The Red Dragon - Y Ddraig Goch Options

March 12, 2000: Working with Y Draig Goch, the Red Dragon of Wales

Me and four friends developed a ritual with the specific goal of physically manifesting Y Ddraig Goch. We formed a stone circle, had our offering (porterhouse steak), incense, ritual knives/swords/spears etc. We climbed a 400ft tall hill in the woods outside of Louisville (a show of dedication) and set about preparing the ritual. At this point, everything went wrong. The wood wouldn't light, so we resorted to a fire starter. We cast the circle only to realize that we left half of the ritual tools sitting outside of it, including the offering. I'll admit, it was my bright idea. I prompty said, "Well, there is five of us, and only eight stones. Everyone pick up two stones and we'll just MOVE the circle over to the tools."
After that, we begin the ritual in earnest. We first do a guided meditation, then start the evocation. In what I found out to later be a very badly translated Welsh verse, I call forth Y Ddraig Goch. At this point, we all drive a sword into the ground (that being all five of us driving one sword into the ground) and wait for a response. We got one. The sword was forced out, even with five people pushing downward. So, we do what one naturally does: igonored that entirely and went on with the ritual. We tossed the meat onto the fire, and each drove our individual weapons into the earth. They stayed in this time.
Each of us experienced a different manifestion, which was cool, but not what we really wanted. We wanted something that we could all here and see for verification reasons. We reluctantly closed the ritual, and started to pack up.
At this point, I feel it necessary to state that no one was on drugs.
We start packing up our gear, when we here a roar. All of us heard it. We stopped dead in our tracks. Imagine the mixture of a crotch rocket motorcycle and the T-Rex from Jurassic Park. That is what we all heard, and all around us. We ran back to the circle, too scared to talk. It continued for at least a minute. When it finally stopped, one of my friends ran off into the woods. Another sat down and trembled. I stood there stupidly. We were all under the impression that we offended Y Ddraig Goch and he was going to kill us. He was happy with us losing sleep and being much more serious about working with him.

The other thing that scared me also involves this entity, although this one happened three years later.
A close friend of mine was raped and became pregnant. She ask me to get rid of it magically. I invoked Y Ddraig Goch for the first and only time. (note: the Red Dragon is said to be able to cause women to miscarry, so this is why I chose to work with him for this)
I did it, and she miscarried the next day. What scared me the most was that I went through with it. I tried to rationalize it as it being her belief that it worked that caused the miscarriage, but that doesn't hold water. Even if what I experienced as Y Ddraig Goch used my body was completely in my head, I still provided the vehicle of belief for her.

Here's a thought....why were you driving a sword into the back of the entity summoned? Old Welsh myth states that the land and the dragon are one....you're lucky it didn't really wake up fully.....
Leave the miscarriaging/womens stuff to the mothers and/or midwives....you'll be happier in the long run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wizard.gif)

The sword was meant to do just that; get it's attention and create a connection. (and we weren't in Wales, which would have made the whole thing a lot easier) Of course, inexperience and overconfidence were also factors.
I totally agree with the miscarriage thing. I'll not be doing that again.

That is the only trouble with growing as a magickian, instead of believeing and experiementing, you get to KNOW when you did something correctly, which in this case is maybe something you would rather not have achieved.

I think your remorse for this is the saving grace and I am sat here hoping that you have put it down to experience of things not to rush into.

Remember that she did ask you to do this for her at the time and you were trying to do something you thought was best at the time (I am assuming this anyway).

The sword was meant to do just that; get it's attention and create a connection. (and we weren't in Wales, which would have made the whole thing a lot easier) Of course, inexperience and overconfidence were also factors.
I totally agree with the miscarriage thing. I'll not be doing that again.

Y Ddraig Goch is the World Dragon, not just the dragon of Wales. When you plunged the sword into the earth, you plunged it directly into the spine of the dragon.

Watch the movie Excalibur. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I may be a chaos mage, but using something from Excalibur (or worse, from the movie Dragonslayer as author Douglas Monroe has done) for a pre-existing entity that also happens to be the patron and protector of one of my ancestral homelands is a bit much.
Not to take anything away from Excalibur or anything, but I think I'll stick to folklore for inspiration.

*Smacks Lunukaos in the back of the head* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/5.gif)

You haven't even seen the movie. There's no literal dragon in Excalibur, it was Merlin's name for a deity of the land. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

The Dragon! It is everywhere, it is in everything. It's breath is the mist, it's roar is the thunder, and it's strike, <lighting strikes> Whoa, like lightning! Yes that is what it is.

Y Ddraig Goch is the Red Dragon of the World, I mentioned Excalibur because Merlin's Dragon reminded me of The World Dragon.

I wasn't making it up.

Geesh. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/q11.gif)

I have seen the movie. I've seen it so many times I remember the "Charm of Making" (anail nathrach uthbhas bethud, dochal dienvay", which roughly translates from the Irish as "serpent's breath, charm of death and life, thy omen of making")
and still wonder how they did the special effect with Lancelot pulling the sword out of his side.
Like I said, good movie; but I prefer folklore as my source.
edit: I have yet to find anything in folklore to suggest that the Welsh viewed Y Ddraig Goch as a World dragon. What I have found is that he is deeply connected with Wales.

This post has been edited by lunukaos: Apr 2 2005, 06:48 PM

That dosen't sound like any Dragon that I know of.do you have a picture?They're usually mellow and peaceful beings who would harm no one,especially an unborn child as life is sacred to them.

That dosen't sound like any Dragon that I know of.do you have a picture?They're usually mellow and peaceful beings who would harm no one,especially an unborn child as life is sacred to them.

From the Mabinogian
...The second plague was a shriek which came on every May-eve, over every hearth in the Island of Britain. And this went through people's hearts, and so scared them, that the men lost their hue and their strength, and the women their children, and the young men and the maidens lost their senses, and all the animals and trees and the earth and the waters, were left barren.


"...And the second plague," said he, "that is in thy dominion, behold it is a dragon. And another dragon of a foreign race is fighting with it, and striving to overcome it. And therefore does your dragon make a fearful outcry. And on this wise mayest thou come to know this. After thou hast returned home, cause the Island to be measured in its length and breadth, and in the place where thou dost find the exact central point, there cause a pit to be dug, and cause a cauldron full of the best mead that can be made to be put in the pit, with a covering of satin over the face of the cauldron. And then, in thine own person do thou remain there watching, and thou wilt see the dragon fighting in the form of terrific animals.

Lunukaos, Greetings!
I must confess...I've never known a dragon to be warm and cuddly. Even when I refer to 'my dragon' it is with no illusions! Awhile back there was a number of Newaged dogooders that published a few books on dragons, now it has become in vogue to have a cuddly astral dragon pet.... I'm sorry if this offends some people...no, really! Dragons didn't get their reputation by bad press. They can kill you and everything else, also. I'm glad for those people that have a warm, intimate relationship with a dragon but it is like having a warm intimate relationship with an intercontinental missile or an antipersonel device, worse, one that has freedom of speech, action and thought! Stick with the old tales and keep your perspective!
Now, I guess, I'll hear about it! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif)

Stick with the old tales and keep your perspective!

One's perspective is what one makes of it, isn't that the point of magick?.

I would be the first to admit that dragons are very capable of aggression, and can take offence at things, certainly mine can, what use would he be if he wasn't protective?.

People who have Dragons are usually very familiar with the so called dark side, and have usually learnt to respect it [the dark] as much as they do the light, [I do hate these general phrases as descriptions, but the whole matter becomes a chapter of it's own otherwise].

` The Mabinogian' a story for children can no more be quoted as evidence of Dragon nature than can `Grims' Fairy Tales', the `Bible', or `Hans Christian Anderson'. All are contaminated with `Christian ethics' and or the evil serpent mythology.

Dragon experience is personal, and appears in different ways for different ppls, just as most magickal entities do, usually reflecting that person's needs, natures or progress on their path.

I am not prone to seeing cuddly Dragons either, but have no difficulty in accepting
that there are such natures amongst the species.

The experiences given in answer to `Dragon' queries are therefore individual
and exclusive to the one quoting them, they are meant only as a general guide
to the querient. Sharing such knowledge is to be considered creditable behaviour,
decrying it is surely the height of arrogance.

I appreciate your viewpoint(s) and am terribly sorry if you find my own arrogant. You will always find opposing arguments for most everything and to view declaimations as arrogance certainly proves the point....if you also wish to discuss this further we can move this to the Fight Club.
I encourage alternate views and what I saw was someone getting dumped on because their own views were not aligned to others. Cuddly or not. If you wish to believe in pink angora dragons, be my guest. BUT, please provide me with classical reference for those so that I may maintain my perspective!

PS The Mabinogian is not a Christian based tale for children and there is ample evidence for stories of evil serpents! (I happen to like Dragons, snakes, etc.) The western world has many such stories yet almost none of the good serpents unlike the eastern world. Just where did you find your own reference for Dragons?

This post has been edited by bym: May 5 2005, 07:42 PM

I did not say that I found your post arrogant, I was speaking in generalities but if the shoe fits and so on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush2.gif) , nor did I see any one being dumped on in this thread, quite the contrary, I saw various view points all with relevence and all equally acceptable.

Your post implied a contempt for some view points, used a descriptive term of certain types of path workers as being below consideration, [I do not regard myself as one of them by the way] and went on to encourage the original querient to believe that his authenticity was the correct perspective, when it would have been perhaps more appropriate to say you held a view point more in keeping with theirs.




Re `Mabinogian' A collection of Welsh tales that appears to draws on Celtic ancestry.

Believed to have been written over a period of time between 1060 and 1250, and translated in the 19th century by Lady Charlotte Guest (1812-1895).

It was she who called them Mabinogian, the plural of Mabinogi meaning 'a story for the children'. The manuscripts she translated are held in Jesus College, Oxford, and are contained in the Red Book of Hergest dated back to 1325. By which time Christianity had certainly taken hold, and most if not all of the Celtic writings available to us are the result of stories re-written by the Monks of the early church.

From where do I obtain my references in regard to Dragons, well from a source
equally suspect no doubt in some eyes, my own contact with them, but then
ancient does not nessasarily imply authenticity.

I believe that Lady Guest was one person who translated the texts. Another being Gantz...etc. The Four Branches of the Mabinogion were not only portrayed as childrens tales but of an oral tradition that spoke of politics and mythologies in an emerging Britain (circa 100BCE onward). Pughe named them Mabinogion, I trust you to know the Welsh translation as I do not.

"The eleven tales collectively draft an imaginative cartography of the divisions and encounters between the mortal and the other worlds, history and myth, politics and poetry. The Mabinogion intimates, in other words, a narrative of "beating the bounds": wandering the far reaches of experience and thought, it revivifies their limits. At the same time, however, the Mabinogion is a crossing of the bounds, as each tale explores the limits of the limits, testing the precarious difference between one and its other .." -Katherine Millersdaughter, medievalist...

Upon rereading the posts I see that I was wrong to act so defensively in my statements. I apologize. As far as my statements to various movements in the new age circle I am not apologetic at all. Political correctness can be taken to a point of idiocy. Pardon, In My Humble Opinion. Bored, sotted Englishmen (and French, American, German, etc....)in the 19th century evidently had a bloody field day with any number of topics which are still being sorted out to this day. Then the Newage Movement came along and with it the wonderous internet and everything became saccharin drivel. Yes everybody is entitled to their opinion, right OR wrong.
You've made your point(s) but I still would like to hear of your tales of Dragons!? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/horse.gif)

This rit seems great to me the miscarrage thing is freaky but clear confusion she knew it was going to happen had faith and wasn't reisting it.So don't thing of using to hurt pregnent enemies.