Chaos, the Ability to Perceive Options

I promised this thread on another discussion thread and now...I have to deliver.
Just what makes Chaos Magic(k) chaotic?
We are beings with the ability to perceive many things but is Chaos one of them?
How, as organized life forms, are we able to conceptualize Chaos and then produce a 'system' of magic that utilizes this principle? (the idea of a 'system' implies order by its very nature)
A close friend and I are in the middle of this debate...he's a Molecular Biophysisist and I'm a dropout. He claims evidence of chaos exists in many ways and I've asked him to illustrate this. So far I've not heard of anything objective. True, we can say 'chaos' and write 'chaos' but we are doing so with the tools of order.
Let me bow out for awhile and let the over heated air cool and invite ideas from the Forum. Remember, this is a debate/discussion and we should agree to disagree rather than slinging shots! OK? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Ok, I disagree with you completely, and I'll reply constructivley. Chaos Magic isnt a system, its a framework that uses all other magical paradigms, real or fictional and allows the magician to paradigm shift from one to the other, as chaotically as the individual chooses.

Chaos itself saturates.... well... all of reality, have you ever read anything about Chaos Magic Theory? Chaotic systems influence everything in our universe, most notably the weather, but it also applies to everything, even the human mind. Your very personality is the result of many chaotic occurences, biological, psychological, etc, non of which could have been planned. Open your eyes man! The universe isnt ordered or constructed, its a total mess! There is the illusion of order in our everyday lives, but even traffic jams, train journies, office work etc etc blaa blaa are totally chaotic. If the world wasnt chaotic then it would be perfect, and it sure as hell isnt!

CM is called CM because its foundation is based on Chaos Theory, and all Chaotes are advised to have at least basic knowledge of this as it describes ways that the universe works and how to apply this to magic.

Yes, we do percieve chaos, its all around you cant you see it?! We are most defintely NOT organised life forms, seriously! Ever heard of something called crime? Entropy and random occurences happen ever quadtrillionth of a millisecond; the very reason our universe came into existance was a chaotic act. Atoms act chaotically, have you heard of the Heisenberg principle in Quantum machanics? Quantum Darwinism fits into this too, run a search on these principles.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

you make some interesting points. By your observation then Science is based on Chaos. (remember, please, that I'm playing Devils Advocate...my eyes ARE wide open!*grin*) Since the Big Bang we have enjoyed Order, in part. This goes against Fundamentalist teachings which proclaim God made the heavens and the world and then populated it with various forms of life and being. How is it that a rock is a rock and not just whatever you wish it to be? Where does Order come in? Or is it all just Chaos in various continually morphimg 'forms'? Note: Semantics play a heavy role in societies perception so I don't think that we should set it aside...but we can if you're willing.
BTW, thank you for responding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

How is it that a rock is a rock and not just whatever you wish it to be? Where does Order come in? Or is it all just Chaos in various continually morphimg 'forms'?

You didnt run searches and learn about what I advised would enlighten you did you?

Well.... fine, I've ran the searches myself. READ!

http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041220/pf/041220-12_pf.html

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~imamura/122/feb9/hup.html
The last line in this article should read, "This notion has interesting consequences for nuclear fusion in stars, (here's where I butt in) AND in the practice and perception of magical acts such as enchantment, evocation and sigil magic.

Also look up Superposition, Entanglement, Entropy, M Theory, String Theory and Chaos Theory itself as they all have direct applications and relavence when one wishes to learn about how Chaotic our universe is.

"Since the Big Bang we have enjoyed Order, in part."

I would say that we have enjoyed Chaos totally since the Big Bang, or whatever it was that caused all the background radiation (M Theory goes into this in great depth.), there was no chaos before the BB because there were no physical systems for chaos to manifest within. The BB was the first act of chaos.

This post has been edited by Alarum: Jul 13 2005, 07:12 PM

"Our work shows that the environment is not just finding out the state of the system and keeping it to itself", he adds. "Rather, it is advertising it throughout the environment, so that many observers can find it out simultaneously and independently."

This, as stated by your first web site is conclusion enough that order exists. (I will touch on this further)


"A consequence of the Qunatum Mechanical nature of the world, is that particles can appear in places where they have no right to be (from an ordinary, common sense [classical] point of view)! "

This does not necessarily reflect Chaos. Just because particles react differently to our scientists ways of thinking doesn't mean Chaos. (side note: scientific papers with mis-spellings become less plausible due to lack of quality control. Just an observation from years of reading these papers...)

First let me preface any further discussion by stating that this thread should be talked about in a cool way. Casting emotive barbs will not further discussion rather it will let things dissolve into bad feelings and the end of rationality.
I did read the blurbs and this condescension is not conducive to progress. Nor am I particularily stupid or dense.

I am conversant with all your suggested syllabus. The very ideas put forth are spawned from a scientific bent which by its nature deals with Order. Atomic 'structure' is Order. Genetic codes are Order. Crystals are Order. Ritual is Order. Language is Order.
BTW the two websites contradict one another. Ah....Dis-Order!

Order is Structure and Form. Chaos is Formless. Just because we cannot measure some things doesn't mean that they are Chaotic. Not to say that they are strictly of Order either.

"The last line in this article should read, "This notion has interesting consequences for nuclear fusion in stars, (here's where I butt in) AND in the practice and perception of magical acts such as enchantment, evocation and sigil magic. "

This is your slant, though I'm not sure exactly what you are saying...
Are we perceiving Chaos or the Idea of Chaos? Theory is not Fact, something that the scientific community waffles on when it suits their personal points of view.
Actually I'm of the camp that views the BB as the imposition of Order on Chaos.

Semantics play are part here. We can say that something acts Chaotic when it doesn't fall within expected patterns of existance/observation. This doesn't necessarily mean that it is Chaos. It just isn't acting the way we think it should....from our Ordered Universe. Again, I ask as I originally did, can we perceive Chaos? Not just things acting 'chaotically' but actual Chaos.

I think that in Magic we deal with Chaos and Order but we tend to think about them in a different way. MY spin is that Conciousness allows us to take and shape Chaos into usable 'form' or Order. We inhabit very Ordered shapes but when we step outside these shapes we are able to deal with Chaos and Order in a more intimate fashion. Even Astral substance has some Order to it, though not nearly as much as the physical world.* Life appears to be Chaotic but isn't very...just a large collection of ordered things acting in many, diverse ordered ways. Change principles suggest the introduction of Chaos though still in an ordered fashion (ie a butterfly doesn't change into a snake after chryssalis...maybe a different mutative butterfly form but not something else entirely) Again, hierarchal structure = Order!
* The plasticity of Astral substance is a good example of Chaos manifesting through the Ordered Universe. By strong visualization and force of will/emotion we are able to 'crystallize' form and structure to the Astral substance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This post has been edited by bym: Jul 14 2005, 06:23 AM

There is order in our small little lives, bopping about from a to b, waking up in the same bed everyday in the same place etc. But the amount of order in the universe compared with disorder/entropy and chaos is 1 to a billion billion trillion whatever’s. Evolution is a chaotic system, the Butterfly Effect, fractals, the movement of particles through our 11 dimensions. I can't illustrate further, only to say that chaos is manifest in every physical system to some extent. Order is simply a illusion that we have grown accustomed to in our happy little controlled western lives. Eris is everywhere, in everything.

Humans have invented the idea of order, just as they have invented the ideas of Good and Evil. These things are not real, there are just differing amounts of chaos. The very matter we are comprised of acts chaotically on the micro level, but appears ordered on the macro. The table looks like and always has looked like, a table. But according to string theory and QM, one day it could change into a chicken. There is a chance it could happen, and so, given enough time, it WILL happen. You would think that this is totally out of the question, but if their is a chance, even if its 1 in (insert something very big with several billion zeros on the end), then it will still happen. You list lots of things that 'appear' on the macro to have order, but think about the way it works on the quantum level.

Saying I can directly 'perceive' chaos is like saying I can directly 'perceive' my house without using any of my senses or my imagination, its impossible. However, I don’t see how this adds anything to the theory of Order.

Again, if the universe was an ordered structure then it would be perfect. There would be no accidents, now coincidence, nothing would be lacking or incomplete. The Quabbalah explains this by saying that the original universe was created by the God to be totally perfect, but as it was perfect it collapsed and destroyed itself. This is where the Qlippoth comes from, the shells left over from the last creation, and also that when an Adept reaches Kether consciousness and crossed the abyss (ie, attaining perfection) s/he must take a fall and return once more to the world of action, and also, if the origami martial artists (I forget their name) create a piece of origami that is considered completely perfect, they are expected to move one piece of it or even damage a tiny part of it for fear that it will destroy the universe.

Chaos does not have to be something physical to be perceived, its an abstract concept designed to describe the breakdown/ erratic behaviour of physical systems. The word 'order' is exactly the same.

"Just because we cannot measure some things doesn't mean that they are Chaotic."

Well what else would you say this random atomic behaviour is; do you think that its still order but just too ordered for us to understand?

This post has been edited by Alarum: Jul 14 2005, 10:28 AM

the order you can perceive is only one of two things.
1. an illusion.
2. created by humanity.

On a large scale you have the solar system, which appears to be in order.
But this is not true, the time frame is shifted from normal human appearance. If you look at a time frame that is more suited to the grandeur of a solar system. You can see that in a slice of about the life of our sun. Our solar system is just a small outburst in the chaos, extremely unstable. The sun literally destroys itself. Calling our solar system is like calling the element fire stable, is a flame really that stable? once its combustion fluid is burned away it is gone. (i know the sun is a nuclear fusion process, but the result is the same...)

In nature there is no order. Life just seems to come into existence when the right properties are there. Note evolution, evolution is skipping the order. If there was perfect order then evolution would not happen.
perhaps you say it is part of adaptability. But in fact evolution creates such diversity that it is absurd. No two flies are exactly the same, no two living organisms are exactly the same. Imagine the infinite number of differences. Then imagine that every organism, that once existed in the million years of this earth, are the same. No two trees are the same.
Then imagine that there may have been, or is life on more planets.
And, with the life forms on this planets, each life form that is capable of thinking has his own unique thoughts, and no two thought forms are the same, you cannot think something exactly the same as you did before.
That does not seem like something neatly ordered to me, the diversity is mind blowing.

Then see how no two stones are the same, no two ripples of water are exactly the same. And there are many planets, even in this solar system that have rocks and fluids and wind.
This diversity is absurd, and chaotic.

gravity may seem like a form of order, but it is not.
Gravity is just a result, it is different from location to location, from planet to planet.

Just name something that appears as order, and if it is not made by man, i will explain how its order is an illusion.

Excellent points! I'm not sure that I can or want to refute some of these illustrations.
The discussion was about our ability to perceive Chaos. I had hypothesized that as creatures of Order, was it possible for us to perceive Chaos? (or merely order acting chaotically) There has been many good arguments brought forth to illustrate that:
1. Order is illusion
2. the universe is Chaotic
...and a whole lot of flailing in the dark about Quantum Mechanics, entropy and occult hoo-haw.

Philosophically, Order and Chaos are a dualistic 'paradigm'. In order to state that Order is an illusion is to either declare the same for Chaos or to allude to this as not a duality at all, leaving that Chaos is All. Interesting. (How 'bout a Trinity?)
That the universe is chaotic, IMHO, is partially true. I still adhere to the idea that Chaos is Formless. In truth, I am of the belief that Order does exist and it swims in Chaos, utilizing it to further its own existance.
I am in direct disagreement with the Tree of Life/Qliphoth analogy used. The Qliphoth are the 'leftovers'/imbalances of the Sephira which are various 'forms' of Order.
Evolution Theory is not Evolution Fact, as is Chaos Theory is not Chaos Fact.
Abstracts are perceptions outside of established Order. Could one not say that Chaos as an Abstract is merely Theory and therefore not based in tangible Fact?
It gets very complex.
Our Forum subscribes to many, diverse forms of 'hidden' knowledge (ie occult) which can be separated into two basic camps, Chaos and Order. The theological groups tend toward Order...hierarchies are a manifestation of Order and the psionicists tend toward Chaos. Emotion fuels the lot in some ways (after all humans have emotions) Not to leave the theologic Psionicists alone mayhap we have a Neutrality as a Third?
Perfection also has nothing to do with it. As a chaote I would find that Chaos is perfect. Perfection is an attribute imposed on the human condition, it is an Abstract. I can hear the theologicians grumble. But GOD is perfect! Says who?
All of the above has been mulled around in human brains. Our perceptions are not limited by Order nor as formless as Chaos. During this discussion where was the old maxim: As Above, So Below ? Without form we could not not have probabilities. Without CHaos we would not have change. Chaos requires Order.
More later as I'm starting to ramble and need to cogitate. You guys keep one alive, Thanks!

Perfection also has nothing to do with it.

I was saying that when something actually IS order, it collapses in on itself as real order can not exist, and if it did it would threaten the universe.

Those theologians can suck my ass, no God is perfect. I believe that nothing is perfect, not even the divine; in fact, as I believe that divine entities etc are just manifested archetypes of the deep subconscious, I believe that they are even more imperfect than us as human beings! But that is for another discussion.

I think this whole thread belongs in a philosophy board... it doesnt really have much to do with CMT. But nontheless, its a damn good discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pimp_.gif)

I, alas, disagree...but I'm sure that this will continue for years... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
I've just talked with my scientist friend and, after setting me straight about physics and thermodynamics, I feel dumber and even more convinced at the Order of the Universe. Yeah, this was/is heavy into philosophy but what the hey? I'm glad you were able to stand up and talk about it! Most people run screaming from a debate. I apologize for the 'disordered' way I argued my case...it was puerile and not well thought out. Maybe next time I can articulate better on the subject(s)...ciaou (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

very interesting...

as for perfection. Nothing is perfect, and everything is perfect.
The abstract of perfection is so vague. If i bake some steak, and its baked to the exact point i like it, still a little red. Then i say that the stake is cooked to perfection. But a steak with some red in it may be disgusting to you?

terms like perfection, beauty, intelligence, .. are all abstracts created by human intelligence. It is a way we measure something that really cannot be measured. And it is largely Dependant upon the human mind, and sometimes it differs from mind to mind.

As for chaos. I think order emerges from chaos. At the basic level all order we have is not constant. All order we observe is hinging like a scale, waiting for a gentle push to fall one way or another.
I believe there are gods, or powerful entities that have the ability to shape the chaos. Perhaps it is they that shape the order into this world.

But who can really know, these things are so abstract that it makes discussion hard. And personally i have my doubts about chaos and order.

I think the tao, the force, is the same as 'the chaos'. Some underlying chaotic ether, that is the basis for this world, energy in an uncondensed and uncontrolled way..

Now, what do i think at this moment.
I don't really care, in the end it is not important what or who or how chaos is. These are illusionary problems. It can provide an interesting question but i don't think it is really necessary to know the truth of such far fetched theorys. Meditation, daily rituals, sharpening the mind, overcoming demons(= fears, doubts, wrong thought patterns).
Those are things that interest me much more, and this conversation has certainly sharpened my mind.

Do to the very nature of chaos, I can't say very much on the topic. I will say this, however:

CODE

- chaos happens -

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very insightfull.. damn.. couldnt have put it better myself!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

so now I guess you're going to make me read this
whole god damn thread arent you bym?

fruckin bloody slimy rat sucking demon kissing cod swallop

..too damn many good threads to read...

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I think that one can definitely learn to perceive the most important aspect of chaos and that aspect is chance. Though I don't think most perceive chance with their eyes, they perceive it through other senses, not that it's impossible to see. The quote 'for the beginners mind there are many choices, for the expert there are few' seems to fit in well with this topic. If you can perceive chance then I think you must be able to perceive chaos but I'm not sure if it's part of human nature to do such a thing.

To me:

Chaos is the order that I do not comprehend.
Order is the chaos that I comprehend.

The key that differentiates chaos and order is my comprehension.

As I comprehend chaos, then chaos becomes order.
As I do not comprehend order, then order becomes chaos.


**********


When I use the word chaos for qualifying the word magick, chaos references the process for engaging the order that I do not comprehend - with the magickal goal being volitionally to cause the change of specifically shifting from not comprehending to comprehending. i.e. transforming chaos into order.

I apply the order resulting from that transformation for refining how I engage my experiences.

To anyone who doesn't comprehend how I do what I do, my magickal process is chaotic. They often consider my magickal process to be chaotic because my magickal process occurs according to my personal paradigm, which differs compared to whatever paradigm they use for their magickal work.

To anyone who comprehends how I do what I do, my magickal process is ordered - albeit ordered from within the context of my paradigm.

Based upon that: showing someone chaos simply results from either explaining, or demonstrating, a magickal working that they do not comprehend.

Thank you. I find that you have said that rather well.
I'm beginning to believe that 'awareness/conciousness' is the underlying glue, so to speak...IMHO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

This is a question that has no answer. However consider this. We as humans have Finite mental capacities. We can neither concieve nor comprehend anything that is infinite. Chaos is infinite, therefore while we may be able to tap into this force, we are tapping into something it is imposible for us to comprehend. Consider also what happens when the human body is plunged into Chaos, it can not exist, it will be torn apart in a maelstorm of seething entropy. Lets face it, we are creatures of balance. We need both order and chaos to exist. Too much order would make us as you say "perfect", stagnant unchanging, never able to grow or become. Magick could not exist without both order and chaos. Magick performed is directed by ordered focused will, without that it would just be throwing energy into the void and playing the astronomical odds hoping out of infinite targets it hits what you want it too.
On a tangent, BYM, you have a great mind and i have soooo much respect for you, thanks for having the courage to show true wisdom where others might just seem threatened and insecure in their beliefs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thankyou.gif)

One way of looking at it.....


(IMG:http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c136/al_zaine/choa-order.jpg)

This post has been edited by al_zaine: Jul 21 2007, 07:29 PM

Order and disorder are two sides to the same illusion. Granted one breeds the other, but that first must be crafted.

I agree that order and disorder are both illusion.
With the example I gave you, you can see it in basic form, the chaos is simply messy lines whereas the order is lines drawn with direction, in a sense, or co-ordinance, but at the end of the day its only my perception.
I like to envision choas compared to order as something like a mosh pit compared to line-dancing or the directionless rioters compared to the co-ordinated police force. In some amazingly odd way, its as though order is percieved as chaotic to those of choas and vice versa, not so much breeding eachother but....being each other, because beyond this dual illusion of order/chaos is the same source which I can only percieve as that transparencey which is whithin all and is all.
Peace,
Al.

This post has been edited by al_zaine: Jul 24 2007, 07:59 PM

One way of looking at it.....
(IMG:http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c136/al_zaine/choa-order.jpg)

And yet even with all the contorted lines and randomization there is a deeply complex pattern adherant to some mathematical principle. Pure chaos and pure order cannot exist. Your sigil may represent chaos but it still carries order. If it was pure chaos you wouldn't see the partials of geometric figures. And for every twisted line, there is a straight one as well.

So would you say that formlessness is the true chaos.
My god is transparent and formless and exists within all, without all and is ALL.
To me it is both order and chaos, both light and dark, all the dualities, all of existence, ALL OF IT.
I'm now finding it harder to grasp what chaos is. We put individual letters together in and orderly fashion to make words for communication and if those words were broken down, communication 'in that form' would become chaotic, wouldn't it?
Al

In my opinion pure chaos and pure order cannot exist or at least we cannot concieve of them in this realm as we perceive it. We can represent it through symbols we can try to understand it through philosophy but we are beings created through a balance in both chaos and order. We have evolved in a universe so fast and yet seems to conform to a balancing act between chaos and order. As such we cannot currently know what pure chaos or order really are. Pure chaos is absolute destruction, as in anti-matter upon matter. Pure order is absolute and unchanging control. If the universe could not have been made by a force of pure order because pure order never changes. The universe would never have evolved at all. If the force that created it was pure chaos it would have simply self destructed and desolved back into nothingness. Only in the nothingness of space beyond our universe, beyond dark matter or dark energy, only in the void beyond all comprehension can pure chaos and order exist, imho.

you are trying to describe something that is washed in the wordless. the harder you try to grasp it the quicker it will slip through your fingers. all you can do is perceive it how you see fit and with no time line for which possibilities to fall to zero then i guess anything is possible. perceiving something new or different is the magick! a rock is a product of chaos. your face is also a product of chaos. also your shoe and even the computer your typing on is a product of chaos. the thought of the word chaos is a product of chaos. antimatter is a part of chaos. i could go on forever and ever. thats my take on it or so i ponder

you are trying to describe something that is washed in the wordless. the harder you try to grasp it the quicker it will slip through your fingers. all you can do is perceive it how you see fit and with no time line for which possibilities to fall to zero then i guess anything is possible. perceiving something new or different is the magick! a rock is a product of chaos. your face is also a product of chaos. also your shoe and even the computer your typing on is a product of chaos. the thought of the word chaos is a product of chaos. antimatter is a part of chaos. i could go on forever and ever. thats my take on it or so i ponder

I'd argue the things you mentioned that are products of chaos are also products of order. Order x chaos = our reality. Chaos is the change and evolution of existance and order is the laws of physics - thats not to say that even these laws cannot change or that we even know all of them.

Going back to the original question… “what makes chaos magic chaotic?”

Taking out any dogma…kind of the antithesis of chaos, Chaos magic is taking in anything and using it to conform to your will at that point in time. The basis of doing that…if done correctly is chaotic. The results are not as chaotic as one would think, or they are more chaotic then one would think in the order and simplicity it sometimes ends up being.

The science of complex systems is just now coming online in mainstream science. Newtonian and Quantum mechanics have both been disproven on fundamental levels, yet they are mainstays in the physicists toolbox because they work most of the time. They are currently the best tools available.

I would hate for people to think that lack of understanding equals proof of anything, all lack of understanding does is create chaos in your current reality.

Where chaos magic shines is in it’s current lack of fear to explore and experiment. “To challenge everything, or challenge nothing.”

To create a circle of power with shaving cream toped with cinnamon and use the sound, smell, and experience of the cinnamon crystals compressing the shaving foam to obtain a state for your spell work.

In essence where as most magickal traditions quest for order in their work space, the chaos “tradition” does not really care and almost hopes for randomness.

My only problem with the system is that it is easy to go more extreme to obtain sensory overload, as subtlety is more difficult to use unpredictably after a time.

I believe Chaos Magick is much more shamanic then the current mass of people who use it would believe, most come into it with ceremonial concepts or other structured system. Shamans use what is available to them…in our current world/urban environment there is a lot available. Chaos magic fits there very well.

That is my opinion at the moment anyway.

Chaos is every bit a part of the natural universe as order. Chaos is the energy behind everything. All order comes from chaos, and to chaos shall it all return. The Chaoist is one who understands the workings of chaos behind the scenes and attempts to weild these energies/concepts to create. IMO, the mastery of chaos magick is the ultimate god skill, as it gives the magickan the power to create order from raw energy.

Need examples of chaos in natural systems? Watch the television show "House." That show is a prime example of just how frail the orderly systems of natural living things are.

Typical thinking is to say that chaos is simply an unwelcome occurance in a universe that naturally orderly. Chaoists, however, believe that chaos is the natural state of things, and that order is the anamoley (sp?).

Chaoists use chaos to create order, and destroy order to release chaotic energy. Chaotic energy is a magickan's clay. From it we can shape, form, destroy and form again. It's how we play with the universe.

hi... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) ... just a question. does it really matter. im not trying to say anything everyone has really good ideas... but. well, what does it matter. its here you know. i doubt it really contimplates itself. i think chaos is chaos and law is law. the yin doesnt worry about the yang and vice versa... but dont take my words for anything. i just think were all right and wrong. thats all.... um bye

Well,loads of good ideas.Did any of you ever hear the saying that without a backdrop of order,chaos wouldn't exist?