Astrology A Sin? Options

Some of you may notice I'm currently researching lots about the "allowed and not allowed" aspects of magick. More over the "good" or "bad" perspective I'm forced to take being a loyal follower of God and Jesus Christ. This explains why everything I'm involved with now is strictly research. Research and understanding concerning how potentially living and participating a certain area of magick will effect my "good person status" in Gods eyes. I intend to ask questions here a lot regarding things to which I cannot find answers to through other means. I need to listen to arguments that would allow me to make a choice for myself. By the time I have completely gone through it all an established a sort of "end" to these types of questions, there will be enough information on the forum for people in exact situations as mine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/hideingbhindcurtian.gif)
So, unfortunately I've witnessed on several accounts that astrology is a sin. In fact, I've heard that ALL forms of divination are sins and should be completely avoided to stay in God's good graces. As most of you can understand, this has halted my magick research as of now seeing as though Astrology eventually intertwines itself our magick learnings. Again, I have heard lots on the argument of astrology being a sin, I must hear a counterargument to make my own choice. Or I must hear agreements to it being sin. Any help is appreciated as always. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

Greetings!
Although I'm not a Xtian (pardon the contraction) I have had many dealings with such and I'd like to offer an opinion, if I may...?
Please remember that alot of the 'Rules' about dealing with the occult have come down through the interpretation of many mens ideas of what is permitted and what is not. There have been many very pious heretics within the church and there will be again...and again...ad nauseum. Interpreting 'Gods' will is a full time profession for many. I happen to believe that the direct route is far more satisfying. If the prohibition comes from the new testament then you are trying to satisfy some very warped individuals! (again, IMHO!) Listen to the teachings of Jesus (if he is your savior) and do not pay attention to the holy roller set. The Catholic church has a whole branch (Jesuits) that are trained to use exorcism....and, btw, any number of Popes practiced Magic and Demonology. There still are a number of Holy Orders that resort to what they refer to as 'White' magic (ie divination and treasure seeking) when the need arises. The actual rituals performed by a priest who knows what he is about can be considered Ceremonial Magic! It all boils down to what/how you interpret the Word(s) of God to be and live your life accordingly. Good Luck...I wish you well! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I also am not a christian, but In Genesis 1:14 it says, "God said, 'There shall be lights in the heavenly sky to divide between day and night. They shall serve as omens and define festivals, days and years.'"

That sounds to me like God intended the movements of the stars to be significant in our lives, to give us insight into God's will for us personally and for the ages - after all the bible may be quite a story and for many answers a great deal of moral questions, but for all other aspects of God's will on earth, we are left in the dark. Do you think that God truly intended to leave us hanging in that respect, ignorant of his plan for the world that we live in and for our individual lives?

Originally, Jesus (Christ) was a jewish radical who simply had a different view on judaic religion, and very likely had a poor view of the political nature of the religion at the time as they negotiated away their culture and faith with the romans. It's important to take the bible and everything in it in context with it's place in history and culture. However, the point is that Jesus never suggested that astrology was a sin. And in the old testament there are references to astrology, palmistry, and other forms of divination, and the jewish people of the time were a very mystical culture. Take jewish kabbalah for instance.

While of course judaism and christianity are different religions, it should be remembered that they have become more different over time - originally they were very much the same religion, plus a slightly more individually compassionate philosophy on the part of Jesus.

I suppose I have complaints on the suggestion that you need to do anything to remain a 'good person' in god's eyes, but then, I'm not a christian so I suppose my views are founded on different understanding of the divine.

peace

The Catholic Church has been highly suppressive of the attribution of any sort of influence of a particular nature to the activity of the planets. This is on two major premises:

1. Astrology is all invented fiction, and belief to the contrary is an invitation for the delusions of the devil. Indeed, a very large amount of the earliest Christian-era demonology texts rely heavily upon astrology.

2. Astrology is historicallty a major principle behind the organization of the State, which was also historically "idolatrous." All the great nations, whose knowledge of astrology was so vast, were to be regarded as barbaric and ignorant, their ways and lore to be discarded.

The Church encouraged astronomy until it became dangerous to their position in regard to the supremacy of mankind, but in general it supports astronomy as a valid and not-sinful pursuit. The Bible itself speaks often of seasons and several times of astronomy, but astrology is nonexistent within it.

Nonetheless the Church preserves some of the very finest astrological archives. There are truly rare gems of art, math, and language kept deep in the Church's vaults and many are available to their scholars. The study of astrology is not sinful, but to apply it diligently to your life (according to them) leads to moral decay.

Other religious groups have differing views. It's perfectly acceptable to Allah!

So, unfortunately I've witnessed on several accounts that astrology is a sin. In fact, I've heard that ALL forms of divination are sins and should be completely avoided to stay in God's good graces. As most of you can understand, this has halted my magick research as of now seeing as though Astrology eventually intertwines itself our magick learnings. Again, I have heard lots on the argument of astrology being a sin, I must hear a counterargument to make my own choice. Or I must hear agreements to it being sin. Any help is appreciated as always. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

Not to impugn on anyone else's beliefs, but in my own mind the idea that studying or observing astrological motion is sinful is patently absurd.

The reason why I say that is because to me, astrology is an entirely mechanistic system; at the risk of sounding blasphemous, I don't actually see anything inherently spiritual about it whatsoever. Thus, to call it spiritually dangerous is like saying you're in danger of being possessed from getting into your car and driving it to work in the morning.

The attainment of knowledge about the workings of the universe is something that has tended to be discouraged by Catholicism more or less in general, and you'll tend to find that it's actually those things that can offer you the most useful information that are the most rigidly suppressed or considered taboo. The main reason for this is because they understand very well the truth contained in the Gospel of John itself; that the truth will set you free. Freedom is the direct opposite of what Catholicism has ever been about, and you only need to look at their history to see that, despite their claims to the contrary.

The Vatican in my own mind is and always has been a fundamentally political institution in nature; not a genuinely spiritual one. It is concerned with the attainment of political power and influence, and the only reason why Christianity has ever been part of the equation is simply because the people who initially formed the Church discovered that Christianity could potentially be an extremely effective path to the attainment of that goal.

Alright I'm going to save you a LOT of trouble. Priest, I know exactly what you are going through and I did the exact same thing by doing heavy research long before actually practicing magick. I myself am a Christian and I too had virtually the same concerns as you. In fact, it was astrology that finally convinced me that there is more to spiritual existence than what is specifically outlined in the Bible. There are several things I would like to point out that influenced my decision, and some things that reinforced my decision to practice magick. Trust me I'll be saving you a lot of research in this post because I've done it myself.

The Canon

First off was a group called the Canon. This group was commissioned by Flavius Valerius Aurelius Constantinus, better known as Constantine I, or simply Constantine. Constantine, Emporor of Rome at the time, brought together the clergy from the many different strains, variations, and churches of Christianity that were springing up. His goal was to unify the Christians under a single doctrine and prevent it from being diluted. This has several merits, but also some very, very steep flaws, particularly its leading to the formation of the Catholic Church and later the Crusades. But I'll only briefly get into that later since it's off-topic.

The Canon was constructed by Constantine to be very much like the Roman Senate, each priest having a vote on what doctrines would later become the 27 books of the New Testament. There were literally HUNDREDS of doctrines and manuscripts written about Jesus, what he said and did, and the apostles and what they taught. It was the job of the Canon to weed out all "false" doctrines and agree among themselves what Christians should believe in in the future.

Given the sheer magnitude of writings and the fact we are left with only 27 originals, it is apparent that the Canon aired on the side of caution in its jugdements by being quick to throw out manuscripts. As I digged deeper, I found that a lot was left out of the final version of the New Testament. Have you ever wondered why Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are the only ones out of the 12 diciples to write The Gospel According To's? What about Peter? Sure we have two of his letters in the New Testament (I and II Peter), but no Gospel. And what about the letters? I doubt Peter and Paul were basically the only ones who wanted to keep contact with others.

Guess what? There's more. A lot more.

Even if you take a stance from a Bible-thumping fundamentalist view, you cannot deny history, because there was a Gospel According to Peter, a Gospel According to Mary, a Gospel According to James -- to just name a few. And there were far more letters written by the apostles circulating about than what we are left with. The Revelation of John (or simply Revelations), was nearly thrown out by the Canon and replaced with the Gospel According to Peter. In fact, the early Eastern Orthodox Church didn't recognize the Book of Revelation as part of the Bible and left it out despite what the Canon decreed.

All of this proved to me that there was much more to reality and spirituality that what I was traditionally taught.

Now for a short overview of how far one man's actions can reach. Due to Constantine's overzealousness about being a Christian, he eventually outlawed all other religions besides Christianity and established the Catholic Church, complete with the Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, etc. Most Christians today agree that what Constantine did was wrong because people should have a choice what religion they should follow. Constantine also started the Crusades centuries after his death due to his claim of seeing a cross in the sky with the message "In this sign, you will conquer" written on it. A few centuries later, this lead to the formation of the Knights of the Red Cross, the Knights Templar, etc., etc.

The future Popes took Constantine's "vision" as a cue to begin invasions and reclaim the Holy Lands. Personally, I think Constantine had a problem with "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (Matthew 19:19 ) so he made up the vision because he wanted religious backing for his war efforts. A millenium later the Inquision was formed from this domino effect using the religious wars as justification bloody purge because they were all supposedly "fighting for God," or in the case of the Inquisition, "torturing for God." All they did was put words in God's mouth and claimed He said things He didn't say and sanctioned acts that were actually unholy. The only reason the Inquision even survived is because of the illiterate masses who couldn't read the book for themselves. But I'm going on a long tirade. Back to topic.

Astrology and Divination

A year or two after establishing that there was more than what the traditional Bible says, a friend introduced me to astrology. Prior to this, I didn't believe astrology had any merit at all. I thought they were simply generalizations so vague that it could be applied to anyone. Man was I ever wrong. Go to this website http://astro.cafeastrology.com/cgi-bin/astro/natal and type in your birthplace, birthdate, and time of day you were born, then read. You'll be amazed at how specific it gets. And if you're having doubts, put in a random birthday and read the results. I can guarantee you'll say "That's not me at all." Cafeastrology.com is the best astrology site I've found so far. It is there that I learned about the detailed planetary aspects of the Zodiac.

So, after establishing the extreme accuracy of astrology (and not getting it from Joe-Wannabe-Astrologer), I thought "Lucifer couldn't have done that; it's too accurate." Besides, who created the stars? Who created the planets? Furthermore, does Lucifer have dominion over the other planets and stars? Nope. The Bible states that Lucifer has dominion over the earth, not the planets and stars. Also, Vagrant Dreamer is 100% correct in citing Genisis 1:14 and highlighting "They shall serve as omens." Imperial Arts is correct as well that the Catholic Church's anti-astrology policy was just propaganda to keep themselves in power.

Other forms of divination are found in the Bible too. Let's take a good look at the many verses regarding this. Even Joseph practiced hydromancy (divination by looking into pools of water or wine).

Genisis 44:5 and 15
5. Is this not it (the silver cup) in which my lord (Joseph) drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth?
15. And Joseph said unto them, What deed is this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

Using a silver container for water was common practice in ancient times, for those who could afford it, as a means of divination. Some still practice it today, and some instead pool water in steel basins because it reflects just as well.

Numbers 27:21
And he shall stand before Eleazar the priest, who shall ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim before the Lord:

Urim and Thummim were two stones used by the High Priest to, for all intents and purposes, perform divination. It is not clear in the Scriptures whether these divices were cast like lots or stared into like dark mirrors. In some instances they seem to be cast like lots or dice, but others refer to them being set in a breast plate. In either case, divination is obviously occuring.

1 Samuel 28:6
And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

Daniel 5:11-12
11.There is a man...(blah, blah, blah great guy)...the king Nebuchadnezzar, thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;
12. (blah, blah, blah more "exelent"s and "great"s) ...let Daniel be called, and he will show the interpretation.

One set of verses that is regularly cited by Christians against divination is Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
10. There shall not be found among you anyone who maketh his son or daughter pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of the times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11. Or a charmer, or a consulter of familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord.

What most fail to mention is right from verse ONE it clearly stated that these rules applied to the Levites only. AND if you look at verse 14 it says the following:

14. For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of the times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Verse 14 clearly states that any non-Levi, which is 99.9% of the world, could be an "observer of the times" (astrologer) or be a divener (one who practices divination). The High Priest also seems to have been an exception to this rule as well since they used the Urim and Thummim.

Ceremonial Magick (my personal favorite)

Yes! There is even a Biblical reference condoning the conjuration of Lucifer!

Ezekiel 28:17
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

The Keys of Solomon the King were written by Solomon (the oldest reference to it, however, dates back to the 1st century B.C.; these are very old records) as a way to conjure up spirits, and later manuscrips were heavily influenced by the Lesser Key of Solomon to conjure additional spirits. If you're interested, look up verses 13-19 to see just how much of a bitch God makes out of Lucifer in the end.

Closing

Whew. I am beat. That took 5 hours to type, check, and look up those specific references, and I didn't even mention everything I wanted! There are lost Old Testament books, additional divination references, etc. but this is a long post as it is and I'm very tired. But before I go I'll do a quick review:

1. There's more than just the Bible, even in its own collection of manuscripts.
2. Even with what little we are left with, there are Biblical references to divination.
3. Astrology is exceedingly accurate, and God did make it after all.
4. It's part of Lucifer's punishment to be at the beck and call of man.
5. Constantine was an ass who was the epitome of "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

It's not much of a clincher, but considering how tired I am, it'll do. Final words (for this post):

You interested in magick? Go for it. I'm going to catch some Z's. ZzZzZzzzz.....


This post has been edited by Slayden: Jan 26 2008, 06:56 AM

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QUOTE(esoterica @ Jan 26 2008, 12:04 PM) 36726
i'd like to compliment slayden on that marvelous post...

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I second that to the highest degree. *praise*

I'm very satisfied with the explanations given here by everyone as it has indeed allowed a significant push in my ideology of the subject at hand. In regards to your post Slayden, I am amazed by your generosity in taking that amount of time to share this invaluable information with us. Indeed, it has placed a better understanding, a more solid foot hold if you will, in my learnings. I only hope others, searching for answers to questions like these finds this thread early in their studies =P
I still need time to process the all the information given here and to understand them, though know that all of you have truly allowed me to advance to some degree. Thank you!

There are three maps called "life". One is made through astrology, one is made through science, the last is made by God. I think I'd choose the last one.

There are three maps called "life". One is made through astrology, one is made through science, the last is made by God. I think I'd choose the last one.

I'd very much choose the last one as well... Interesting you should say this, where do you grab this ideology from? Is this how it was meant to be? If I were to practice magick and made use of astrology and still believed and did mostly everything according to God would I be forsaken? Many people live their life through science however... Is this wrong? When you identify this aspect through 3 specific forms of life, it feels as though one must choose a single form and stick with it seeing as though God would not have any "mixed" cooperation of how you live your life. I say this in the mind that God is all, so to make your life through him, astrology and science is simply folly. But then again how many people in the world have lived due to advances in science... tumor removals, heart transplants etc. Please explain =)

I see I am going to have to tread lightly with this post. But I'm afraid it's going to be long.

Priest, I can see that you are very much thirsty to expand your spiritual life beyond the "safe zone" established by orthodox, mainstream religion. I applaude you in this, as this takes great courage, and a willingness to overcome a lot of fear, self-doubt and uncertainty. It is a step into the unknown, an unknown labeled as sinful, even evil, in the eyes of God.

I can speak with some, albeit indirect, experience concerning what you are going through.
My wife is a Christian, but in the years we've been together, she has shed an enormous amount of baggage and crap she took on since accepting Christ, baggage attached to the religion. This was a very scary process for her, but now, she is confident that despite all that she had let go of, the flame of Christ's love still burns just as brightly in her heart. From what she has said, this is the key. Approach your path with love and an open heart and mind, not fear. If you truly accept Christ and let him into your heart, his light will guide you, and you will know the right path. Not from what others tell you.

Now, from my point of view, if God is to be approached only by one way, then this would have to be a God very narrow in scope. Sort of contradicts God's nature, no? I believe that God, the eternal Spirit, is so infinitely vast, so all-encompassing, so incomprehensible and inexpressible that no one belief system can EVER pin God down. All things being equal, every path to God is a valid one.

Now, on the subject of God's nature, I also do not believe God has any characteristics befitting a human being. I am a Hermetic, and from this personal standpoint, I believe that the notion of God as a superior being to all other beings, separate and distinct in and of itself, judging others, dispensing punishment and reward is an unfortunate error, and is the source of most problems in religion. When we think of God in these terms, it is all too easy to ascribe to this being human attributes and human standards of judgment, and to then to pretend one knows what God wants and what God doesn't from us. IMHO, this is true idolatry. And it is serves as the basis for mass social and political control.

Rather, think of all that is, all that exists, as waves on the ocean. You, me, the computer, these words, the table, all are waves, but where does the wave end and the ocean begin? (On the subject of astrology, the "cosmic energy" of the planets are just larger currents)

There's a great Sufi parable on God. There is a large elephant being examined by a group of blind men. One felt his side and proclaimed that an elephant is like a wall. Another felt the tusk and exclaimed it was like a spear, another felt the trunk and thought it like a snake, another felt its large leg and said it was very much like a tree, yet another felt the ear and thought it foolish others did not realize the elephant is like a fan, and so on and so on. But none of them see the elephant. All of them are wrong, but each one, from his standpoint was perfectly right. Your very perceptions, and your very experience is divine.

To practice magick is to slowly come to realize the divine through your own being, that you are the kingdom of God. Although you may never see the elephant in its wholeness, your feeling the elephant is the elephant feeling itself through you, that you are God experiencing itself through itself. To realize this completely is the task of the Great Work.

So, all that being said, I hope you can appreciate my feelings that plainsight's notion is part of the baggage you cannot take on if you are to go any further. Besides, not very long ago, science, God and astrology all enjoyed a very happy union.

You offer a very calm and very intuitive overview of the subject, flyingmojo. It's quite uplifting, I feel reluctant to not follow it without question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) The examples you provide make very much sense and I thank you. In the hopes of not dragging this thread along, I ask a final question whereas I will take all that has been shown here and integrate it the best way I can.
One thing stuck out to me and made me a bit uneasy, I'm not sure of it's meaning.

It is a step into the unknown, an unknown labeled as sinful, even evil, in the eyes of God.

Perhaps you meant something different than what comes to mind here though this sounds to me as though you say it is in fact sin and to continue I must accept that and let it go. Forgive me if I misinterpreted it I'm quite desperate for answers as you can well see. Thank you all again.

No, no, I most certainly did not mean that it is sinful or evil in the eyes of God, but that it is only labeled as such, based on the human standards of judgment attributed to God, mostly for the purpose of mass social control. Magick puts your own powers, the powers of Nature and the spiritual world in the hands of the practitioner, placing the responsibility of personal evolution and growth in that person's own hands. No one can do it for you. No one can intercede on your behalf. And the divine is meant to be known, to be experienced, not just to be believed in. Do you really think that the church would want people to believe that that kind of personal power and knowledge is ok? Of course not, they would try to stamp it out and have you in fear. People who are afraid are most easily controlled. The more you know God, the more you come to know yourself, your true self, your inner nature, beneath all the masks and illusions we hide behind. Then no one, not even yourself (most importantly yourself), can control you.

You keep bringing up concerns about how God may see you or judge you, and I understand that. However, when someone loves you, truly loves you, that person sees who you really are, beneath everything else. Not only does God see that, but God wants you to see that, especially since that inner nature, that true core of your being, of who you are is forever at one with God. In magick, this is called the Holy Guardian Angel. Union with the Angel, with your own inner, eternal divinity is the goal of magick. To truly know yourself as God knows you, and to then realize that there is and never was any separation between you and the divine.

God gave you intelligence, heart, intuition, desire, etc for a reason, and not to test your obedience to "God's will", or God's will according to man. That leap of faith into the unknown is what you were meant to do.

One of my favorite pieces of inspirational wisdom on this subject comes from a section of the Corpus Hermeticum, Mind Unto Hermes. I hope you don't mind, but I really feel like posting it here, since it's quite relevant.

If, then, thou dost not make thyself like unto God, thou canst not know Him. For like is knowable unto like [alone].

Make, [then,] thyself to grow to the same stature as the Greatness which transcends all measure; leap forth from every body; transcend all time; become Eternity <literally, Aeon>; and [thus] shalt thou know God.

Conceiving nothing is impossible unto thyself, think thyself deathless and able to know all - all arts, all sciences, the way of every life.

Become more lofty than all height, and lower than all depth. Collect into thyself all senses of [all] creatures - of fire, [and] water, dry and moist. Think that thou art at the same time in every place - in earth, in sea, in sky; not yet begotten, in the womb, young, old, [and] dead, in after-death conditions.

And if thou knowest all these things at once - times, places, doings, qualities, and quantities; thou canst know God.

21. But if thou lockest up thy soul within thy body, and dost debase it, saying: I nothing know; I nothing can; I fear the sea; I cannot scale the sky; I know not who I was, who I shall be - what is there [then] between [thy] God and thee?

I'd very much choose the last one as well... Interesting you should say this, where do you grab this ideology from? Is this how it was meant to be? If I were to practice magick and made use of astrology and still believed and did mostly everything according to God would I be forsaken? Many people live their life through science however... Is this wrong? When you identify this aspect through 3 specific forms of life, it feels as though one must choose a single form and stick with it seeing as though God would not have any "mixed" cooperation of how you live your life. I say this in the mind that God is all, so to make your life through him, astrology and science is simply folly. But then again how many people in the world have lived due to advances in science... tumor removals, heart transplants etc. Please explain =)

There will be a day when man changes the stars and astrology becomes ambiguous.

There will be a day when man changes the stars and astrology becomes ambiguous.

That day may not come. Changing the stars is big work, and there's no guarantee we'll develop technology for such a thing.

Besides that, the idea behind astrology is that the rays of the heavenly bodies create energetic changes in the earth's field of energy, the energy we live in and experience as a fish living in water. If the theory is true, then no matter where we go we'll be exposed to these rays - from stars, and from the planets surrounding whatever place we colonize, should we eventually do so.

In my opinion god is the manifest and the unmanifest, the "alpha and omega" if you will. If you're more hebrew inclined, the "Aleph to Tav" - both the originator of manifestation and the mirror that reflects it back into divine emptiness. Therefore, God is in the planets, too, and his will is manifest through them as it is through everything else, including science. I don't know who said you have to choose between astrology, science, or God's plan, but there is only God's plan - it is simply far too vast and transcendentally complicated that to call it a 'plan' from the mortal point of view of the word oversimplifies it to the point where individuals think they can know what that plan is. No matter how enlightened or spiritually aware you become, you never will - you'll only ever get far enough to comprehend what you are supposed to do next, and maybe what comes next for others or the world at the most.

peace

That day may not come. Changing the stars is big work, and there's no guarantee we'll develop technology for such a thing.

Besides that, the idea behind astrology is that the rays of the heavenly bodies create energetic changes in the earth's field of energy, the energy we live in and experience as a fish living in water. If the theory is true, then no matter where we go we'll be exposed to these rays - from stars, and from the planets surrounding whatever place we colonize, should we eventually do so.

Are we not also of existence? of stars? of earth? One only needs to change himself to change the cosmos.

Are we not also of existence? of stars? of earth? One only needs to change himself to change the cosmos.

This is much the same as proclaiming "I am God" upon learning the "All is in the ALL, and the ALL is in All."

We are also of God - that does not mean we can change God.

Being of existence, the stars, and the earth, does not mean we may change them. The Transcendent Being may have such power, but will recognize the perfection of God's intentional creation of the Cosmos, and will know that it can do no better than that.

This saying of yours is an unqualifiable zen koan, I believe. Only valuable in it's meaninglessness.

These three paths, Science, Astrology, and God, compare to materiality, psychology, and spirituality. One is as good as any other, each has there place, and God will not forsake anyone who chooses any - or all three.

Materiality rests on security, the advancement of material things - not necessarily money; the conservation of natural resources, the curing of diseases, solving hunger, etc. are materialistic advancements.

Psychology (as governed by Astrology) is the study and practice of the inner psychological model and the application of that knowledge to realize and develop one's potential, and navigate in harmony with the flow of cosmic (divine) energies present between the inner and outer worlds of Materiality and Spirituality.

Spirituality is ultimately to abstain from materiality and focus entirely on the spiritual existence. If we all focused only on this, we would not last long.

The paths exist because we must have a place in which to live and thrive, we must understand our relationships to one another and to our world, and our places and paths in and through it, and we must be able to receive in some way the light of divinity to do the work of unifying the higher with the lower, and working as cocreators with God.

Without any one of the them, the system falls apart. You can choose one, or two, or all three; no matter what you do, you are playing a part in existence, and you are making it possible for the system to keep operating, and allowing the potential to unfold.

God forsakes no one - even those who work against this system consciously, because they are the universal resistance against which the pressure of manifestation is set, so as to engender a universal balance within which a stable existence may manifest.

peace

This is much the same as proclaiming "I am God" upon learning the "All is in the ALL, and the ALL is in All."

Not quite, but almost, Genesis 1:27.

We are also of God - that does not mean we can change God.

Incorrect. Surely freewill is not reserved only for people.

Being of existence, the stars, and the earth, does not mean we may change them. The Transcendent Being may have such power, but will recognize the perfection of God's intentional creation of the Cosmos, and will know that it can do no better than that.

I am of dust, yet I can write words in the earth with my fingers. When I die I become dust again. People are part of the earth. People have freewill, whether the placement of stars have influence or not, is only to the point where its part of out environment; this dwells more into science.

Spirituality is ultimately to abstain from materiality and focus entirely on the spiritual existence. If we all focused only on this, we would not last long.

This depends on one's belief; whether spirituality teaches how to manage material things (.....baggage) in one's life (greed,generosity,etc...) or to abstain from it as stated.

Re:Is astrology a sin? Yes. I forgive you though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm tired....I'm going to bed.

Not quite, but almost, Genesis 1:27.

Being made in the image of God does not make one God - there is a difference between being a part of something, a manifestation of something, and something containing that potential within itself, and actually being it.

Incorrect. Surely freewill is not reserved only for people.

Theoretically all of creation has free will. But to imply one can change God, implies that it is Changeable, and therefore, not Absolute. You can change your relationship to God, your point of view of God, but you cannot change God.

I am of dust, yet I can write words in the earth with my fingers. When I die I become dust again. People are part of the earth. People have freewill, whether the placement of stars have influence or not, is only to the point where its part of out environment; this dwells more into science.

There is no implication anywhere that the planetary bodies dominate one's free will. It's a question of cosmic currents - you work with it or against it, it's your choice (free will). They are the arbiters of Karma, not masters of our lives.

This depends on one's belief; whether spirituality teaches how to manage material things (.....baggage) in one's life (greed,generosity,etc...) or to abstain from it as stated.

The difference between the two is a conjunction of Materiality and Spirituality, whereas the other is strictly spirituality. All traditions (note, all of them) recognize varying levels of Asceticism ranging from the virtuous citizen to the hermit or monk. I believe the most balanced path is one conjoining all three aspects, Body, Mind, and Spirit, personally.

Re:Is astrology a sin? Yes. I forgive you though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Strictly speaking within this professed christian tradition, I think you don't have the authority to forgive me, nor do I require your forgiveness, correct?

Astrology was meant to be a conduit between man and the divine, a way of interpreting in a legible way the will and movement of God in Creation. Astrology played a large role in the act of prophecy, in the temple in Israel, (ref: Book of Prophets, Old Testament). Supposedly God laid down laws based on astrological 'omens' regarding the calendar, sabbats, holy days, etc., and curiously enough, there's a strong astronomical coincidence between the books of the torah proper and their reading (passage each day, etc.) and the cycles of the planets - which also happens to create a series of curious coincidences between astrological occurrences (interpretations of astronomical motion) and the passages of the Torah. May not mean much from a christian standpoint, but it should - it's the cultural root of the religion, and can't be ignored. Not that it matters, most people can't read the old testament anyway, including jewish people.

Astrology plays a role in all of the judaic religions. Now, personally, I take more stock in the Torah than the New testament, largely because of the historical record of cultural purity regarding that text. The new testament has been edited, mixed, matched, and rewritten to suit the purposes of the reigning clergy of the day for nearly two thousand years. According to the old testament and the religious traditions passed down through Judaism, it's rather technically and precisely not a sin.

What is a sin, is to let the stars rule your life rather than God. This means, the motions of the stars should not give you justification or compulsion to violate God's law - in other words their are cycles encouraging transgression which must be overcome by the devout followers of said religions.

Of course, I'm just an educated Heathen, so in my opinion it's all just sophistry anyway; I don't get my God from any book. The ability to read hebrew helps clarify a few points though; I find the english translations to be just as biased in the old testament as in the new.

peace

This thread has seen it's share of opinions and interesting points to contemplate. I thank you all for contribution for it has allowed me to learn and interpret much and thank you Vagrant Dreamer especially for your continued participation throughout the discussion.
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