Sigils Vs Talismans Options

Both are said to have the same effect, that of bringing something toward you, am not sure if a sigil can be made to protect you from something like an amulet but anyway... decided to get into the use of sigils as at times its good to have a bit of lower stuff to compliment higher stuff, thought Kraig gave information on it but found it kind of lacking in place of a more indepth section on talismans, a questioning thought then arose as to their purpose, which to use and for what.... so I pose it here.

Why go through the arduous process of making and charging a talisman if you can draw up and "charge" a sigil in a much shorter space of time?

Am I correct in saying that sigils would be best for use in regards to inner changes while talismans are better for external?

This sounds correct, at least to me.

For example, I'm rubbish with women for the most part and wish to improve on this, a talisman to this effect would be useless as I would be attempting to draw this change externally...? Whereas a sigil would be an attempt at bringing the desired quality out from within my self.... still, its a given example in Kraigs text that a talisman can be used to help with studies which would mean that they're quite apt at bringing internal, dormant qualities out as well as drawing them in but its a confusing one... another example, have been attempting to get a yoga move for a while, how would a talisman help in regards to achiving yogic practices, it would surely bring you a good guru or an inspired comment from one as you practice, putting you on the path toward its attainment = External. A sigil would impregnate your subconscious, have you realize the blockage and help you release it + Internal.

Opinion...?
Peace
//M//

Both are said to have the same effect, that of bringing something toward you, am not sure if a sigil can be made to protect you from something like an amulet but anyway... decided to get into the use of sigils as at times its good to have a bit of lower stuff to compliment higher stuff, thought Kraig gave information on it but found it kind of lacking in place of a more indepth section on talismans, a questioning thought then arose as to their purpose, which to use and for what.... so I pose it here.

Why go through the arduous process of making and charging a talisman if you can draw up and "charge" a sigil in a much shorter space of time?

Am I correct in saying that sigils would be best for use in regards to inner changes while talismans are better for external?

For example, I'm rubbish with women for the most part and wish to improve on this, a talisman to this effect would be useless as I would be attempting to draw this change externally...? Whereas a sigil would be an attempt at bringing the desired quality out from within my self.... still, its a given example in Kraigs text that a talisman can be used to help with studies which would mean that they're quite apt at bringing internal, dormant qualities out as well as drawing them in but its a confusing one... another example, have been attempting to get a yoga move for a while, how would a talisman help in regards to achiving yogic practices, it would surely bring you a good guru or an inspired comment from one as you practice, putting you on the path toward its attainment = External. A sigil would impregnate your subconscious, have you realize the blockage and help you release it + Internal.

Talismans are somewhat more versatile than sigils, as they utilize forces not directly assessable to the magus or at least ones that are impractical to direct actively, but as a rule they create a field of relevant energies around itself and, providing your carrying it, around you as well. This means that there are more applications for a talisman because they give a physical anchor to the magick so it will last longer and is more potent. As long as you can state the intent for the talisman in terms of "to make such-and-such a thing happen" and it is happening to the person place or thing connected with the talisman they should work very well.

A sigil as general rule works on some deep aspect of the mind - some say unconscious, some super conscious, some universal unconscious - depending on which one you work with the effects are manifest in different ways. The process in still the same in that you imbue a symbol of your intent with power and then release it. Use unconscious assumption and it brings changes in you - you will get a personality quality that helps with lady problems for example. Use the universal unconscious assumption and you can effect other people, for example making a woman notice/like you. Assume it uses super conscious and you can make situation occur, for example getting you and the right lady together at the right time.

You are correct in thinking a talisman can bring you a guru and dedication, but so would a sigil. Personally, I would use a talisman for the former and a sigil for the later. Using a sigil in this case is turning your mind into a talisman which attracts beneficial situations, energies and mindsets. As for the yoga move you are attempting that is rather more complicated. Because it is so physical and deals only in the physical plane there is no direct way to go about it with magick. I have heard about some eastern talismans which effect conditions of the body but that is one level removed from the physical plane.

The real difference between a talisman and a sigil come out in magus's conceptions on duality. A talisman cannot bring you a "thing" nor can a sigil. They can alter the situations and energies in which you/the talisman/sigil operate, making it more likely if not inevitable that you get what you want, yet that is not the same as saying the sigil/talisman got me money for example. Internal/external is only useful up to a point. For sigils and talismans it is often more productive to look at how removed an objective is from the material plane. If it is not at all removed, a talisman being a physical anchor for the energies is often more helpful. Also helpful is abstracting the goal away from the physical plane. Doing so increases the effectiveness of your magick, manipulating more energy or mental schema which are more substantial to influence. If your goal is highly abstracted, think if you will of love or some other psycho-emotional state, then a sigil is more efficient regardless of internal aims (insight) or external (studies); providing you only want a one off event. Anything that lasts over time needs a physical anchor. That I suppose is the reason for making a talisman despite the effort.

This post has been edited by fatherjhon: May 5 2012, 12:31 PM

I have never made the distinction between a sigil being internal and a talisman being internal. The only major difference I see in the two would be how long you want to have the object. I would use a talisman for a spiritual connection, or a long term sort of energy, but I might only make a quick sigil if I want help with romance for the next month. I wouldn't want to ruin a sigil that I might need for years.

Also a talisman could be constructed out of particular metals, instead of a sigil which would be written on paper (or parchment I suppose).

By internal and external I meant that a sigil is to lodge itself within you and in that way, should, in my view be used to bring latent qualities out.... going by the Macro - Microcosm theory most Magicians follow working internally should really be all you need to consider... on the other hand a talisman is outside of you, how ever attached etherically, and as such would serve to bring situations toward it specifically. Questioning whether a talisman can be used to make a person 'better with women' which would involve bringing out an inner quality or help you master an instrument, again an inner quality. More likely that a talisman in those situations would bring something external toward you (or bring you toward something external as mentioned) in order to aid in those circumstances but wouldn't work unless you anchor that influence (to quote FJ) Ie: You would need to learn (anchor) from a teacher rather than find yourself suddenly bestowed with a superior knowledge of chords and scales along with charisma and charm enough to make Brad Pitt cry and offer you Anglina's hand in marriage.... and leave with the kids. Only a sigil can do that, in theory .lol.

Everything needs a certain permanence to it, anchoring as mentioned... wouldn't want to simply pass a test and then find myself out of my depth when arriving at Cambridge University the following year, it would need to be anchored. Can understand where FJ is coming from, but it in general sounds as though using a sigil and making yourself a walking talisman and anchor is a more efficient or worthwhile way of working for most things whereas (again) talismans are best at being vehicles for forces and drawing things external toward them rather than you when necessary, or to be a more constant influence as said.

Abstracting things from the physical, using the I Ching as some Qi Gong schools do, find out what complex is blocking that yoga move (swap: the attainment of a specific goal) then use a sigil (internal) to help remove or resolve that blockage... something a talisman would fail at...?

Peace
//M//

By internal and external I meant that a sigil is to lodge itself within you and in that way, should, in my view be used to bring latent qualities out.... going by the Macro - Microcosm theory most Magicians follow working internally should really be all you need to consider... on the other hand a talisman is outside of you, how ever attached etherically, and as such would serve to bring situations toward it specifically.

Everything needs a certain permanence to it, anchoring as mentioned... wouldn't want to simply pass a test and then find myself out of my depth when arriving at Cambridge University the following year, it would need to be anchored. Can understand where FJ is coming from, but it in general sounds as though using a sigil and making yourself a walking talisman and anchor is a more efficient or worthwhile way of working for most things whereas (again) talismans are best at being vehicles for forces and drawing things external toward them rather than you when necessary, or to be a more constant influence as said.

They can certainly act in that way, though it is just as valid to say that they access the universal unconscious and so act on everyone else as well. It depends on the intent one programs in to the sigil and how the magus understands it to work. If you can conceptualize a way to get what you want though any of the mental schema that people use to understand how sigils function, then use that schema. In truth they are all valid, as they all speak to a underlining mechanism. The micro-macro theory is useful in that if informs us that the micro is the macro, and while people often interpret that to mean you can use one to influence the other, they are still united and we should attempt to influence both aspects.

To illustrate lets take a contrary example and say that you are doing a talisman or sigil to keep away from your house something unwanted, let us say fire. Now an intent that works internally would in this case make the house less likely to catch fire (a dropped candle might take 30 seconds to catch the carpet rather than 3) and externally to make it more likely people in the house are not clumsy with their candles and happen to go in just in time to pick up a dropped candle. Now the intent (again as sigil or talisman) was cast by you; operates on inanimate objects (the house, carpet, candle); and anyone in the house (who place candles or finds dropped ones). Qualities in other people where brought out (carefulness), situations manipulated (people walking in at the right time) and physical processes altered. Things were attracted so that others are repulsed, and everyone in the house was effected both internally and externally and the intent could have been placed in a sigil or talisman.

The only real difference between a talisman and a sigil is that a sigil will disperse its effects outwards until its goal is achieved or the energy you put in it dissipates. A talisman by contrast will condense rather that dissipate the energies you place in it. If you used the correct materials, symbols, ext. then over time the energies/materials will attract for of the same, visa vi like-to-like. You may have an intent where it is useful to dissipate for, example finding a liberal girlfriend in a conservative city. Or you may need to keep the effects localized such as if you were to find a girlfriend among the people you associate with.

Abstracting things from the physical, using the I Ching as some Qi Gong schools do, find out what complex is blocking that yoga move (swap: the attainment of a specific goal) then use a sigil (internal) to help remove or resolve that blockage... something a talisman would fail at...?

A talisman would work just as well, or rather just as poorly, and it would be a very inefficient use of resources to make a talisman for each asana. To be clear, magick which done for ails of the body work on energetic principles of the body. If you have a degenerative bone condition or the flu, reiki, TMC, or qigong can transform energy patterns associated with them in patterns that support normal function. The five bodies are interconnected so when one is broken others will start to fail in a mutually supportive way - the same for healing. However, if you can't do the splits because you are not limber, then you can make as many talismans as you want but it will never be as good as practice. The abstraction comes into play more for goals like "become a yogi" where conditions that relate to success are physical, environmental, social, mental, emotional, and spiritual. Both sigils and talismans will alter these conditions providing much greater opportunities for success.

Also a post script:
The I Ching method you mentioned is pretty rubbish for attaining particular goals, and is used more for identifying what is at work in a situation or your life in general and then how to make the best use of it. If you find yourself going after a particular goal, look at what in involved with attaining it, then do magick. The I Ching only helps you deal with what comes up as you seek your goal, it is by no means a road map, much to my disappointment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol_2.gif)

This post has been edited by fatherjhon: May 6 2012, 08:38 PM

Will leave you with the authoritive last word on that, or at least try .lol. Had plans to make a talisman/sigil for various reasons, tend to find that in planning to do so the item or change "wished" for seems to manifest itself off the back of that initial intent. Strange. Think I'll take to practicing with talismans regardless, good for learning how to charge alchemical stuff.

Peace
.m.