both of you. There are legitimate spiritual and ritual uses for natural mind altering substances. But most people don't know what they are doing. They don't have any guidance. They don't even really know what to expect. They just dive into it like its candy. That and I think many people use drugs and magick as a means to scape goat their real issues and purpetuate their own delusions. People will do back flips to try and tell you that they use for spiritual reasons when really they are just in denial that they are addicts.

And in my humble opinion I think certain drugs just don't have any real magickal uses. Crack - not a good idea. Meth? diddo. Heroine? While opium could be arguably useful, its evil cousin is not. Unless your "craft" is being a drug dealer. I also have a distain for synthetic drugs. A guy was talking about using DXM earlier and that, in most of its forms, I don't think is very productive and it can damage your brain. There is one exception with the no no towards designer drugs - MDMA. I do believe that pure MDMA can help a person have profound spiritual experiences. And I think it has medical values as well that our government has over looked. The problem with ecstacy is that its almost always cut or mixed with some other drug - especially methamphetimines but also heroin and vitamines. If MDMA were legal and it were pure, I would support its use for spiritual purposes. I would still be very skpetical about some 16 year old popping 5 pills and wigging out for 6 hours though.

All drugs should be used responsibly and while I probably already said it, I'll say it again - I don't care if people use drugs (I'd be a hipacrite if I did). What you do in the privacy of your own home, a concenting friends is nobody else's business.

Probably the worst drugs available these days are the legal ones advertised in magazines, TV, and other mass-media productions. These mood-altering drugs have reduced physicians to the level of drug-pushers in many cases, and I estimate the negative influence of this 100-billion-dollar business at far greater than those of pot or any "street" drug. I have personally witnessed far more trouble caused in people's lives from legal prescription drugs used as directed than from any other substance barring alcohol.

My particular peeve is hearing people talk about relaxant drugs taken for "anxiety." Stress is a natural and healthy reaction to danger! If you are sitting around one day and all of a sudden freak out for no apparent reason, that is an anxiety disorder; but if you are upset about expenses and social problems, your anxiety is a starting point for dealing with your troubles.

I have read a significant amount of drug literature and consider myself very familiar with the effects of a wide variety of psychotropic drugs, some from personal experience. As for spirituality and drugs, I don't buy it. Life experience in the ordinary world makes us grow as people, and the diversity of modern life allows us to have a huge variety of experiences that Peruvian shamans simply cannot enjoy. We are able to participate in all sorts of interpersonal situations, achieve individual goals, and go all over the world if we wish. To someone living their entire life in the confines of a tribe localized to 100 square miles of remote wilderness, the drug experience may be the only way to know something totally different. I have never known anyone who could truly attribute their maturity, spiritual outlook, or any other advanced insight or knowledge to something tied specifically to a drug experience. On the other hand, even a meager amount of life experience brings real and dramatic changes.

As said before, I have also never encountered someone who could realistically attribute magical success or failure to drugs. "If only I had been stoned!" is about the worst possible excuse for a failed magical action.

I suppose it really depends on what you want from magic. Strange visions? Cliche spiritual insights? A sense of personal growth measured only in terms of attitude and outlook? OK then maybe drugs will do it for you, but what is it worth to you? There are a thousand ways to attack the idea of using drugs for magic, and I'm sur emost people here can point out specific instances where drug use went horribly wrong for magicians and others too. Where are the specific instances when drugs were really useful to you (any of you) as part of magic, and more importantly what did that magic do for you?

Probably the worst drugs available these days are the legal ones advertised in magazines, TV, and other mass-media productions. These mood-altering drugs have reduced physicians to the level of drug-pushers in many cases, and I estimate the negative influence of this 100-billion-dollar business at far greater than those of pot or any "street" drug. I have personally witnessed far more trouble caused in people's lives from legal prescription drugs used as directed than from any other substance barring alcohol.

My particular peeve is hearing people talk about relaxant drugs taken for "anxiety." Stress is a natural and healthy reaction to danger! If you are sitting around one day and all of a sudden freak out for no apparent reason, that is an anxiety disorder; but if you are upset about expenses and social problems, your anxiety is a starting point for dealing with your troubles.

I have read a significant amount of drug literature and consider myself very familiar with the effects of a wide variety of psychotropic drugs, some from personal experience. As for spirituality and drugs, I don't buy it. Life experience in the ordinary world makes us grow as people, and the diversity of modern life allows us to have a huge variety of experiences that Peruvian shamans simply cannot enjoy. We are able to participate in all sorts of interpersonal situations, achieve individual goals, and go all over the world if we wish. To someone living their entire life in the confines of a tribe localized to 100 square miles of remote wilderness, the drug experience may be the only way to know something totally different. I have never known anyone who could truly attribute their maturity, spiritual outlook, or any other advanced insight or knowledge to something tied specifically to a drug experience. On the other hand, even a meager amount of life experience brings real and dramatic changes.

As said before, I have also never encountered someone who could realistically attribute magical success or failure to drugs. "If only I had been stoned!" is about the worst possible excuse for a failed magical action.

I suppose it really depends on what you want from magic. Strange visions? Cliche spiritual insights? A sense of personal growth measured only in terms of attitude and outlook? OK then maybe drugs will do it for you, but what is it worth to you? There are a thousand ways to attack the idea of using drugs for magic, and I'm sur emost people here can point out specific instances where drug use went horribly wrong for magicians and others too. Where are the specific instances when drugs were really useful to you (any of you) as part of magic, and more importantly what did that magic do for you?

well yage has not been considered a drug the way any of those chemical poisons and even maruhuana is, yage its trully a soul purger, plus the only person who could prepare the brevage from this sacred plant must be a certified kofan, inga, sibundoy or any other taita or shaman, certified by the south american governments, plus it can not me drunk any day, must be a day lined with cosmic change or a very important tribal date, what it does to you its show you the reason for any illment or anithing thats affecting your spiritual or mental state trought visions..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

Probably the worst drugs available these days are the legal ones advertised in magazines, TV, and other mass-media productions. These mood-altering drugs have reduced physicians to the level of drug-pushers in many cases, and I estimate the negative influence of this 100-billion-dollar business at far greater than those of pot or any "street" drug. I have personally witnessed far more trouble caused in people's lives from legal prescription drugs used as directed than from any other substance barring alcohol.

What gets to me are all those "male enhancement" pills and creams that are not even FDA regulated. The Canadian version of the FDA recently banned one of these so called "enhancement" drugs because it contained a chemical that had a lot of adverse side affects. I think it was called euphoria or something I don't even remember. But what stuck out in my mind was the fact that the Canadians were able and willing to ban a potentially dangerous product, yet our own FDA has yet to follow suit. Apparently the FDA doesn't ban such products until they've been linked to being the direct cause of people dying.

Ummm... but about perscription drugs messing with people's lives more than the illegal stuff? Ever been in a crack house? I mean I see your point and I agree that perscription pills often cause more problems than they solve, but I have seen some dark places in my day. And don't get me wrong there are certainly a lot of addicts who are popping pills like oxycotin or xannax or name your poison. But if you go to any general rehab center, the majority of addicts there will addicted to either alcohol or street drugs. I do believe drugs like crack and heroin are far more dangerous than most perscription pills. Mainly because those and other drugs are often cut with something even more dangerous than the drugs themselves. None the less I've seen otherwise decent people turn into complete zombies (or worse) because they got hooked on meth or some other drug. And again there are certainly those who get addicted to legal or perscription drugs.

My particular peeve is hearing people talk about relaxant drugs taken for "anxiety." Stress is a natural and healthy reaction to danger! If you are sitting around one day and all of a sudden freak out for no apparent reason, that is an anxiety disorder; but if you are upset about expenses and social problems, your anxiety is a starting point for dealing with your troubles.

The problem is that most of the people who get psychotropic and anti-psychotic drugs get them from a regular doctor who is not a psychologists or a psychiatrist. And even then, some psychiatrist treat mild mood disorders by just handing out pills. I don't know if they still get kick backs for selling certain perscriptions but when I was younger doctors did get incentives for that. Part of why they do this is because its easier and less time consuming to write a perscription rather than make a person go through therapy and actually deal with what's eating them. And in institutions, people who are mentally ill are often times just warehoused and doped up to the eye balls until their brain shrinks to the point where they could no longer harm a fly, let alone ever live a completely independent life. - thats probably an over statement but its the impression I get.

But as a psychologist I can say that in the cases of severe mood disorders (anxiety, mania, depression, bi-polar disorder and their many other variations) that drugs can help. However treating any severe mental disorder consists of two parts; 1/3 drug therapy, 2/3 intensive personal therapy (congnitive, behavioral etc). And yet on the other hand poorer countries that do not have access to such drugs seem to deal with their mentally ill in ways that are effective without the drugs. In fact in some countries the rates of institutionalized schizophrenics is lower there than in America. This difference is attributed to how those poorer countries treat schizophrenics. In my opinion in the case of the mentally ill, drugs should only be used as a last resort.

I have read a significant amount of drug literature and consider myself very familiar with the effects of a wide variety of psychotropic drugs, some from personal experience. As for spirituality and drugs, I don't buy it. Life experience in the ordinary world makes us grow as people, and the diversity of modern life allows us to have a huge variety of experiences that Peruvian shamans simply cannot enjoy. We are able to participate in all sorts of interpersonal situations, achieve individual goals, and go all over the world if we wish.

Without being a Peruvian Shaman myself I would not be so quick to judge. I have no idea what they or some other tribal shaman has experienced through the use of mind altering drugs. I am certain though that they use such drugs in ways that are consistent with their religion and their spiritual beliefs. And I would never even attempt to deprive someone of their traditions. Nor would I believe myself better than them. That and some people even here in America are at a disadvantage to enjoy such goals and aspirations compared to other more fortunate folks.

To someone living their entire life in the confines of a tribe localized to 100 square miles of remote wilderness, the drug experience may be the only way to know something totally different. I have never known anyone who could truly attribute their maturity, spiritual outlook, or any other advanced insight or knowledge to something tied specifically to a drug experience. On the other hand, even a meager amount of life experience brings real and dramatic changes.

I don't think all shaman are as isolated from the world as you might think. While there are deffinately some "remote" shaman who really only do know that 100 square miles of wilderness, I'm sure there are others just as aware, if not more so, of the world around them as you or I. Again I wouldn't be so quick to judge. That is just me.

As said before, I have also never encountered someone who could realistically attribute magical success or failure to drugs. "If only I had been stoned!" is about the worst possible excuse for a failed magical action.

Thats like saying if only had one more lotto ticket I might have won. Of course nobody in the right mind is going to say "if only I had been stoned".

I suppose it really depends on what you want from magic. Strange visions? Cliche spiritual insights? A sense of personal growth measured only in terms of attitude and outlook? OK then maybe drugs will do it for you, but what is it worth to you?

If you dumb it down like that then you're right using drugs for magickal or spiritual gains doesn't seem to logical. But if you take away that stereotypical attitude that seeing drugs only negative then who are you to judge? If you've never had any successful or even unsuccessful experiences with drugs and magick - maybe because you never tried, then how can you say that drugs cannot aid a person in achieving magick oriented goals? If drugs did not work at all, ever in history, for anybody - then why have people from just about ever major culture around the world used drugs for thousands of years?

There are a thousand ways to attack the idea of using drugs for magic, and I'm sur emost people here can point out specific instances where drug use went horribly wrong for magicians and others too. Where are the specific instances when drugs were really useful to you (any of you) as part of magic, and more importantly what did that magic do for you?

I'm sure in regards towards drugs and magick that many of those who took on a serious attitude and followed traditional guidlines would report success. Sometimes the drug experience itself is not the end result. Sometimes its what someone learns or experiences afterwards that is the real deal.

Bottom line is yes some immature teen sitting in his basement with a tina of meth tweaking his brains out, probably is not going to have a productive experience - not that they won't but most likely they will not. On the other hand if someone uses responsibility, knowledge and guidance then drugs are no more or less of a tool in magick than an athame. That said some tools work better for some than they do for others.

What are your opinions on it? Does the drug induced state help/hinder your grasp on magick, or both? I've thought about if it would alter your ability to grasp energy, yet at the same time, could it help you become more aware of the surroundings, or your self-conscious? So what are the opinions, or facts on this subject?

I havnt read all the posts as there is alot.

I would add that. Drugs can both hinder and help with one's grasp on magick.
Synthetic and processed drugs I would tend to say away from.
WIth natural occuring drugs I think they are useful.
Keep in mind certain cultures have used plant drugs for centruies in their magical practices.