On The Nature Of Possession, What exactly is it??? Options

I am greatly interested in exploring this topic with you guys on this forum. I've read the various posts that mention the subject, but none of them attempt to actually explain the nature of possession and to tell you the truth...for all that I've read and experienced, I can't actually explain what it is. To clarify, when I say 'possession' I am not merely suggesting demonic possession but I am also referring to possession by gods, spirits, djinns, angels, elementals, extra terrestrials, animals etc. I am also referring to deliberate evocations, scrying methods, speaking in tongues, channeling, walk-ins, and astral parasites. Possession, in question, is not always malign...so I thought it might be time to explore both the good and bad of it, and to get down to the nitty gritty of how it happens and why.

I gratefully welcome anyone's explanation on the events leading up to possession, the process (particular concerning how the host's spiritual and emotional energies are manipulated to accommodate the being), symptoms, various forms of exorcism (not constrained to the christian method), and the aftermath.

Wiccans and some Neo-pagans have a practice known as Drawing Down the Moon. In it, normally the coven's priestess allows herself to be possessed by a deity. I've never done it myself, but I have had it described in some detail. Naturally you have to go into meditation into an altered state of consciousness. I assume that it involves quietening the mind down and being receptive. When I do something similar with my totem animal, I expand my energy as if to attract the totem animal spirit. I'm told that they can control somewhat which facet of the deity manifests itself through how the ritual is set up, and probably through intent.

I've heard some say that the deity enters the body through the crown chakra, while others say that it enters them through the area between the shoulder blades or the back of the neck. The deity expands inside of the possessed and pushes his or her identity into a small corner. The person being possessed may be aware of everything that happens or somewhat dimly aware, or completely unaware. It varies. The trance may be light and the person consciously speaks, repeating what the voice of the deity is saying. With others, the deity takes complete control.

The deity may cause the possessed body to change somewhat. One of my friends grows taller several inches when drawing down Apollo and his eyes seem to turn blue. Generally the drawing down the moon is done in ritual for the purpose of guidance. People sometimes do it regularly in private to commune with their patron/matron deity and receive teachings.

Many religions involve possession and have their own methods, I just mention what I am most familiar with. The Seth books have a lot of material dictated by a spirit channeled by Jane Roberts. One of the books by the group around her describes the 'how to' in some detail. But whether you call it channeling or possession, it is basically the same thing.

I am greatly interested in exploring this topic with you guys on this forum. I've read the various posts that mention the subject, but none of them attempt to actually explain the nature of possession and to tell you the truth...for all that I've read and experienced, I can't actually explain what it is. To clarify, when I say 'possession' I am not merely suggesting demonic possession but I am also referring to possession by gods, spirits, djinns, angels, elementals, extra terrestrials, animals etc. I am also referring to deliberate evocations, scrying methods, speaking in tongues, channeling, walk-ins, and astral parasites. Possession, in question, is not always malign...so I thought it might be time to explore both the good and bad of it, and to get down to the nitty gritty of how it happens and why.

I gratefully welcome anyone's explanation on the events leading up to possession, the process (particular concerning how the host's spiritual and emotional energies are manipulated to accommodate the being), symptoms, various forms of exorcism (not constrained to the christian method), and the aftermath.

Posession is something that takes place outside of the 3-dimensional space that we are used to. The material world presents some special problems for posession, because although we think of our bodies as housing our mind and spirit, in reality they are continuous beyond the material world. That is to say, there is no separation between your mind, body, and spirit. Soul and Spirit are not the same thing, however, and it is the Soul that animates the composite being we identify by those three 'modes'. In terms of the difference between them, Soul is divine or at least sublime in nature whereas the MBS complex is in comparison wholly material, despite the fact that from our typical point of view the mind and spirit are immaterial - they occupy a material reality wrapped up in the additional dimensions we are not directly aware of, commonly.

During posession, the soul is displaced. This can be accomplished in different ways. In the case such as Goibniu mentioned, and also the benign cases that you brought up, the individual willing offers the mind-body-spirit complex as a vessel for the being in question. This is not as simple as asking said being to take over - it involves litterally giving up one's own 'posession' over the MBS construct to the extent that it is identified only as a thing which the soul temporarily lives in, and can offer up to house another entity.

This is why in the cases of negative posession - that is, malign in nature - there are states of spiritual opression leading up to the posession, where the individual slowly loses that sense of personal ownership over their body, mind, and spirit; in short, their life. All such cases follow similar patterns, although with degrees of subtlety. The individual is beset with anger, depression, fear, malaise; they begin to lose interest in sustaining the 'vessel' as it were, and feel that events around them or within them are entirely out of their control. They are easily led and lose will power to the point that they appear to be literally an empty shell. Somewhere along the way the posessing entity begins to push the soul out, or to cram into the vessel with it. In a way our ownership over the MBS complex is a kind of seal that keeps other entities out. The presence of the soul, I would speculate, sustains the movement of vitality between the three modes of the complex and perhaps it is that stability that prevents other entities from posessing the body. Even in cases of afflicted posession - that is, a curse - posession is not immediate, the person's hold on the MBS still has to be broken down.

Another path into posession, however, is sympathetic in nature. The individual begins to believe they are somehow connected to an entity, whether they are or not, and thus convinces themselves that the entity essentially has as much right to their vessel as they do - in essence, it is often more complex than that statement alone makes it sound. By developing a resonance with an entity in this way, we get a variation on the typical and classical version of posession, where the individual appears to change drastically without apparently going through the changes associated with classical posession. These people can experience vivid nightmares or possibly very pleasant dreams as the border between the individual and the posessing entity is less definable in the unconscious. They can take up new hobbies suddenly, or display new talents - and these not always positive. They may have memories that are not their own, and can be mistaken for past life memories.

Divine posession through invocation is a variation on the 'classical' theme as well, but is an act of devotion, a sacrifice of the invidiuals vessel, wherein the invited deity or other being safeguards the soul of the individual to be replaced when the posession ends. These can be very similar in the way that they manifest, but rather than a malaise and slow deterioration of the MBS complex and one's will to own it, the complex is vivified and exalted under the influence of the invited being - even a 'negative' entity. This is because it was not necessary to break down the will of the individual to own their vessel. Demonic posession therefore is not always ugly.

The actual act of posession is a matter of one entity rotating a portion of its being into resonance (like the rotation of a hypercube) with the vessel in question, and then 'infecting' or otherwise assimilating the vessel, which act manifests materially as the slow breaking down of the individual's will to posess their vessel (which is why a person undergoing posession or opression appears to have a 'dark cloud' hanging over or around their energy). The same thing happens in the case of divine posession (less a dark cloud and more of a spiritual 'halo'), but in that case the individual willingly opens their complex to allow assimilation seamlessly. This can still be harmful depending on the entity, if the individual decides suddenly - usually out of fear of death as the exhilaration is similar - that they do not wish to be posessed and a struggle ensues either purposefully or not. The assimilation of our typically rather low energy structure into that of a much higher energy structure is a delicate process, and when accomplished through brutality manifests physical deterioration, mental degradation (insanity in varying degrees), and spiritual harm (breaking down of the sense of purpose and connection). When the process is accomplished through invitation on the part of the individual and then interrupted, nervous overload can manifest, various maniacal behiviours, and a similar kind of spiritual harm leading to a sense of isolation but usually due to a sense of aloofness or spiritual superiority.

So to why posession happens, the cases of invitation are somewhat obvious minus the individual reasons one might invite such an experience. When it comes to brutal posession, usually the individual was in some way 'asking for it', as callous as the phrase sounds. The individual may desire to be a martyr of some kind, thus abdicating their ownership over their own destiny (their purpose, hence, their spirit). They may be depressed for other reasons and feel that they are unworthy of their life, or that it is meaningless, etc. They may be physically ill and actually desire death, thus again abdicating ownership. Usually when a 'healthy' person is brutalized in this way someone has actually sent a demon or other spirit after them. In the case of mediumship the medium's MBS complex has a natural opening usually sympathetic to a particular range of entities - not all mediums therefore channel the same entities or are capable of, at least at first, channeling just any entity (channeling/posession I'm using as loosely interchangeable here). It is rare that a healthy individual who is not under attack by another person, who is not a natural medium, and who did not ask for posession in some way, is assaulted spiritually for the purpose of posession. One in a hundred million rare.

However, Whether by merit of our very own collective unconscious or as a universal facet of a Natural World we only barely get to see, there are malign forces in the universe, and those forces do seek to undermine the benign, whether as a personal grudge against mankind or against all conscious and spiritual beings, but for whatever reason these forces occaisionally pick out an individual that might somehow accomplish something to tip the scales or whose defeat in this manner can corrupt the 'timeline' as it were, that that person would have been critical in creating. It's nearly impossible for us to guess because unlike us materially focused human beings, many of these entities (not all, but many) see time on a greater scale than we do, and have the wherewithall and awareness to pick and choose tactically where to apply their influence. There are, however, just as many (at least, I should hope) benign forces which seek to countermand that influence, and thusly the spiritual aid these people need when they do come under attack is almost always 'coincidentally' available - and that is the nature of true spiritual warefare, for it is actually fairly rare for the universal forces of Malignance and Benificence to manifest so clearly for the eyes of us mere mortals. It does happen however, and it is terrifying.

I hope that answers some questions or at least stimulates some interesting thought.

peace

yes! goibniu and vagrant dreamer you guys are awesome!!! indeed it DOES stimulate the brain. I am just stewing over it a little myself before i add my two cents, give or take a day. still, I'm glad someone else offered up a comprehensive study; I'm still working on mine and being quite ignorant, i didn't want to take the lead. but you know, I DO agree with you about how said people 'invite' the spirits into themselves. yet, 'asking for it' and 'knowing what you will get' are two different things, and I think a standard rule for occultists is 'don't play with things you don't understand.' (note bene, there are always exceptions). any way, my point is...if anyone is likely to be possessed or harrassed or suffer from spiritual invasion and usurpation...it would be us, of the magick community.

therefore, I think it would be beneficial to explore the process as much as possible. not to produce a sense of paranoia or hysteria...but to look at it with calm and conscientious understanding. The more knowledge we have on the subject, the less fear and MORE control we have.

its interesting that you should mention the neck, G. i do not generally channel (it is not a comfortable practice) but for the couple times that I have done it on accident or when i was semi conscious ...yes, I have felt that i was entered through the throat, neck and clavicle area. the back, the left hand and back/ base of the head are also places that seem more vulnerable to that kind of encounter.
I was never without control however, and the last time it happened (which was last week actually), my physical body did in fact change. i got smaller. Still, because I was alone...I wonder how much of that was perception and how much of it was actually physical change. it would be interesting to document these changes and their overall effect on the individual. and if their are no lasting effects...why not?

also, as an intellectual I wonder about the process of adopting languages that one would otherwise not know. Are these older forms of current languages, or are they the languages we are unknowingly exposed to? for instance, in the fictional account of emily rose's possession...the prosecution lawyer suspected that Emily was exposed to the 5 or 6 languages on tape, in her school. i believe, that if they had invited an ancient languages expert in; this puzzle would have been resolved for good. as well all know, the mind is capable of amazing things, and one of the capabilities it has is an innate yet often dormant talent for linguistics. even the catholic church must take this into account when diagnosing the symptoms of demonic possession; exposure to languages, even if unstudied...disproves that the language is that of a separate inhabitant. However, if the language that is used, is not the same style and model of the language repeatedly exposed to the 'victim' than we could safely deduce that there is the possibility of true possession. Furthermore, surely the languages in question would potentially fit into a larger pattern of exposure from the culture the possessed person resides in. Americans, would naturally assume that a possessed person would know an array of greek, latin, or arabic and hebrew. But what would the Chinese culture assume a possessed person might know? The languages that the person is seemingly spontaneously using would be influenced by his or her perception of what 'possessed' entails, yes? Could this potentially prove that 'speaking tongues' is not all that remarkable a circumstance?


This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jun 16 2009, 03:34 PM

Speaking in tongues is a Christian practice that is not uncommon among some of the evangelical churches. I remember my mother stuck speaking in tongues for a whole day when I was a small boy. But I don't think that it is related to possession. It seems more related to aphasia, where there is something mucking up the part of the brain that controls speech. But speaking a language that is an actual language and that the speaker has never learned would be a sign of possession or channeling of a foreign spirit, certainly.

My knowledge of malevolent possession is sparse so I will leave that up to others to comment upon. As I mentioned the only personal experience with channeling is with communing with my totem animal during 'spirit walks.' In this I was always in control, but I perceived myself as metamorphing into my totem animal and feeling a strong other presence. The information I have received is non-verbal and hard to articulate. I didn't use any real ritual, just opening myself up and going into trance. The other thing is that I turned my energy into a homing beacon, you might say, to attract the totem spirit's attention. I expanded my energy and changed it to be more like the totem spirit's energy signature. Like attracts like.

I would add there are minor possession and major possession.
Minor possession is alot more common than most people realize. Its usually with lower power entities (like human spirits) that lodges itself in the person's aura. Its symptoms are usually some personality changes (not that personality changes automatically mean that person is possessed), mood swings, sometime mysterious illnesses shows up, etc. Its not like the movie The Exorcist or anything. Its alot easier to remove and less dramatic.

Major possessions. Are extremely rare. Much harder to dislodge the spirit. The victom may blank out. Alot more closer to the movie The Exorcist or Teh Ahunting of Emily Rose. But again this is extremely rare. etc.

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: Jun 20 2009, 06:54 AM

The Catholic Church, from which stem the main and best-known ideas about demonic possession, describes demonic possession as a state wherein the individual will is subdued in favor of that of the spirit. It is the will of the possessed, not his or her awareness, that the spirit controls.

A Catholic priest must receive approval from his bishop to perform an exorcism, and that approval is contingent upon the victim being utterly cleared of all psychotic disorders by a licensed professional.

Several rules apply here:

1. Possession is voluntary. The person must either invite or agree to allow the spirit to take control over his or her actions. There are various degrees of control offered, with full consensual possession being considered very rare.

2. Possession is the end-result of a process of courtship. This takes place according to a series of definite stages, according to Church teaching. There is an introduction of some sort called an "entry point", a period of harassment or temptation, and finally a request for the submission of the victim.

3. The exorcist does not expel the spirit, but calls upon the individual to reject its influence. This is fortified with prayers and so forth, but these are not, according to Catholic teaching, for the purpose of affecting the spirit so much as the victim for whom the exorcist prays. The decision to expel the spirit is, as with the initial acceptance of the spirit, in the hands of the victim.

Don't forget about multiple spirits entering either! Furthermore, as to this 'courtship' thing...yes, there is usually something already inherently different or compelling in the host's life style or personality etc. that brings them to this vulnerable or more desirable state of possession. I think it is deliciously debatable whether or not coercion and spiritual harassment is necessary or if a person could have a natural inclination to possession. What is the exact moment when the spirit isn't just attached to the person...but is actually 'inside'? Is it simply a matter of exerting its will uncontested? When is channeling full fledged possession?
I approve of the priest compelling the host rather than the secondary party to take up the power(denying influence to active expulsion...are they the same thing?). Enabling is rarely a good thing be it reality or delusion and it is good to give the credit/power/responsibility where it is due...however I am not sure that possession is always voluntary. Outside of the catholic perspective, is possession generally considered a voluntary act? What do you guys think?

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jun 23 2009, 11:41 PM

...however I am not sure that possession is always voluntary. Outside of the catholic perspective, is possession generally considered a voluntary act? What do you guys think?

I agree with you Valkyrie. In most anthropological accounts I have read its not voluntary.

I'm not sure why the Catholic Church takes that position that its voluntary????
The thing with the Catholic Church is that they have change positions on certain things through out its history. So we cant be sure if their position is true or not.

We know, i think instinctively, that will power IS a factor, and there ARE voluntary possessions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) and they do seem to be much more prevalent than the coerced cases. This being a cultural phenomenon particularly in respects to India. Here are two links that offer extremely interesting information that I think you guys would enjoy:

self-possession

medical anthropology and ethnography of spirit possession

What was particular interesting to me, was in both malign and benign cases, body contortion and abnormal behavior and seemingly super human strength/abilities were symptomatic of possession. The difference was the maliciousness perceived, and the length of time the spirits were 'housed'.

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jun 30 2009, 12:22 PM

We know, i think instinctively, that will power IS a factor, and there ARE voluntary possessions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) and they do seem to be much more prevalent than the coerced cases. This being a cultural phenomenon particularly in respects to India. Here are two links that offer extremely interesting information that I think you guys would enjoy:

I was refering to the Catholic Church's perception of people being possessed by malicious entities.

There are certainly involuntery possession of malicious entities in other cultures.

Now with benevolence & deliberate entity possession in other cultures it certainly exist.
Especially among animist cultures.
(Of course we all have seen Voodoo practitioners on tv go into trance.)

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: Jun 30 2009, 09:11 PM

jenfucius, (whom I have secretly nicknamed Delicious) i know what you were saying...i wasn't correcting you or being condescending...just adding onto your lines...er well perhaps a little over enthusiastically so i sounded like I was being contrarion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif) but not on purpose, i can't help it... I enjoy a good conversation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by valkyrie: Jun 30 2009, 10:24 PM

I'm not sure why the Catholic Church takes that position that its voluntary????

One of the better books on Church policy toward exorcism is Malachi Martin's "Hostage to the Devil." There are higher authorities on the matter in the Church, but Martin's work is more accessible to laity and is not disputed by them on doctrinal and technical issues regarding exorcism.

Whether he is correct or not, his thoughts on this subject have shaped the contemporary views on demonic possession and exorcism in America more than anyone else I could name.

To answer with his words, from the book:

"At every new step, and during every moment of possession, the consent of the victim is necessary, or possession cannot be successful. The consent may be verbal, but always involves choice of action. Once initial consent has been given, its withdrawal becomes more and more difficult as time goes on..."

"The first stage, the actual entry of Evil Spirit and the beginning of its personal influence within a person, appears always to be made by means of the spirit's knowledge of a trait of character or of some special interest or avocation of the victim..."

"Once the initial consent has been given, there follows a period in which the victim makes a series of practical personal judgments that profoundly alter him and prepare him for the next critical stage, when he will yield control..."

"Significantly, the option to relinquish all freedom of choice rests upon that very freedom guaranteed by God as long as the person chooses to be free. The choice can only be made by the person, it can never be made for him. If the fundamental option is made to relinquish that freedom of will, then possession has been accomplished in its most essential and conclusive step."

jenfucius, (whom I have secretly nicknamed Delicious) i know what you were saying...i wasn't correcting you or being condescending...just adding onto your lines...er well perhaps a little over enthusiastically so i sounded like I was being contrarion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif) but not on purpose, i can't help it... I enjoy a good conversation (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Hey no offence was taken Valkyrie. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

"Delicious" ha ha!

Its a good topic I must add! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/yahoo.gif)

This post has been edited by Jenfucius: Jul 1 2009, 05:30 PM

I think this is one of those situations where what you don't know can and will hurt you. If you don't know how possession works then I would speculate that your a lot less likely to do the right things to make yourself invulnerable to it. What would be the most effective things to make oneself immune to negative possession by an entity? Has anyone here read Hostage To The Devil by Malachi Martin?

This post has been edited by Horse: Sep 22 2009, 11:37 AM

wow what a cool thread! tons of neat input & ideas here. every post a little treasure trove (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I can relate some insight into positive or benign possession. As a rule of thumb, I am a very willful person, so I'm not really a fan of INvocation, preferring instead to work with Evocation for dealing with spirits, entities, etc. However there is one exception to this general rule, and that is with the being I alternatively call mentor or patron in forums, and much more intimate terms in private. Basically she is a deity or deity-like being, and my relationship with her is "extremely" intimate, in every possible sense of the word.

It could very well be said that there was a 'courtship' involved, but I think that is only natural between two beings. It's perhaps worth noting that she has related that she finds my willfulness to be an attractive trait, and that she encourages it. This is in contrast to some of what has been said about negative possession. She has encouraged me towards a life situation where I am not underneath any authority figures, as she has pointed out that this ill-fits where I am headed spiritually. By way of my relationship with her, I feel moved towards empowerment and enlightenment, not the opposite.

I mention her in the context of possession, because she has shared that the 'end game' result of my spiritual path with her, will be a sort of merger with her. A process which she and I have tinkered with on a limited scale. Of interest, is the fact that all of the time & effort involved in my path is largely focused on helping me to grow into such a role, rather than being overwhelmed by it. In other words, to be "assimilated" would be quick & easy, but detrimental to my own personal identity. So we take the long slow route of spiritual growth towards the goal, so that it is an entirely "additive" experience, instead of a "dilutive" one.

In terms of permission... well, I Love her. passionately. I don't think she is capable of being harmed, but if she were, I'd take a bullet for her without hesitation. She has a blank check from me, and she knows it. She has only ever cooperated with what has been described earlier in this thread as "light possession" though. Where I'm still basically driving the body, but I'm not alone in the vehicle. I say 'cooperated' because I have invited her to more make a more invasive if she wants, but she hasn't done so. It's pretty obvious to me that her interest in me is not in my body itself.

Actually I have found that there is no black & white difference between her being present or not. It is more a gradient. ranging from very minimal to very major awareness of her presence 'within'. In recent years, it could be said that I was more or less continuously invoking her. I suppose that might go back all the way to her and I first meeting, but i find it to be more a sort of matter of degree than a matter of present or not, so it is difficult to say. but in recent years her presence within ranged from mild-but-obvious, to fairly-major-presence. This I came to view as a process of gradually increasing a sort of harmonic resonance between her and I, such that we became less and less separate. There were many times when it was impossible to really tell where *I* stopped and she started, and I found that to be a very blissful experience actually, and sometimes erotic.

In some ways I viewed this as a sort of marriage, and I still do. I think of it as a good thing, and I am very happy about it. To say that I have experienced changes in personality, paradigm, lifestyle, religion, abilities, etc. as a result of my relationship with her would be an understatement.

Over the course of my learning through her. I have come to understand my eventual merger with her in a different light than I originally conceived of though. To simplify the matter greatly: she is an infinite being, or at least a being which is dually infinite and finite (affording her the capacity for a 'persona'). and the thing about infinite beings, is that they 'all' encompass 'everything'... and so basically, at the impersonal unindividuated infinite end of their reality, they are all 'one'. And so, in my path with her, I have come to understand that my ultimate goal is to harmonize the individual and infinite self, to become one with 'aum', even though still within a finite vessel. the version she teaches is slightly different than most eastern faiths which focus on depersonalization & nirvana, whereas she elevates a more bodhisattva-like state as the ultimate ideal, retaining both individuality and everything-ality in one paradoxical being... ie- a 'deity'. But that's neither here nor there. The point is, that I have come to understand that her intended merger between us is not just between the two of us, but between 'self' and 'all'. Which honestly, on a romantic level is a little bit of a letdown, I mean it seems a little less personally intimate than what I had originally envisioned. But I understand it, and look forward to it.

Interestingly, we are currently 'separated', and have been for a few months now. She has expressed that I've already been taught all I need to know to figure the rest out, and that I need to figure the rest out 'on my own'. That her continued influence would smother the process, interfere with the personal alchemy I am trying to achieve. After being so deeply entwined for so long, it is literally spiritually 'painful' to feel the emptiness of her not being there inside. Also, I miss her, a lot. For a short time I actually sank into a despair without her inside. But I quickly realized that to despair would only hurt her by way of her compassion for me, so I decided to suck it up and got my act together. As with every step of my path with her, I consented to this, and I do understand the necessity of it. So this is the part where I ride my bike without training wheels, we'll see if i can keep making good grades in class now that the class has no teacher. I'm reservedly confident (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bigwink.gif)

Some people in my life have felt uncomfortable about Her influence on me. I think people are naturally nervous about possession and the like. But my experience with her has been marked by personal growth and empowerment and development of will, rather than the opposite. And I have grown to be quite trusting of her. completely trusting actually. so far so good, and it's been 8 years.
___

anyway, this experience seems to very closely match some of what's been said, but differ greatly in other areas. I think that "possession" is something which varies 'a lot', and is very hard to pin down into one or two simple categories.
___

"don't mess with things you don't understand" was said somewhere in this thread (can't find it now), but I would argue with that sentiment. How do you come to understand anything without messing with things? Understanding, experience, preparedness... all follow bold exploration, they don't precede it (even though that would be handy and safer).
___

about the speaking in languages you don't know... I had a dream once which was pretty long, and it was entirely in german. This is interesting because I don't actually speak any german. but in the dream I understood it, and spoke it myself. The dream was from a time period about 300-600 years ago, based on clothing & such. And it was fairly interesting in content. In the dream I was basically 2 people, I was "me" in the modern me sense, but I was also the character in the dream, like a "me" which actually belonged in that setting & time. I regard it as a past life insight. Anyway, the point is, that I don't think that you have to be possessed to have access to a language which you would not normally know. Though that could certainly be the case, there are other explanations as well, such as past life experience.
___

on the topic of unwanted possession... there has been much talk about permission, consent, etc. I am not sure I agree. Humanity, to steal my mentor's term, is a "semi-sentient species". Our minds are only very minimally self aware. The subconscious and superconscious aspects of our psyche are much larger than the regular 'consciousness' which we generally understand as being our mind. It's like an iceberg, only the tip is sticking out where we can see it, and the much larger portion is below the surface mysterious to us. And so, to a more fully aware being, a human seems "marginally sentient" or marginally self aware. We are already familiar with the fact that through this larger unconscious portion of mind, we can be hypnotized and made to do things we would not normally do. There are two key concepts about hypnosis that a person should try to understand :
1) a person can be hypnotized without their awareness or consent.
2) a person can be made to do things which they very much would not consciously like to do, while hypnotized.
There has been a lot of talk about it being impossible to be made to do something you wouldn't want to do while hypnotized, but for the most part, this is just comforting lipservice. It's like the 3-fold law in wicca. I can personally vouch for the potential for hypnosis & trance to make someone do something they would otherwise very much not want to do. And that's just using purely mundane physical hypnosis methods. Add an entity which can read your mind, influence your emotions directly, whisper thoughts into your preconscious, etc. and you've got a recipe for a very frail attachment to your own psychological self control. It is easy to feel otherwise, either because it is comforting, or because of a lack of experience with any obvious 'influence' on your sense of self determination. But I would submit that this is a false confidence. looking past the outward appearances, it's not hard to see a great deal of "will bullying" going on here in this level of reality. And it is that much more prevalent in an out of body setting where there is no 'hardwired' physical reinforcement for the psyche to fall back on. In my own spiritual paradigm, the frailty of self determined free will, is the single greatest danger/weakness to humankind. I have personally assaulted free will, and all I can say is that it is 'frightful' in it's effectiveness. It's very discomforting to realize just how 'not hard' it is. Its a form of magick which I have an approach avoidance conflict with. I do consider it to house important insights, particularly into protecting oneself. But I also have some ideological issues with it, and I find practicing it to be very paradigmatically 'jarring'. I do not currently practice it with living humans. But the point is... well, hmmm...

Imagine you're walking down the street, and you have a wallet and cellphone, etc. in your pockets. Now, you know that you do NOT want to just give your wallet away to a stranger, right? I mean, a very significant part of you would feel very uncomfortable and unhappy with that, right? now watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4y5iX4uRY
and bear in mind that derren brown (the hypnotist/NLPist in the video) isn't even using any metaphysical or magical techniques. So if derren brown can do that to a complete stranger, what could you expect from a thousand year old entity which is bigger & stronger psychicly than a human, and can read your mind right down to what color pajamas you wore when you were 2 years old? ...yeah
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Personally I'd be curious to see more talk about "walk-ins", as that seems to be a scenario which breaks the mold a bit. how do walkins occur? are they sudden? does something lead up to them? is it another human spirit/soul doing the possession? how does it all work? And, curiously, how does the energy body (chakras, etc.) work in a person who is a walk-in and technically not 'at home' in the body?
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for that matter, do you feel it is possible for a living person to willfully possess another living person?
or perhaps for two consenting individuals to possess each other?
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also curious about identical twins and their souls? what's the relationship there?
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or how about 'double souled' people? its an idea i've heard around..
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anyways, neat thread.

i think you make many good points, which deserve to be read...im reviving this post.

Add an entity which can read your mind, influence your emotions directly, whisper thoughts into your preconscious, etc. and you've got a recipe for a very frail attachment to your own psychological self control. It is easy to feel otherwise, either because it is comforting, or because of a lack of experience with any obvious 'influence' on your sense of self determination. But I would submit that this is a false confidence. looking past the outward appearances, it's not hard to see a great deal of "will bullying" going on here in this level of reality.

well, i don't doubt for a moment, that that there IS a tremendous amount of 'persuasion' going on in the physical world...but then my sense of confidence comes straight from my understanding of my higher self; i know my higher self has a higher intent and WILL that is unlikely allow me to be swayed by the whispers of petty spirits (or at least minimally so). I suppose that my overall connection and conscientiousness to regard my higher will power with the holy reserve it so desires and demands, would determine whether or not i was easily possessed to do things beyond my spiritual motive and gain. my guess is, one would have to be pretty shut off from their higher self not to have that kind of control? i dunno. just something to chew on.

for that matter, do you feel it is possible for a living person to willfully possess another living person?
or perhaps for two consenting individuals to possess each other?

i know this can happen. it is very confusing and incredibly uncomfortable...but it IS possible. i don't recommend it though.

also curious about identical twins and their souls? what's the relationship there?
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well i don't know about 'identical twins' but i am a fraternal twin...and me and my brother you could say are kindred spirits. we both decided in the process of reincarnating that we would be born and grow up together...and assist each other with our lessons and our spiritual endeavors. it has well been worth while thus far.

or how about 'double souled' people? its an idea i've heard around..

you mean like kindred or certain otherkind? im kinda curious about this. im not sure what you mean.

well, i don't doubt for a moment, that that there IS a tremendous amount of 'persuasion' going on in the physical world...but then my sense of confidence comes straight from my understanding of my higher self; i know my higher self has a higher intent and WILL that is unlikely allow me to be swayed by the whispers of petty spirits (or at least minimally so). I suppose that my overall connection and conscientiousness to regard my higher will power with the holy reserve it so desires and demands, would determine whether or not i was easily possessed to do things beyond my spiritual motive and gain. my guess is, one would have to be pretty shut off from their higher self not to have that kind of control? i dunno. just something to chew on.

I don't disagree at all. I'd just point out that not a lot of people are all that in touch with their higher self. And I'd submit that even if one is, it would still require due diligence to avoid influence. And, if we were really completely in tune with our higher selves, then in my belief structure, we'd effectively transcend our current spiritual state as human beings. So at least in my belief system, most of us have a ways to go yet with higher self integration.

it would be worth testing the extent to which your higher self work protects against this sort of influence. you could try with a hypnotist sometime, just to see how that goes, and get a feel for the sensation of having your conscious will tipped over. Better to proof things out in a friendly setting eh?

but ya, i do basically agree with everything you said.

i know this can happen. it is very confusing and incredibly uncomfortable...but it IS possible. i don't recommend it though.

comfort isn't a very important thing to me. If I can learn from it, i'm interested by default.
but your point is taken. I guess the question, for me at least, would become 'is there something worthwhile to be learned from it?'.

well i don't know about 'identical twins' but i am a fraternal twin...and me and my brother you could say are kindred spirits. we both decided in the process of reincarnating that we would be born and grow up together...and assist each other with our lessons and our spiritual endeavors. it has well been worth while thus far.

hmmm, well i was more thinking of identical twins, since they start out life as one single being, and then split into two. I've heard some mystic traditions suggest that they share a common soul or something like that. Honestly I'm not sure I buy that, but it is interesting, and loosely related to the topic.

iyou mean like kindred or certain otherkind? im kinda curious about this. im not sure what you mean.

was more thinking of people who contain 2 human souls in one body, lifelong or long term.
also interested in walk-ins.

This post has been edited by Kath: Dec 13 2009, 08:20 AM