So, Where Is It?, Step forward, and reveal!! Options

Conventional science is making wonderful strides with the advent of technology and physics. The LHC is the buzz of the community with their project to discover non-baryonic properties of the universe, one that "flows through everything" (sound like something similar to 'the force' to me!). The National Ignition Facility is looking to synthesize a contained star apparatus to harness fusion energy.

So many thing, yet so little on the other side.

Accounts exist detailing feats of metaphysical prowess. Levitation, telekinetics, psychic intuition, clairvoyance, as well as other phenomenon have been given a bad rap because no one has really stepped forward and brought it out for the world to see. Many people say, "This is dangerous to bring abilities out into the open." Why not? Why not show the world what human beings are truly capable of? Simply bringing attention to it will change the very foundation of our humanity. This would bring about a new aeon unto itself, as people would try to discover the secrets of the universe from non-conventional means.

The James Randi prize still remains unclaimed, the world is still stuck with it's head up it's ass about profit and greed, and in the meantime, metaphysicians, mystics, and practicioners from all walks of magick and the occult arts still choose to remain in the shadows for reasons that even a healthy skeptic would say, "that's still not a real reason."

What's holding us back? Why not bring about a revolution in human consciousness through our own effort? Why not take the initiative to reveal the universe through our arts to the world?

The world is in dire need of help, it's true. But, we cannot rely on the Gods or the universal principles alone to bring us to the next level. From every angle I've worked it, every answer seems to run to the tune of, "Humans need to change Humans. No one else has that right." Guidance from otherworldly teachers and inspiration has it's place, yes, but in this world, it is the Human Hand that deals and plays the cards. It won't matter how many times we analyze our "deck" or our "cards," the bottom line is, we are the ones to deal.

Where's the trump card? Is it all just one big bluff? I'm calling on it. Let the telekinetics come forward and do their thing in public cafes. Let the clairvoyant blurt out to the man on the street, "Don't go home, she knows." Let the mystic levitate in the public park. Let us troll the mundane world, and cause many lulz for the sake of Humanity's advancement.

It has been said that one cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, and on this premise, I believe it's time to stomp our foot down and make a point.
One cannot traverse the waters without making waves, and this ship we're on is truly massive. Let's give them a water wake that forces them to notice.

After meditating for a while, I feel that for what we want, need, understand, and realize, that the time bringing the occult into the open and showing talents is now. The occult arts have an allure for being "hidden" and "mysterious" and "secret," but take into account this bit of wisdom that helped to inspire this sentiment:

- A martial art student finally acquires a mystical scroll said to hold the most sacred and secret knowledge of his school. Opening it, he only finds a blank scroll with a reflective surface. After a while, he realizes as he sees himself, "There is no secret - It's all on me!"

And what about karmic implication or consequence? Consequence, in this case, would only be a matter of living with the result. Is it not the case that Karma is simply about coming to terms with consequences and rolling with the punches? We learn this the hard way in retrospect when people vote for the wrong politician, or teach a lesson to someone in haste, or develop a technology ahead of it's time when our ethics as people cannot properly tend to it. This is true, but is that any excuse for occult to stay hidden for so many thousands of years, just to avoid those consequences?

I simply call that cowardice.

Accounts exist detailing feats of metaphysical prowess. Levitation, telekinetics,

There are a lot of "accidents" where something truly bizarre will happen, but no one alive can perform telekinesis or levitation on purpose. That's the bottom line. Anyone who tells you that there are super-secret telekinetic occult masters is totally full of crap. Where is St. Joseph of Cupertino when we need him?

What we can do is show them what is actually possible, and attempt to expand on those possibilities. So what if you can't dictate someone's stream of consciousness by telepathy? Show them what your Tarot cards can do.

It's important to acknowledge the limitations of what you can do, and it's also important to look for ways to move beyond that. A lot of people turn from magic to mysticism out of frustration with their inability to advance in any practical sense. Refusal to even attempt anything practical, and the trend toward "creativity" rather than diligence in methods of practice, are the two biggest impediments to the development of magical arts among practitioners of all systems.

It's also important to expand the scope of possibilities for what you know can be done. What spell-casting teenager has not attempted love spells? There are a lot of other uses for the same sort of spell that have nothing to do with getting laid: resolution of conflicts, getting involved in something important, finding key people to make your projects come to fruition. Look for better applications for what you know works.

I freely admit my limitations, and for that matter have put both successes and failures out there as a matter of public record. Not one of the grand adepts of the super-great occult societies has ever had the balls to do such a thing. NOT ONE!!! And if you ask them for examples, you'll usually get a vague answer or none at all. Look over your occult book list, all those titles you own, and ask yourself how many of those authors would freely discuss their results and failures.

I think it's important to show people not only what can be done with magic, but to show them how we use it for ourselves: what we get out of it and what we would like to get out of it.

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Jan 10 2010, 11:54 AM

"There are a lot of "accidents" where something truly bizarre will happen, but no one alive can perform telekinesis or levitation on purpose. That's the bottom line."

Well, Imperial Arts, you seem pretty sure of yourself. I almost feel stupid arguing this. Almost. The people who can levitate and such are not people who seek fame or seek to help the universe. Do you understand why a monk stays up in the mountains all their life? They do not wish to get involved in petty things, which would be all they would find if they went out into the world and used their abilities. I can manipulate energy fairly well. I am not trying to boast, but in a number of years (I'm thinking anywhere from 3 to 20), I plan on collecting Mr. Randi's million. It may take longer than I would hope to be able to produce tangible results every time, but I have been known to prove magick to nonbelievers in my area every once in a while. Not every time mind you, just every once in a while when I'm really with it.

Maybe nobody alive can levitate, and that's why we never see it. But someday, I WILL levitate. That is my main goal as far as tangible power. Although don't get me wrong, my reason for walking the path of magick is to attain the wisdom to solve any problem a person may have.

And maybe my goals are set beyond my reach, but it's the journey a person always looks back upon. The destination is merely an ideal.

And maybe my goals are set beyond my reach, but it's the journey a person always looks back upon. The destination is merely an ideal.

I am fully confident that this is an attainable goal. You might be on the right track, or might not, but it's there to be obtained.

St. Joseph of Cupertino

There are probably better examples, but this one is my favorite. The flying monk!

My point here is only that there are things we do know how to do, and we should be doing them and happy about that. If we want to fly around, that's a goal to work toward, but not at the expense of other things that also work.

No matter what we can do, I am in agreement that we shouldn't hide them away unless there is some very tangible threat to our security as a result of doing so.

Interesting man, that Saint Joseph.

On the contrary the time to reveal magic isn't now at all. Such a concept, though not terrible, is as misguided as the bland statement that higher powers don't walk the earth. Such an ideal lacks one thing that's absolutely required to actually grasp power with any kind of control, that crucial thing is patience. What's the purpose of getting a million from that fat (*&#%@ slob Randi the RELAZYING? To what end? Do you think accepting money from some obnoxious dirt slinger is going to further the Art? Randi's money, as noted, more than one time on this forum is a scam, money not obtainable, it's a publicity stunt, nothing more.

Yet, let's say for a second it wasn't a scam, you could get the money. Have you really examined the consequences? Are you aware of the ramifications of your actions? Do you think just because you claimed one million dollars and proved you could float the entire world is suddenly going to care? I honestly don't think people will care as much as you might like to believe, that are plenty of people that can produce magnetism on command yet they are little more than oddities or attractions in this world. So go ahead, tell people to step forward and reveal themselves. However unless you actually have the ability to which you so ardently wish for ME to reveal then you have no place telling me to reveal myself. In essence you're not that much different than Randi, albeit not as fat or disgusting.

Bottom line, science is the progression of magic, what you see scientifically is possible through magic and vice versa. Science taps into that void, that world of wonder and brings things, concepts back. Their explanations are not always precise, in fact they're often very vanilla, but it's worthwhile, at least from today's energetic perspective. You say magicians step forward, well, they are already here, creating cell phones, new quantum and other equations or gadgets that challenge the theory of time and space.

The passion in the plea isn't wrong, no it's right, oh so right... but think about what you're calling for, you're calling for some sort of magical saint, a person who will instantaneously change the fabric of a multicultural reality, who will make nations tremble... go out, go out to the furthest most beautiful spot in the world you know and ask if this is the will of the way, ask it of the wind and the earth of that place and you'll hear a whispered back truth to you, no joke. Magic needs more stability, a more worldly entrance into the mainstream than some magical gunslinger toting his staff of might and cloak of invisibility for all the world to see.

This post has been edited by Bb3: Jan 12 2010, 08:44 AM

is as misguided as the bland statement that higher powers don't walk the earth.

Feel free to enlighten me then, which higher power walks this earth?

that crucial thing is patience

You mean thousands of years is not enough?

What's the purpose of getting a million from that fat (*&#%@ slob Randi the RELAZYING? To what end? Do you think accepting money from some obnoxious dirt slinger is going to further the Art? Randi's money, as noted, more than one time on this forum is a scam, money not obtainable, it's a publicity stunt, nothing more.

The purpose is to leave him with his foot in his mouth, and to get the "Your Ass on a Silver Platter" achievement in the game of life.

Have you really examined the consequences? Are you aware of the ramifications of your actions?

If I didn't, I wouldn't be predicating my case here. Do you mean to imply I was speaking in haste? If so, why?

However unless you actually have the ability to which you so ardently wish for ME to reveal then you have no place telling me to reveal myself

On what premise do you make that argument? Mine was upon the premise of looking at the world and feeling pity for the state it's in. Your tone sounds offended. Why be offended? If your power is genuine, why be afraid to show it? Just because I see a need for something, doesn't necessarily mean that I need the power to make that change myself in order to be able to blow the whistle. I am blowing the whistle on you, Bb3, for making that statement. If I see someone not acting when they have the power to, I will call on that because I am able to recognize that situation. If a person is trapped under a car, and nearby is a weak bystander and a strong bystander, is it wrong for the weaker to call on the strong?

I equate your statement with the stronger saying, "If you can't do it yourself, I won't help you." I find your remark to be undignified. It's not the stronger's place to protest in blatant disregard to the fact that something must be done. That is called "Aversion of Responsibility." The stronger have a duty to be of service to those who cannot help themselves. Denial of this concept results in what is known as "tyranny," where the stronger only act on a whim, where the weaker must fend for themselves, and are only wishing that the stronger will help them, only to be denied this. Tyrants use an ethical system that includes the rhetorical premise of your statement above.

If someone has the power to do something, they do it. This is true. But, keep in mind, that the power to recognize and analyze a situation and the power to execute changes accordingly are two completely different things. I recognize a situation. I called on it. I find it surprising that you not find your statement audacious, if not a little arrogant in tone.

I invalidate this argument, Bb3, on the premise that it's basis is unethical and not conducive to timely, efficient, and effective development of the person as an individual, and not good to the contribution of the human race as a whole.

And, for argument's sake, I have the right to speak citing these things because I, myself, have taken on practice of this credo, and I have never regretted it since, and only saw good things come from it, both in short term and long term, ergo, I make the claim that I am no hypocrite from where I stand on this issue.

What's more, if you do not wish to answer the call, then don't. There's no reason to voice your contentions to my argument if you want no part of it. You could have just as easily made your point by keeping silent.

In essence you're not that much different than Randi, albeit not as fat or disgusting.

Though the Post-Facto caveat lightens the blow of that accusation, I am still appalled by that. Have you bothered to read my other posts? Have you read anything I have said in the previous years? Have you watched as my responses and input has changed overtime from completely half-baked to focused? I put my effort in. I made my meditation. It came out and manifested itself as sagacious rather than practical. Though that, in itself, is a gift, it still leaves me wanting. Is it wrong to call to the strong? Do we not do that every time we go into ritual? What makes this any different?

You say magicians step forward, well, they are already here, creating cell phones, new quantum and other equations or gadgets that challenge the theory of time and space.

Rhetorically, I find your argument to be correct, and I must express respect for this statement!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) However, did you seriously mean to argue from that point, or just to avoid the implied premise that I was talking about anything that cannot be explained by conventional science at this time? Though I really like that response, in retrospect, I find that you have completely missed my point. Whether intentional or incidental, I cannot determine that. Nonetheless, I still assert that you have utterly missed my point.

The passion in the plea isn't wrong, no it's right, oh so right... but think about what you're calling for, you're calling for some sort of magical saint, a person who will instantaneously change the fabric of a multicultural reality, who will make nations tremble... go out, go out to the furthest most beautiful spot in the world you know and ask if this is the will of the way, ask it of the wind and the earth of that place and you'll hear a whispered back truth to you, no joke. Magic needs more stability, a more worldly entrance into the mainstream than some magical gunslinger toting his staff of might and cloak of invisibility for all the world to see.

And herein is the bullet that threatens to topple my argument. That magic itself needs a smoother transition into this world. From what I understand from your argument, I mean to ask, do you imply the following?

• That 'magic' as we know it is indeed an achievable state of science, but the discrepancy is comparable to Marie Curie's discoveries of radiation and today's nuclear physics.
• That we, as a world, are not yet ready for any true introduction of such power into the mainstream.
• That a 'magical saint,' for lack of a better way to put it, would only wreak havoc to the world no matter the intention.

Assuming that what I was able to infer your implications correctly, I will now address them.

• Though technology is advanced, and as you say, testing the known limits of space and time, the development seems like a logarithmic abstraction: Always approaching advancement to the next level, but never quite reaching that point. No breakthrough innovations, no revoluitionary discoveries, nothing that turns the world on it's head. The discrepancy, I feel, will never be addressed unless drastic, unconventional measures are taken.
• Lots of things were not meant to be introduced into the mainstream, because they only came to be abused. Tesla's discoveries allowed the US navy to develop the first Rail Cannon. Einstein's Discovery lead to use of deadly atomics. Though this is true, the plethora of myriads of good that came from these discoveries and derived sciences cannot be denied.
• Yes, I am seeking the coming of a 'saint' of sorts. Were not the scientists mentioned 'saints' of their time? Were they not the 'science saints?' Their discoveries brought both good and bad into our world, and brought us further in human advancement not just through technology, but a very paradigm shift in how we as human beings should view ourselves as beings of power with our new found abilities. Our ability to put insight into new responsibilities and ethics formed therefrom cannot be denied.

As an added point, what's wrong with wishing for the coming of another 'saint' to come to cause change? Lack of change causes stagnancy. Also, it keeps people on their toes. Before the wily are able to exploit the system we have in place with our knowledge, wisdom, and power, we should change it, causing a new level to be learned. One may argue that we are not ready because we have not yet learned ourselves, but isn't that the point? We learn about the world around us, and cause changes so that we -can- learn about ourselves. By introducing new technologies, we learned how cruel we can be, and we also learned how ingenious we can be in medicine and other endeavors. We learned about free expression with the advent of the Internet and the Information Age. We learned about the dangers of realpolitik after World War II. We thrust new things into existence with every advancement, only to learn about ourselves in the process. How can we learn anything new about ourselves when there is not something new to interact with? How can a baby know the concept of "smoothness" when a "smooth" object has never been touched?

Metaphorically speaking, a light cannot shine without a reflection. A sound cannot be heard unless it bounces or resonates an object. Energy must interact with matter in order for it to be noticed, much less worth anything. The energy we invest in ourselves is wasted unless we find something new to develop ourselves with. The learning journey must never stop. We learn about ourselves when we learn about the world without. When we throw something else in the mix, we resume our expansion into wisdom and introspection. The deeper the mysteries of our world become, the deeper we are able to reach within ourselves.

That is why I call out. That is why I call others to call with me in chorus to this. That is why we, as a people, must never stop.

t... but think about what you're calling for, you're calling for some sort of magical saint, a person who will instantaneously change the fabric of a multicultural reality, who will make nations tremble... go out, go out to the furthest most beautiful spot in the world you know and ask if this is the will of the way, ask it of the wind and the earth of that place and you'll hear a whispered back truth to you, no joke. Magic needs more stability, a more worldly entrance into the mainstream than some magical gunslinger toting his staff of might and cloak of invisibility for all the world to see.

Good point.

As for the world being full of physics-defying miracles. Yeah, in pop-culture literature for the masses who get an endorphin rush from believing that sort of thing and buy more books on the subject. As for magicians being in the closet for thousands of years. . . .
Look into history. There are lots of stories of miracle workers who purportedly changed the world. But the world didn't change; people latched on to certain ideologies and legends, spouted propaganda, brainwashed themselves, created cults --and religions--around the maverick miracle-worker. Indeed, they often whitewashed over the fact that the miracle worker was a magus. "Magick" has always been considered something suspect and antisocial despite that magical thinking and practicing magickal acts are ingrained in humor behavior. Magical acts accepted as truths in general society have always been defined by other labels, not "magick" or any related word. There are already a gazillion "god-men" in the world who people are flocking to for empowerment. And there are plenty of people holed up in places performing intense spiritual disciplines so that they can levitate someday or perform some such feat at will. --Go study TM or Tantric forms of Yoga, Buddhism, and Hinduism for that --for decades. That kind of discipline and dedication is not part of Western occultism. That's the kicker. It's thought leaders have been more in the vein of brainy and clever egotists that crash and burn like live-hard-die young rock stars. And whether reported miraculous/magickal events actually occur or if the episodes are just mindfucks is perenially in controversy. That is, are we talking about defying physics or subverting perception to accept an altered "reality." It is not about what is happening; it is about what the mind is manipulated into perceiving. This does happen on a mass scale; it is called a change in the consensus paradigm. History books are anthologies of changes in concensus paradigms.

And groups of magicians have gotten together to attempt to cause significant change on a large scale. Every hear of TOPY? There's plenty of other examples. But the effects of group workings have been interpretive.

Every hear of TOPY?

No. Explain.

TOPY (Thee Temple Ov Psychic Youth) is one of those things you're supposed to know if you were a hip teenager in the 80's.

In essence, TOPY is the brainchild of G.P.Orridge, who claims he single-handedly inspired such august trends as facial piercings, tribal tattoos, and raves. That's the sort of social progress all magicians strive to create! If I recall correctly, he is proud to be poor as dirt, though to his credit he is actually a very bright individual and gives due credit to Crowley for occult inspiration.

One his more innovative ideas was to tape a triangle onto a TV station set to "fuzz" and use it as a scrying tool. I suppose if you try it now, you'd get a "No Signal!" message which is surely the long arm of Greyface stomping down your psychic apparatus.

I am unaware of any sponsored scientific study of actual magic, investigating what we as magicians do and in the way we are supposed to do it. There are lots of studies involvong dice-rolls and guessing games, and endless debunking of "out of thin air" psychic messages, but no substantial studies in charms, talismans, invocations, etc as are commnly discussed here and among the majority of serious occult practitioners. Why not?

There are tons of scientific miracles that were at one time kept secret, and which later came to light for good or ill. Gundpowder didn't exactly make the world a better place, would the world be THAT much worse without it? Electricity, pasteurization, nuclear power, and a host of other things come to mind.

Personally I don't think magic and science are such close relatives, and don't expect science to ever grasp even the fundamental concepts of magic. That, however, is aside the point hich is to say that a real technology deserves to be put to use. It's stupid to use divination, for example, just to prove that it works, but you can prove it works and put it to some good use at the same time.

I don't say that a person who can fly should go around saying "Look I can fly!" like a circus freak, but that he ought to put it to some use. Can you move golf-balls across the table like Gavin Frost used to claim he could do? OK< so do something with that. There may be no good to come from showing off just to prove a point, but there is an evil accomplished when useful skills or powers are neglected or suppressed.

If you have super-powers, be a super-hero or a super-villain.... but don't just sit around with them doing nothing, and for the love of god don't confuse "putting your powers to work" with "making a YouTube video."

I'm so glad other people responded to that before I read it. I would've ended up typing just as much as all of you together....

but there is an evil accomplished when useful skills or powers are neglected or suppressed.

If you have super-powers, be a super-hero or a super-villain.... but don't just sit around with them doing nothing, and for the love of god don't confuse "putting your powers to work" with "making a YouTube video."

That's my point!! Exactly my point!!

Sure, if a person can fly, then they have a prerogative to use it and to teach others for the betterment of mankind, but I'm not expecting said person to be superman, now, unless they can also stop bullets. Having both, hypothetically, is definitely something to the extreme. But, superlatives aside, that little bit sums up my entire premise pretty much on the head.

Govts do engage in research related to occultism and keep tabs on some occulitsts (remember Occult Forums...?) They also have people decoding ancient occult texts. The data are classified.

There are small scale studies out there. There also is increasing study of magick from an anthropological perspective and quantum theory. Large, publicized controlled studies haven't been done because they require major financial backing and such backers typically are corporate investors. (Do you know how much medical technology falls through the cracks because a pharma company can't make and sell a pill from the research?)

Yes, and among and within the general counterculture nuttines and self-promotion, TOPY cells were performing experiments and magickal guerrilla tactics to cause effects. TOPY is just one of many other examples. Automatrix is another one in the Chaos current that just recently formed. I'm not glamorizing or promoting these things, I'm just saying that they are already there.

Autonomatrix (AX) has been around since the mid 90's (at least) as something like a west coast youth subculture outlet.

I am unaware of any research into quantum physics that would compare in any significant way to what magicians practice. The Anton Zeilinger experiments in photon pairing, for example, might produce a strange and "magical" effect resembling teleportation, but nothing remotely related to what magicians practice. Could you reference an experiment or theoretical paper (by a physicist) that has close parallels to occult work and the sort of fantastic powers under discussion at present?

Overall I think these "professional scientist" people are our enemies. Gains in science, especially the over-hyped particle physics stunts like the LHC, rely on huge amounts of funding and tremendous networks of specialists, each one of whom represents someone demanding a piece of the pie. It's amazing that they can get anything done at all. Imagine a magician requiring five hundred diverse people, approval of several governments, millions of dollars, and decades of peer reviews before making the slightest progress!

I'm in total disbelief about the "secret government occult decoders." The NSA can barely keep track of where all the drug money is going, and they simply don't waste time looking over Key of Solomon manuscripts. If you can drum up any reasonable indication that there is any serious investigation into "ancient occult texts" by the government, I'd love to see it. Even the TRV people (certainly not arcane occultism) eventually had to claim that they lost funding for their overall ineffective measures, despite some truly astounding successes here and there.

On the other hand, if you think Randi's prize sounds good, I guarantee the govt will give you a lot more money if you can show them how to make flying super-troopers.

I'm in total disbelief about the "secret government occult decoders." The NSA can barely keep track of where all the drug money is going, and they simply don't waste time looking over Key of Solomon manuscripts. If you can drum up any reasonable indication that there is any serious investigation into "ancient occult texts" by the government, I'd love to see it. Even the TRV people (certainly not arcane occultism) eventually had to claim that they lost funding for their overall ineffective measures, despite some truly astounding successes here and there.

Agreed, but I know someone who is doing--or at least confided to me-- that he is doing such work. and in any case, not to seem like a nut myself and apologies, it is probably best that I not elaborate on his rhetoric about it and etc. .

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

Carry on.

As I know it:


Science is the process according to which modern thaumaturgists work magick.
Alchemy became chemistry. Astrology became astronomy. etc....

Modern theurgists still work magick according to various alchemical, astrological, and all the other archaic models - in addition to pursuing philosophical, psychological, and other similar personal growth related approaches, theoretical systems, and practices.


The issue I have with a core perspective of the attitude and question for this thread is how it requires deep throating the premise that magick (and other "metaphysical prowess" known by whatever other term) only is magick when it references thaumaturgy - and then only is "real" if it happens like (and/or is melodramatically fantastic akin to) what Gandalf, Allanon, Belgarath, Harry Potter, etc... in novels, television shows, movies, etc... display.

That burning desire to develop and demonstrate amazing "powers" for manipulating events and entities in the Physical Plane seems like the immature approach to magick (and all other "metaphysical prowess" schemes proclaiming to teach one the means to that end, whatever they call themselves) to me. Frustration, impatience, and sloth more often than not motivate that burning desire to short-cut doing whatever must be appropriately done for regularly requiring the progressive (over time) work (the effort and attention) to fulfill goals in the Physical Plane.

o.O.o

If you want to see an example of current and intensely amazing magickal work that has been done by performed by a world reknown Magickal Order of modern thaumaturgists giving their all to craft and distribute incredible talismans which enable people to connect mind to mind, remotely view far away places, and thus sustain a level of interconnected communication like at no other time in human history - look at the Wizards working together over at Apple (and other such similar groups elsewhere, I only use Apple here for example, not to put it on an exclusive pedestal).

If that doesn't make any sort of sense - then yet again you are missing the essential and simple point.
And, in that case, more than likely the importance and reality of either traditional or modern theurgical endeavors also never will make any sense.

This post has been edited by Praxis: Nov 13 2011, 09:49 AM