Two Dead In Arizona During 'spiritual Cleanse' Options

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topst...at_lodge_deaths

Here's one link to the story, I'll get back and comment later when I've got more time.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/rss/topst...at_lodge_deaths

Here's one link to the story, I'll get back and comment later when I've got more time.

wow how tragic it must of been something with the sauna or something so they might of been breathing something from the blankets.

This is ALL OVER the local news atm.

I'm sure more will become clear as the investigation continues. Right now it's ongoing so the cops aren't saying much--they can't. However, Ray leaving the state looks very bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/Gigakach_02.gif)

Well, since I've last heard of it 3 are dead, so it's even worse. In a way, I have ambivilance, all I need to do is imagine it, every person, holding each breathless hope... However, there's almost no way to condone the idea of so many people in one steam cleanse, really... a steam cleanse should be a thing of intimate knowledge, where people are spread out over a great lay over, IMHO it's hard to imagine either one of those being true inspite of a 'leaders' hope. To me there's nothing more rephrensible or bile than a person getting by through means of the esoteric, most especiallywhen they are really not involved themsevles, hit at Charlie Spider here (yeah that's right). I mean it for five thouand to six thousand dollars I better be getting something indescribably awesome. I know of at least three or four people in this forum alone I would much rather place my spiritual health in than someone using unsafe, poor technique. Yet, in the pit of my stomach I can't help but think that this is the sign of the time, when people are still so far from where they need to be, even though the truth is so intimatley familiar.

This post has been edited by Bb3: Nov 14 2009, 05:05 AM

Oh, it gets better--Yavapai County police are now investigating said deaths as homicides. I doubt Dr. Ray will be charged with first degree murder, but criminal negligence and/or negligent homicide are not out of bounds here. Evidently the good spiritual leader was also checking out his clients' medical records before the sweat lodge retreat began--for what purpose is either not known or the cops aren't saying.

The people involved in this sweatlodge evidently paid a crapload of money for an 'out of body experience.' The cynic in me is chucking at the fact those unfortunate few who died apparently got their money's worth. There are many ways to separate fools from their money, he just happened to find an effective one--until now. Seeing as this is the same guy who wrote The Secret, it makes me wonder if he was trying to attract notoreity and got exactly what he wished for.

There's still a lot left to shake out, and there's a lot that police, investigators, and lawyers CAN'T say because this is still an ongoing investigation with the associated ongoing lawsuits.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Nov 14 2009, 08:05 AM

sweat lodge - a simulation of the underworld - hot as hell, dark as pitch - in a real sweat lodge they don't use blue tarps and even the poles that hold up the coverings are related to the paths of planets and stars - it is all about stressing the body/awareness until the awareness leaves the body, usually with the aid of something placed into the fire, deep within the ceremony - shamans are picked and trained from youth, but nowadays everybody thinks they are of shaman material, and then they have problems, sometimes severe, especially with entities, and convincing an entity that gets called to a feast that such a git isn't worth their feasting upon can be an even bigger problem than letting them just go for it, so i can see how this sort of thing can happen

redneck sweat lodge = dig a hole, build a fire, throw on a pound of pot, cover it with a thick blanket, crawl under the blanket - sort of a 'be the bong' kind of thing

sweat lodge - a simulation of the underworld - hot as hell, dark as pitch - in a real sweat lodge they don't use blue tarps and even the poles that hold up the coverings are related to the paths of planets and stars - it is all about stressing the body/awareness until the awareness leaves the body, usually with the aid of something placed into the fire, deep within the ceremony - shamans are picked and trained from youth, but nowadays everybody thinks they are of shaman material, and then they have problems, sometimes severe, especially with entities, and convincing an entity that gets called to a feast that such a git isn't worth their feasting upon can be an even bigger problem than letting them just go for it, so i can see how this sort of thing can happen

redneck sweat lodge = dig a hole, build a fire, throw on a pound of pot, cover it with a thick blanket, crawl under the blanket - sort of a 'be the bong' kind of thing

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/kicking.gif) Oh Esoterica, sometimes you really deliver. Redneck sweat lodge.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/victory.gif) Everything else is dead on as well, you hit the nail on the head without really saying it, just because you make a living doing something doesn't mean you are expert at your craft, and this craft is particularly dangerous.

I really have no notion who this guy is after all if he wrote "the secret" why the hell would anyone seriously into the occult care much about him? Darkmage I guess I agree with your dark cynicism in part, but mostly this is a thing that truly annoys me; there are some seriously talented occultists out there who could do way better and who make next to nothing, yet are busting it out there all the time helping folks out. I feel that stuff like this is... egomaniacal, firstly, way too many people for a frickin sweat lodge ceremony. Secondly, I feel he should have had more people there helping, not just saying yes, yes, yes. Like I said though I don't really care to know much about this situation but please holla if any news breaks.

Darkmage I guess I agree with your dark cynicism in part, but mostly this is a thing that truly annoys me; there are some seriously talented occultists out there who could do way better and who make next to nothing, yet are busting it out there all the time helping folks out. I feel that stuff like this is... egomaniacal,

Because the serious occultists who are out there busting ass, covering new ground every day, and helping out their friends and relatives are usually *not* the ones staring at their navels and writing books. They don't have the time. The ones that *do* write books, well, it's just like any other division of the entertainment industry, I'm afraid. Can you get a good agent who can get you a good contract with a juicy advance attached? Most people wouldn't have a clue--I know I wouldn't. In addition, to have a book sell enough copies for the publisher to justify the cost, you've got to break complex ideas and theories down into forms the layman/non occultist can understand. This is actually a hell of a lot more difficult than it seems. The problem is that then the books appeal to the lowest common denominators and people who have passed Magic 101 are screwed when they're looking for new material--Llewellyn publishing, anyone? :eyeroll:

Some of our local heroes like Joseph Peterson are actually more academics than authors, although he does walk the walk which is always a bonus. Those people I like to support as it's very much a 'publish or perish' world at the higher levels of academia--if they're not forced to publish scholarly papers 24/7 and instead can publish much-needed revisions of books most of us on the forum probably have and use regularly, more power to them. Donald Tyson is heading that way, esp. after his magnum opus of Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy ten years ago. The annotations are worth the cost of the book. Also, there's the Magic in History series which is pretty useful, but usually terribly dry stuff--once again written by academics.

On the other side of the spectrum we have assclowns like the author of The Secret and people like Ted Andrews. Andrews' techniques are good for the beginner, except he wraps the Qabalah into damn near EVERYTHING, even things that don't call for it, and for the love of God get him to an English 101 class and teach him to WRITE. His repetition of things that could be combined into one sentence as well as sentences that could be broken up, but instead go on forever, make my eyes bleed. :/ And don't get me started on Silver RavenFluff. :/

And yes, if anything else pops up I'll let you know, and post links to the stories if available. So far the airwaves have been quiet on this.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Nov 30 2009, 05:29 AM

>>His repetition of things that could be combined into one sentence as well as sentences that could be broken up, but instead go on forever, make my eyes bleed

and what better way to plunger it into your subconscious? - they're called hooks for a reason, and even i use them in my stories

lol i failed english 101 (literally, at university, back in the 70's) but that never stopped me from writing - following rules was never my best trait, and the english language is really nothing more than a collection of rules - words totally suck as a communication method - words are 2d and i like 3d


>>you've got to break complex ideas and theories down into forms the layman/non occultist can understand

indeed, and that precludes all but the most simple of concepts - i prefer nowadays to pass concepts intuitively, to dangle clues leading toward concepts for the people that can grasp the clues - sometimes it comes out like a multi-level parable where the lowest can grasp the simple form, but we have well seen where that gets us in the long run with the bible being dumbed down to the lowest level of meaning, and the rise of fundamentalism


>>'publish or perish'

or sit well behind the scenes, read nary a book, and walk your own path through the wilderness, discovering on your own - the only thing books are good for, imoho, is to point out traps along the path so they can be avoided by the prudent traveller, any other use constrains the practitioner to the pre-conceived ideas and biases in the book! - when does the aspiring chef stop rehearsing the same old ancient recipes and begin to experiment with materials, processes and substances for themselves? -- is this graduation, or is it matriculation?





This post has been edited by esoterica: Nov 30 2009, 10:16 AM

Here's another little gem on this story:

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northern...BE59baBHww.cspx

Special place in hell....

Now he's evidently being charged with manslaughter.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northern...LiEwHoyCuw.cspx

And his lawyer says he's innocent (surprise surprise):

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/james-rays-lawye...tory?id=9744331

Ray is looking more and more like a garden variety cult leader--not that I'm surprised by that, more dismayed that people keep falling for the same schtick over and over again.

Sounds like he is manic and possibly took advantage of people in a weakened mental state (when they were deprived of air and probably delusional) by demanding they stay put during the hazardous situation. He should be charged with negligence, people trusted him and he led 3 to an unnecessary death.

I guess it was too hard for him to open a basic health or medical book or even talking with a doctor before undertaking the cleansing.

I periodically hear about things like this. To me the lesson in it is very simple; Native American ceremony is for Native Americans, ONLY, and not us.

People might read me writing this, and then call me a hypocrite for claiming Kali as a patron, however the difference is, that I don't try and do anything dangerous as part of worshipping Ma, and every indication I've ever had, has suggested to me that she doesn't want me to, either. There have been times when I'll have a fairly strong spice (turmeric, paprika, garam masala) mix burning in my bedroom, and I will suddenly get a mental message in the middle of what I'm doing, to open my eyes and go out, even when I have the window open.

Pathwalking/being astrally active doesn't come overnight, either, or more specifically, conscious memory and control of it doesn't. I believe myself that most of us are astrally active when we're asleep, but we usually don't remember it.

At the risk of sounding immodest, I will claim that astral projection is something I do have a small amount of experience with. I was working with Bruce Moen's online community (http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/) for possibly two years, starting in late 2004. In that time, I had four experiences (translating to an average of one per six months) which I'm unequivocally willing to refer to as legitimate, and none since. You need to be in a very specific energetic state, and truthfully I still haven't figured out how to completely isolate and replicate it in myself at will, yet.

Anyone who tries to go the instant gratification route with this sort of thing, is asking for trouble. It is especially foolish to attempt to engage in any arduous form of asceticism without rigorous, long term training beforehand.

I periodically hear about things like this. To me the lesson in it is very simple; Native American ceremony is for Native Americans, ONLY, and not us.

What do you mean “not us”? Not occultist?

Anyone who tries to go the instant gratification route with this sort of thing, is asking for trouble. It is especially foolish to attempt to engage in any arduous form of asceticism without rigorous, long term training beforehand.

Agreed.

What do you mean “not us”? Not occultist?

"Us," meaning anyone who isn't ethnically Native American, basically; although yes, non-muggles as well. There are some systems, however, that can be borrowed from without it necessarily causing harm. Theirs, from everything I've ever seen however, isn't one of them, and I consider it off limits.

Sounds like he is manic and possibly took advantage of people in a weakened mental state (when they were deprived of air and probably delusional) by demanding they stay put during the hazardous situation. He should be charged with negligence, people trusted him and he led 3 to an unnecessary death.

There are many self-made guru types who are megalomaniacal, narcisisistic, grifting and ultimately a bit on the delusion and manic-depressive side. The media sensation The Secret is chock full of those types if you look into their backgrounds and the project no doubt was a scheme to promote them into notoriety and wealth. I mean $9000 for an event with this guy? It would crack me up except that I know of an ob/gyn in my neighborhood who caters to the wealthy in Fairfield, CT and wears an association with Sai Baba on his sleeve (another wildly revered cult icon some of whose doings are questionable) . He tried to recruit me to a medtiation group he was leading. Participation cost $900 for 10 weeks. Hah! I had been practicing meditation with high level swamis and gurus for free for decades. Ironically, I was leading a musical meditation group across the street from this doc that I usually did for free. A handful of people used to wander into my meditation group--don't know what the doc's high-end turn out was. For $900, yabyum should've come with the deal.

I've also made the acquaintance of yoga practitioners, New Agers, and Pagans who also have dreams of grandeur about becoming celebrity teachers. None have attained notoriety of a significant degree but most all have already fallen from grace.When they do, they pick up and start over with a new group. I'm guessing these celebrity types did the same thing over and again until they found the golden goose and hit the big time and then when they fall, they do not merely twist an ankle, they tumult from heaven to hell. (Then they move out of the country instead of out of state and start all over again!)

The leaders of these groups often do not have training or a reputable background as spiritual teachers--or any kind of teacher for that matter. They often are either clueless and simply think themselves too grand to care about how they affect other people and engage in ambiguous and hypocritical behavior (like Hindu and Buddhist gurus who insist that their followers be celibate or vegetarian while they are indulging in a secret harem and feasting on pork ribs or who live in mansions because their groupies have given them all their assests and live in tents and trailers.)

Their self-inflation and lack of authenticity drives them to the type of behavior and consequences related to Ray. But in a way, the people who are taken in by this type of person and agenda bear responsibility for their own actions and decisions. It becomes a brutal lesson about life and about what spirituality is and is not.

He seems to be guilty of manslaughter so I am not going to shed any tears over him. I feel sorry for the three who died and the others who had to go to the hospital. But my concern is that the government might try ban the use of sweat lodges or set up laws or regulations that are expensive, unwieldy or unduly interfering. I can see having some sort of regulations such as having a medical person at sweat lodge rituals or safety procedures. But often they pass laws that are badly designed or perhaps some Christian fundamentalist with an axe to grind tries to make sweat lodge rituals unworkable.

"Us," meaning anyone who isn't ethnically Native American, basically; although yes, non-muggles as well. There are some systems, however, that can be borrowed from without it necessarily causing harm. Theirs, from everything I've ever seen however, isn't one of them, and I consider it off limits.

It depends--most of their 'esoteric secrets' have parallels in most traditional/shamanic societies. Some are teaching them to interested non-NA's because their own cultures are dying out and they'd rather see the old ways preserved by a different ethnic group than go extinct. That, however, depends on the medicine man teaching it and the relationship(s) to their student(s). So...

IMO these people died not because he stole something from a system and it came back to bite him in the ass, but because he didn't follow proper safety and first aid procedures. This is no different than taking them on an extended camping trip, say, and then having people go into diabetic shock or something because they're not getting enough Calories for their activity level and they brought insufficient food supplies and/or don't know how to forage. The trip leader would still be held responsible, esp. if he pulled a Dr. Ray and sat back and did nothing while others suffered.

Or in lolcat:

(IMG:http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/8/21/campingurdoin128638231134631601.jpg)

And as for the 'Big Secret:'

(IMG:http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/5/23/128560368865870303.jpg)

Oh, the latest news on the story is that they're trying to get a gag order on this, so there may not be any more news stories about this for a while. I'm not sure if the gag order is going to go through, though, as it all depends on the judge's opinion.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Feb 12 2010, 06:48 AM