Perfect Astrology, Impossible but nice to know Options

I was having a pretty heavy Neptune transit through my AC a few years ago while researching tree of life stuff,

So i made this, it seems pretty hot to me but that's me..

Understanding perfection is understanding why we ain't so i figured it was a subject going to happen.

Would you put the planets someplace else? why?

I was pondering putting them on the cusps, clockwise, tho i'm not sure.
Swapping Mercury for Uranus?

Also, say you could set up a bunch of obelisks or something representing the planets an have ur wife give birth under any combination you desired, would you?
Personally i think i would, depends on the wife though..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif)



This post has been edited by Draw: Jul 7 2012, 02:40 PM

I was pondering putting them on the cusps, clockwise, tho i'm not sure.
Swapping Mercury for Uranus?

Also, say you could set up a bunch of obelisks or something representing the planets an have ur wife give birth under any combination you desired, would you?

It is the magician who rules the stars, not the stars who rule the magician. It is possible to establish an 'artificial' natal arrangement. Would be hard pressed to get it set up for birth, but I've often imagined this myself. I suggested it to my sister once before my first nephew was born. She suggested I make someone pregnant, and maybe try it with them. I think it is possible though, however I wonder at the possible consequence. There are some currents which establish trends among large groups of people, it would be interesting to see someone born with their natal, say, neptune, in a drastically different place than their peers.

However, the objective of your diagram is not entirely clear from your post. Are you looking to construct the 'perfect' natal chart?

peace

You could switch Uranus and Mercury for realism since Mercury can't be that far from the sun. I would need the degrees though since I'm not sure if those dashes are where the planets are?

Those little dash's are just bits i didn't edit out of the original chart, i didn't bother putting aspects in either but it's obvious where they would go.
Loads of them basically.

Yeah, it's what a perfect natal chart would look like IMO.

I know diversity is what makes us fill out into our different roles in the world, presumably this is why new-born's latch to such a cosmic randomizer.
But their must be a perfect chart, a baby born without needing to be tuned to forfill a niesh in a world of specialists.

Maybe what i'm trying to find is the chart of the baby not yet born, still in the womb un-aware of the enormity of the universe it exists within, perfect in it's complete virginity.

Those little dash's are just bits i didn't edit out of the original chart, i didn't bother putting aspects in either but it's obvious where they would go.
Loads of them basically.

Yeah, it's what a perfect natal chart would look like IMO.

I know diversity is what makes us fill out into our different roles in the world, presumably this is why new-born's latch to such a cosmic randomizer.
But their must be a perfect chart, a baby born without needing to be tuned to forfill a niesh in a world of specialists.

Maybe what i'm trying to find is the chart of the baby not yet born, still in the womb un-aware of the enormity of the universe it exists within, perfect in it's complete virginity.

Ah, i see. Ah, no, there is no perfect chart. There always will be challenges which will manifest as karma that needs to be overcome in life, and that process will give a person some weaknesses that must necessarily exist. If you give a person only, for instance, trines and conjunctions in their chart, then they will be lazy and everything in life will be given to them without any effort - the moment they encounter a problem they will give up or ignore it.

Give them only squares and oppositions, for instance, and they will struggle for everything and become hard headed and agressive, always butting heads with everyone because they can't believe that anyone will have anything to give them (emotionally, physically, spiritually) that they don't need to compete for.

There will be difficulties inherent in literally any chart you come up with. It's the nature of the thing; each of the planets manifest certain karmas, each of the signs have a place for that karma to materialize in life.

peace

Well if those planets are placed right over where they would be then I can make sense of it. That grand water trine might be difficult with the square aspects to Uranus and Saturn. I would imagine all the stress would be trying to come through Saturn, which is liable to be repressed. Mars in Pisces seems difficult, same with Neptune in ares, since both those can make clear directed action challenging.

It seems to me that this person would feel the stress of not being able to direct emotions/desires into reality (grand trine focused on saturn). I could see this person trying to be an artist but then being rejected by the public because they couldn't get funded for one reason or another (Neptune in 10th, square 7th sun). This is further indicated by the 2nd house pluto. Leo on the 2nd of a person who may a have difficult financial situation would probably be like the characters from "The Prince and the Pauper".

Actually taking 1st house venus square 10th neptune into consideration, along with the 7th house sun square 10th neptune, I could see this person as a model/actor. The Pluto/Leo in 2nd support this. This person could be very successful in that respect because basically the whole chart snaps into focus when considered from a "model/hollywood star" perspective. Of course being a performer for local theater plays or broadway musicals would fit this very well too.

The 8th house Saturn could indicated the contracts this person gets from performing in an unusual way (note Aquarius supporting the "eccentric" or "unusual" spotlight career"). This sort of contract would match that of someone who is in the spotlight because look at the Jupiter trine Saturn, thus making for the large financial contracts of someone in the "limelight".

Overall I thought this was an individual with a difficult chart until I recognized how well it would fit a career actor. Be careful of putting mercury too far from the sun, who knows what that could do to someone. Like Vagrant said there is no perfect chart. Also Vagrant mentioned how interesting it might be to put the outer planets in places different from the current placements... be careful with that too. I can imagine someone feeling like they were supposed to have been born in the future or past their whole life because of a placement like that. But it would be really interesting to actually see that.

Goodluck with this.

I totally forgot about the placement of the houses!
I figured that either the AC should be on the cusp between Virgo and Leo making Virgo house 1
or it should be right in the middle making a trine with the sun a sextile with the moon+venus, a square with uranus+mercury and opposition with mars, making for an unusually upfront individual.

So i put it just a bit off both for arguments sake.

I tidyed it up a bit, placed most the aspects and swapped mercury an uranus.

It's got the most diverse aspects i think you can get on a chart, which makes it a bit cluttered looking, but i'm quite happy it's as close to ideal as you can get.

Not sure it should be done though, the process would have to be perfect, which is a lot harder than a silly picture.

Planets move, an from the perspective of the child they would start in this place and then have to slowly move into their actual place, that could take days or months and would have to be speeded up way beyond their natural rate of movement.
An what about retrograde's? half of my planets are retrograde, i quite like it but i have no means to know what is ideal for this situation.

Would it even make a difference if the child wasn't exposed to the treatment for more than a month? I'm unsure.

It's a fools errand but it pass's time.

I totally forgot about the placement of the houses!
I figured that either the AC should be on the cusp between Virgo and Leo making Virgo house 1
or it should be right in the middle making a trine with the sun a sextile with the moon+venus, a square with uranus+mercury and opposition with mars, making for an unusually upfront individual.

So i put it just a bit off both for arguments sake.

I tidyed it up a bit, placed most the aspects and swapped mercury an uranus.

It's got the most diverse aspects i think you can get on a chart, which makes it a bit cluttered looking, but i'm quite happy it's as close to ideal as you can get.

Not sure it should be done though, the process would have to be perfect, which is a lot harder than a silly picture.

Planets move, an from the perspective of the child they would start in this place and then have to slowly move into their actual place, that could take days or months and would have to be speeded up way beyond their natural rate of movement.
An what about retrograde's? half of my planets are retrograde, i quite like it but i have no means to know what is ideal for this situation.

Would it even make a difference if the child wasn't exposed to the treatment for more than a month? I'm unsure.

It's a fools errand but it pass's time.

Here's a hypothetical method of creating a chart like this for the purpose of setting a child's natal chart intentionally.

First, you will need to establish a zone within which the child would need to be born. You could not, without a great deal of mastery, simply lay a 'chart' on a child at the moment of birth, so for those of us not so enlightened and empowered as to mete out cosmic karma at will, the method (hypothetical framework only) is as follows:

Establish some correspondences at 12 points around a circle, invoking each of the signs into their places. The Houses will be established by the Ascendant, which is itself established later.

You might feel the need to banish each planet from the zone first - personally I think that each invocation repurposes the forces present in the circle, so it is unnecessary. In any case, depending on your tradition a proper declaration of ownership over the area and possibly an offering to those forces you wish to work with may be in order.

Invoke the planets into their respective signs as called upon - check the medical astrology omens for this configuration, it is possible you might make the birth very difficult if successful in establishing these forces.

One way of creating a kind of overarching organization to the process is to compose the name of a Celestial Genius using one of the several popular methods. Which method you use is not terribly important, or the language that you use. The resulting name will be as close to unique as it is possible to get. The first letter of whatever set of letters you use will be set on the Ascendant, so this will establish the first house and the others as a result (you'd be looking at an equal house system, more than likely, although you could also invoke the ascendant and midheaven if you specifically wanted some signs to be intercepted by a house.

In any case, you can be degree specific with each planet using classical imagery for the decans and degrees, a bit like declaring where a person lives by determing which country, state, county, city, street, and finally address number. There are also the sabian symbols, which are descriptions assigned to each of the degrees, which could be used as a kind of short hand invocation to a degree.

Once the Zone is established, some connection should be made to the mother who is the literal gate of Life and Death at the moment of birth - you might annoint her abdomen with an oil also used to consecrate the circle, for instance. Linking spiritual forces to physical beings will require a physically represented link. Believing it will not do it, regardless of the development of your belief.

Likewise, once born, the child would need to be physically tied to those forces as well, perhaps through a version of baptism. I would also consecrate an object of some sort at the same time, as this can be a powerful tool for the child later on and I believe in planning ahead. What I wouldn't give to have been able to instruct my parents ahead of time to do so when I was born, but what can you do? (besides attempt to reach across the veil next time, I suppose; updates in around 50 or so years if I don't ascend in this life, perhaps!)

If it sounds a little cultish and freaky, well that's probably why you don't hear about it too often. I'm not sure anyone goes to these lengths, anywhere, at all. Probably that is the fault of small minds and, well, that movie Rosemary's baby... plus in general experimenting on babies is frowned upon. I would totally try it on my progeny, but am unlikely to make anyone pregnant in the near future. And a surrogate might very well report me if the hospital didn't - I mean, I suspect there is something not entirely appropriate to a delivery room about pulling out the chalk and the incense and proclaiming invocations all over the place while the doctors and nurses work, especially if I tell them they can't leave the circle until the baby is born. Maybe during a home water birth or something...

It must be nice to be an eccentric billionaire, somehow I feel money would render the logistics problems suddenly solvable.

Anyway, I think i agree with Tomber's assessment of the outers - having your outer planets in different signs than everyone in your generation could make for some really awkward personality traits, and some heavy displacement. However, that might make for a truly visionary individual as well, the kind of person literally 'ahead of their time'. Pluto especially can be considered the keeper of the age, whereas Saturn marks the time of the individual.

This has made me curious about the idea of calculating charts intentionally based on outcomes rather than observation of available configurations. If you wouldn't mind, tomber, I would like to construct a chart myself and see what you think of it. Specifically, what do you think might be the result of having one's mercury and/or venus too far from the sun? Farther than it would naturally go, I mean. A very impersonal communicator, or someone unable to appreciate their own beauty? Could a person even communicate at all with a Sun/Mercury opposition? Or, never say what they mean? Obviously we're talking templates with trends, not absolutes, but still.

peace

Oh! Here's another crazy idea for the eccentric occult oriented billionaire who can pay off any questions....

Consider a temple setting, with a kind of chart wheel inlaid into a marble (cause you're an eccentric billionaire and concrete is for middle class), with icons of the planets crafted from precious metals and stones set into one of 360 holes around that circle. Think icons with pegs. A permanent circle can be established through regular consecration, and of course the building and the land would have to be owned by the practitioner.

It would need to be a very wide circle, perhaps upwards of 20 feet, large enough to safely birth a baby with room to spare, all "necessary" equipment included (depending on what the mother thinks constitutes a safe environment). The pegs are set ahead of time, along with outer pegs for the MC and AC, such that the conditions can be easily 'shorthanded' using the consecrated elements to establish the zone properly. Then general invocations can be done to 'set' those forces according to their arrangement, after all parties are present.

The AC icon could actually be a baptismal font, thus tying the AC to the child upon birth, which is, in most astrological schools, the 'hinge' point of a chart. If the AC lines up, so does everything else. The MC likewise might hold some variable icon representing the intended Destiny of the child.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/insane.gif) Like I said, crazy idea for an eccentric occult oriented billionaire - emphasis on the crazy part, but you know, some neat stuff comes out of crazy. And with a set up like that, who knows, you could be special-birthing all the rich folk's heirs.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/evilB.gif)

peace

This has made me curious about the idea of calculating charts intentionally based on outcomes rather than observation of available configurations. If you wouldn't mind, tomber, I would like to construct a chart myself and see what you think of it. Specifically, what do you think might be the result of having one's mercury and/or venus too far from the sun? Farther than it would naturally go, I mean. A very impersonal communicator, or someone unable to appreciate their own beauty? Could a person even communicate at all with a Sun/Mercury opposition? Or, never say what they mean? Obviously we're talking templates with trends, not absolutes, but still.

Sure, I'll look at any charts you have.

I had been thinking about the whole mercury farther away thing because it was interesting but I wasn't sure. Same with Venus. I would guess that it would basically function like other placements or aspects, and someone would need a whole chart to take this into consideration. When I approach a human chart, whether it's a natal chart, transits, or progressions I like to think that there are basic mental, physical, and spiritual "pieces" that are essential, and which must expressed by the individual at some level or another. That means, even if Mars suddenly blew up, people would still function with Mar's qualities, but it seems likely that other planets would take up that responsibility to compensate for the loss.

If Mercury was opposite the Sun I would look at Uranus to see if maybe the "group think" had replaced the "I think". But of course an opposition indicates the ability to resolve through balance, so that person might just have major disassociation issues... with the thinking process. I imagine the outer planets would be outlets for this sort of inhibition because often society will be the "voice" for people who can't speak, such as is the case for some disabled people.You are probably really close to reality when you say that these people might never say what they mean. These aspects might be strange or odd, but I doubt they would cause major issues by themselves.

Vagrant, I think your idea of calculating charts for a specific outcome is really amazing if you can make it work. Constructing a chart would be easy for specific goals. Obviously the problem with making an "artificial" chart for someone to be perfect, is that there is no perfect. Someone could make a warrior, a thinker, a worker, a homebody, an artist, a businessman... almost anything, but this world isn't perfect and there is no perfect chart. Period. In my experience it is more about what an individual will choose to do under certain stresses (aspects), than what they are born with. On the other hand, it's all about "the cards you're dealt".

I know Bardon claims that the magician controls the stars, not the other way around, but I unfortunately totally unsuccessful with this personally, and have never seen anyone ever who actually achieved that amount of power or influence. I suppose I'm just not at that level... some of the people on these forums might be though. For anyone who can claim that they are no longer under the direct influence of the stars, due to their wills, I would love to talk about how you did that. It would be an incredible achievement.

By the way, how is the astrology consultations through your website going Vagrant? Any interesting charts?

Vagrant, I think your idea of calculating charts for a specific outcome is really amazing if you can make it work. Constructing a chart would be easy for specific goals. Obviously the problem with making an "artificial" chart for someone to be perfect, is that there is no perfect. Someone could make a warrior, a thinker, a worker, a homebody, an artist, a businessman... almost anything, but this world isn't perfect and there is no perfect chart. Period. In my experience it is more about what an individual will choose to do under certain stresses (aspects), than what they are born with. On the other hand, it's all about "the cards you're dealt".

Oh I agree - and I think one of the telling elements of astrology is that no matter where you put them, the planets will always produce, or represent, strengths and weaknesses, challenges and tools. As a potential cosmological template it informs us, it would seem, that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

I know Bardon claims that the magician controls the stars, not the other way around, but I unfortunately totally unsuccessful with this personally, and have never seen anyone ever who actually achieved that amount of power or influence. I suppose I'm just not at that level... some of the people on these forums might be though. For anyone who can claim that they are no longer under the direct influence of the stars, due to their wills, I would love to talk about how you did that. It would be an incredible achievement.

There are hard aspects in my chart that I have specifically sought to overcome. For some this has worked out - for others, it is still an ongoing process. But I do believe that the reference made was intended to convey that a magician should not have to wait until this and such auspicious moment - that through his will, the celestial forces should be at hand as the magician requires them. It is however something worth noting that if one is to view their chart as a specific challenge - here are these problems, here are some tools, be the best human being that you can be under the circumstances - this not only sounds a great deal like Karma, but also gives astrology a very utilitarian element towards self-growth that is really not focused on much, at least in the books that I have read. Granted, they are mostly information on how to read charts, not what to do with them; presumably such books do exist. And as with Tarot, I've had basically no interaction with astrologers in terms of reading my chart with an aim to get something utilitarian out of it.

By the way, how is the astrology consultations through your website going Vagrant? Any interesting charts?

I only took two astrology consultations which turned out to be very brief interpretation with long talks about the philosophy of astrology, there were a LOT of questions about astrology itself rather than their chart specifically. It started both times with something approximating "I just don't get how it could say that, it's crazy! How does that work?" Both clients were pleased with the outcome though, and came back for tarot readings. So, good, I suppose, 2 for 2, if not entirely constructive. Not particularly interesting in the kind of outlier way you probably mean, however. Over the last couple of months I have had mostly custom project requests, enough that I haven't had time to produce anything else, and so haven't spent much time maintaining the site, and haven't been taking consultations online. I have been reading more at the office, which I was initially worried about but it doesn't seem to have hurt business and in fact I've had several clients ask for readings that I would never have expected! At some point I'll master organization and utilize my time more judiciously, but for now the extra work is fun and profitable, if a bit... unique, I suppose, at times. Nature of the beast, I think.

peace

Aaaah, to be a billionare.. I'd change the face of the world forever.. Mwahahaha!
I've genuinely had the ambition to build a building for this kind of thing for about 6 years, like a health-spa designed for pregnant women with a blessed birthing pool surrounded by vegetation indoors, like a little piece of paradise..
Also a banging club, a chapel for weddings and a cheep hotel on top. I'll do it one day...

The 'Perfect Chart' as i've put it is could be quite useful for creating magical items etc.. as you might have guessed.
I don't think the same process can easily be transmitted for birthing though IMO, it's just that i think the reason astrology has such an effect on newborns isn't so much the initial moment of birth but the continuation of that moment..
Take Pluto for example, it has quite a fixed strong nature about it because it takes so long to move.. it kind of has more time to 'imprint' in it's location than say.. Mercury.
If Mercury was to stay fixed for a longer period of time it's effect would become much harder IMO.
Also, what happens when the baby leaves the conditioned area of it's birth? the snap to a different set of positions could cause disorientation and untold difficulties

This is why i think that the 'birthing area' should be a place that mother an baby can spend a great deal of time in after the birth (approx 3 months) and that the planets during this time-frame should move at a fairly natural rate.
Their should also be 'after effects' of the magick that would re-orientate the planets to their natural positions after the baby has left the area.
This would mean either the total effect has a start time an a finish time or the planets within the area should continually waver in an orb with an approximate size to their natural rate of movement.

All a bit difficult without the cash,

I personally think it's a crime letting so many people get born in hospitals, terrible places, filled with death an dickheads.
I was lucky enough to get born in a lovely haunted house with out any drugs, an i didn't get christened (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

What do you mean by a Celestial Genius? like a supercharges divine egregor made for the property?
Also you said that you could consecrate tools for when their older, what about germinating loads of different seeds of tree's! by the time their 18 or so they could have the bestest knobbly staff you could get an some good friends besides.
Loads of great ideas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) totally morally dubious subject! lol

This post has been edited by Draw: Jul 11 2012, 11:36 AM

Mmm, the imprinting of the Natal Chart upon a newborn is said to occur at the moment they take their first breath - from the vedic astrological point of view this is because the stars exert an influence on the prana in the air, which the baby takes into itself at that moment and because it is the first 'impression' of the prana, this becomes the babies natal condition. Presumably under the same working theory, if the prana or vital energy in a place is so altered ahead of time in preparation, there you go. A more practical concern within the paradigm might be whether the child's connection to the stars would be impaired do to the asynchronous natal vs. transiting energies. Once out of the, we'll say, 'field' the child effectively is beset by the various transits present. This could be calculated as well, however - you could perhaps take advantage of calculated aspects by 'setting them off' with other planets in the midst of their natural transit. You might birth a prodigy this way, who knows?

The celestial genius can be thought of as the 'name' of a person's natal chart. The degrees of the wheel are assigned letters in sequence, and sometimes in a cipher algorithm to ensure a greater degree of uniqueness, which are then written down planet by planet in order of importance in the chart, usually determined by dignity and debility. The name is arbitrary in and of itself - but it is a short, vocal/visual expression of a very specific signature. I have an algorithm for creating sigils out of these names that have a look similar to the seals of the archangels (a kind of running line with variations along the length in most cases), and have used this method to materially imprint the 'name' of the auspicious moment or the desired auspices on an object. Hypothetically you could evoke this name, but this is not the way that I use them.

All the talk about birthing babies under artificial natal conditions is pretty much just wild speculatory hypothesizing - I can't see myself ever going to the trouble to arrange such a thing, and there really is no telling what kind of madness one might inflict upon a poor kid thereby.

peace

All very interesting stuff, thanks.

I'm unfamiliar with the vedic side of things but that dose look like a sound theory, first breath an such.. maybe i'm just being over zelious, i'm sitting on a lovely astrological drape i could use for this..

The name thingy sounds great, like a atmospheric configuration bottled in a word... useful (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think i'd like to try it out on a cat or a dog first, see if that works.
Thinking about that.. i did bless the area under my bed for my cat to give birth.. their healthy an strong but then i didn't consider this kind of thing.

Well i guess this is the end of this thread roundabouts, it's been a good one but you've raised some good points of interest in your new one that should be rather good, i shall not butt in first though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's been a while, hope no one minds me bumping the thread..

It occurred to me that the primary reason for trying to find 'perfection' in this way was so as to make the perfect off-set to a normal persona's chart.
At first i was thinking 'rebirths' but i've never really herd of that working very well an i like my personality.

Shamanic journeys though..

The way i see it, ya get really really relaxed an then choose to astral project as a highly versatile intelligent force with a dynamic will etc.. then interact/commune with your usual self under the conditions in which your usual self would like to be communed with.. then when your back in your body.. you've got some super astral guidey power thingy..

I've done it before, it works, it's a classic that'll never go out of fashion, last time though i didn't do it very well, i smegged it up so i'd be forced to do it properly someday..
Thing is.. to live in tandum with a super-natural entity like that can make life very easy, an if your as lazy as me that's where it would end.. maybe i was right, maybe i was a dick, i don't know.

Point i'm getting at is that this 'perfect chart' could be a composite chart, in which case one chart could be my own an one (or more!?) could be that of the shamanic astral body..
The perfect mix.. hmmm.. theoretically.

Last time i did it i felt (for the short time i was out) like a Magnificent Weather God! or something.. never before or since have i felt such power, not worth the crap but certainly an interesting day.
So i've been thinking.. maybe i should be aiming to genuinly be the kind of compassionate..i've been their the whole time an all of time.. god.
Being a perfect partner is one thing but being a god involves being lots of things which are not perfect.. so i'm thinking of being all these things plus what it would be to make it perfect.
Like a personality that variate's according to other environmental factors, becoming a medium between me an anyone/thing i meet, like the single perfect multi-composite chart for any moment..

I know it all sounds like a massive ego trip, that's because it probably is.

I'm not sure where this journeys been pulling me but i think it's though a door like this.

Any advice/cautions questions welcome..