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 Chaos, the Ability to Perceive
bym
post Jul 13 2005, 04:30 PM
Post #31


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I promised this thread on another discussion thread and now...I have to deliver.
Just what makes Chaos Magic(k) chaotic?
We are beings with the ability to perceive many things but is Chaos one of them?
How, as organized life forms, are we able to conceptualize Chaos and then produce a 'system' of magic that utilizes this principle? (the idea of a 'system' implies order by its very nature)
A close friend and I are in the middle of this debate...he's a Molecular Biophysisist and I'm a dropout. He claims evidence of chaos exists in many ways and I've asked him to illustrate this. So far I've not heard of anything objective. True, we can say 'chaos' and write 'chaos' but we are doing so with the tools of order.
Let me bow out for awhile and let the over heated air cool and invite ideas from the Forum. Remember, this is a debate/discussion and we should agree to disagree rather than slinging shots! OK? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)


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Rest in Peace Bym.
http://www.sacred-magick.org/index.php?showtopic=7662

~The Sacred Magick Management

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Praxis
post Nov 10 2011, 08:32 AM
Post #32


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Six years ago, I explained what Chaos is to me as you folks can read earlier in this thread.
I have engaged many people in conversation, about the topic - and engaged a lot of contemplation in relation to my ongoing experience - since then.

I have repeatedly noticed that many (not all) people want to make Chaos primary in their perspectives. Historic, as well as popular culture, supports that arrangement - in addition to further explaining Chaos as a kind of randomness, mayhem, havoc, pandemonium, and even evil. That explanation is often further compounded by analogizing Chaos with darkness. When put in epic analogical opposition to light, which then infuses the roguish flavor of a daring and dashing rebelliousness against whatever paradigm(s) is/are associated with light - then all together the result instigates a titillating fascination for those who yearn to proclaim their individuality by bucking what they perceive to be the prevailing Status Quo. To me, it's very much akin to folks who gravitate toward making characters who champion, comprise, and are regarded as the "dark side" of a video game - where such are seen as somehow being more "bad ass" and "cooler".

I have come to know that Chaos is neither primary nor a word for referencing randomness, mayhem, havoc, etc... That knowing remains based upon my experience. When I attune my awareness to the primordial background, Chaos does not antecede everything else.

Although I was correct about discerning that Chaos arises from not comprehending Order, it has taken me a while to discern that I was mistaken about Order being the Chaos that I comprehend. As accurate as the role of comprehension - and as tight and mutually supportive as my earlier explanation for Chaos and Order, relative to each other - was, the mutual spin of that interconnected explanation failed by excluding experiential Prime.

Crafting a linguistic update here requires me to take the terms, shake them free of my previous explanations, and re-arrange the words more accurately to reflect my current awareness. I'm also going to introduce a few more terms into the explanation here, and so refresh explanations for them as well while I'm at it. So if you are the kind of person who seriously suffers from shocked sensibilities by such wordsmithing, you might want to stop reading right now.



Ordos (Order) is Prime and appears to me according to two ways, directly dependent upon my comprehension.

When I comprehend Ordos - it appears to me as Cosmos.
Cosmos is the Order that I comprehend.

When I do not comprehend Order - it appears to me as Chaos.
Chaos is the Order that I do not comprehend.

Transforming awareness of Ordos as Chaos to awareness of Ordos as Cosmos -
transforming from not comprehending experience to comprehending experience -
occurs according to the dynamic that I reference as Logos.



Another way of saying it:


The primordial dynamic of my ongoing experience is orderly.
As I use the dynamic process of logic (Logos) and craft comprehension of my experience, it appears to me as cosmic.
Not using logic to craft comprehension causes my experience to appears as chaotic.


Refraining from mistaking what I just explained above as any sort of justification for academic mentation requires noticing and remembering that I employ the term "logic" in a different way than how it has come to be habitually and popularly used - and that it also thus remains free from the classical limitations associated with the word.

This post has been edited by Praxis: Nov 10 2011, 08:45 AM

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Posts in this topic
bym   Chaos   Jul 13 2005, 04:30 PM
Alarum   Ok, I disagree with you completely, and I'll r...   Jul 13 2005, 06:36 PM
bym   :D you make some interesting points. By your obs...   Jul 13 2005, 06:50 PM
Alarum   You didnt run searches and learn about what I adv...   Jul 13 2005, 07:04 PM
bym   "Our work shows that the environment is not j...   Jul 14 2005, 06:20 AM
Alarum   There is order in our small little lives, bopping ...   Jul 14 2005, 10:13 AM
A_Smoking_Fox   the order you can perceive is only one of two thin...   Jul 14 2005, 03:03 PM
bym   Excellent points! I'm not sure that I can ...   Jul 14 2005, 04:32 PM
Alarum   I was saying that when something actually IS ord...   Jul 14 2005, 07:01 PM
bym   I, alas, disagree...but I'm sure that this wil...   Jul 14 2005, 07:24 PM
A_Smoking_Fox   very interesting... as for perfection. Nothing is...   Jul 15 2005, 01:24 AM
Rin Daemoko   Do to the very nature of chaos, I can't say ve...   Jul 15 2005, 04:32 PM
bym   :horse:   Jul 15 2005, 06:07 PM
green_pheonix   very insightfull.. damn.. couldnt have put it bet...   Jul 15 2005, 09:37 PM
Bb3   I think that one can definitely learn to perceive ...   Jul 22 2005, 09:14 PM
Praxis   To me: Chaos is the order that I do not comprehen...   Aug 11 2005, 10:37 AM
bym   Thank you. I find that you have said that rather w...   Aug 11 2005, 12:02 PM
gavriel   This is a question that has no answer. However con...   Sep 3 2005, 04:19 PM
al_zaine   One way of looking at it..... http://i26.photobu...   Jul 21 2007, 07:26 PM
Acid09   One way of looking at it..... http://i26.photobuck...   Jul 26 2007, 06:40 PM
Nill   Order and disorder are two sides to the same illus...   Jul 24 2007, 06:25 PM
al_zaine   I agree that order and disorder are both illusion....   Jul 24 2007, 07:54 PM
al_zaine   So would you say that formlessness is the true cha...   Aug 1 2007, 12:27 PM
Acid09   In my opinion pure chaos and pure order cannot exi...   Aug 2 2007, 05:55 PM
leolad   you are trying to describe something that is washe...   Aug 7 2007, 07:25 PM
Acid09   I'd argue the things you mentioned that are p...   Aug 8 2007, 04:28 PM
paxx   Going back to the original question… “what makes c...   Sep 20 2007, 12:10 PM
Makavelli   Chaos is every bit a part of the natural universe ...   Dec 15 2007, 10:03 PM
balancedmagi   hi... :blush: ... just a question. does it really ...   Jan 19 2008, 07:51 PM
queen of the south   Well,loads of good ideas.Did any of you ever hear ...   Feb 15 2008, 04:05 PM
eternal ginja   WOW! i forgot about writing that lol i was s...   Sep 18 2008, 04:52 AM
Traceless   I promised this thread on another discussion thre...   Jan 19 2010, 04:54 AM
bym   My point exactly! Symmetry is the organizati...   Jan 19 2010, 06:56 AM
Traceless   My point exactly! Symmetry is the organizatio...   Jan 19 2010, 11:25 AM
SororZSD23   . . . the beginning, middle, and end; the birth, g...   Jan 19 2010, 09:25 AM
bym   Ah...perhaps semantics is the problem...we agree o...   Jan 19 2010, 02:27 PM
Vagrant Dreamer   Mmm... I am of the mind, after some meditation on ...   Jan 21 2010, 10:42 PM
SororZSD23   I am much in accord with Vagrant. Chaos, technica...   Jan 22 2010, 10:05 AM
Dooley   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantica...   Jan 23 2010, 08:07 PM
Traceless   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantic...   Jan 25 2010, 10:47 PM
SororZSD23   Chaos and Order are abstracts steeped in semantic...   Jan 26 2010, 09:19 AM
Dooley   They aren't being discussed as "things...   Jan 26 2010, 02:40 PM
bym   Nicely put! I may not agree on everything in p...   Jan 26 2010, 10:09 AM
SororZSD23   EDIT: In conclusion, if you are discussing them a...   Jan 26 2010, 04:09 PM
esoterica   hi - back - well, if you lived inside one inch ins...   Jan 27 2010, 09:25 AM

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