Vodun Practitioners Attacked At Ceremony For Haiti Earthquake Victims Options

Vodun practitioners attacked at ceremony for Haiti earthquake victims
By The Associated Press, February 23, 2010, 5:00PM
http://bit.ly/cR1ukz

(IMG:http://media.nola.com/religion_impact/photo/haiti-earthquake-voodoo-destructionjpg-f70ce7a4187dfa8b_large.jpg)

Angry crowds in a seaside slum in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, attacked a group of
Voodoo (Vodun) practitioners Tuesday, pelting them with rocks and halting a
ceremony meant to honor victims of last month's deadly earthquake.

Vodouists gathered in Cite Soleil where thousands of quake survivors live in
tents and depend on food aid. Praying and singing, the group was trying to
conjure spirits to guide lost souls when a crowd of evangelicals started
shouting. Some threw rocks while others urinated on Voodoo (Vodun)symbols. When
police left, the crowd destroyed the altars and Voodoo (Vodun) offerings of
food and rum.

(IMG:http://media.nola.com/religion_impact/photo/haiti-earthquake-voodoo-followersjpg-9a69345cd621ec19_medium.jpg)

(Photo: Voodoo (Vodun) followers watch as a crowd screams at them Tuesday as
they try to hold a ceremony in the Cite Soleil neighborhood of Port-au-Prince,
Haiti. http://bit.ly/cR1ukz)

"We were here preparing for prayer when these others came and took over," said
Sante Joseph, an evangelical worshipper in Cite Soleil, near the capital's
port, who joined the angry crowd in a concrete outdoor civic center.

Tensions have been running high since the Jan. 12 earthquake killed an
estimated 200,000 people and left more than 1 million homeless. More than 150
machete-wielding men attacked a World Food Program convoy Monday on the road
between Haiti's second-largest city of Cap-Haitien and Port-au-Prince. There
were no injuries but Chilean peacekeepers could not prevent the men from
stealing the food, U.N. spokesman Michel Bonnardeaux said.

Religious tension has also increased: Baptists, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses,
Scientologists, Mormons and other missionaries have flocked to Haiti in droves
since the earthquake to feed the homeless, treat the injured and jockey for
souls. Some Voodoo (Vodun)practitioners have said they've converted to
Christianity for fear they will lose out on aid or a belief that the earthquake
was a warning from God.

"Much of this has to do with the aid coming in," said Max Beauvoir, a Voodoo
(Vodun) priest and head of a Voodoo (Vodun) association. "Many missionaries
oppose Voodoo (Vodun). I hope this does not start a war of religions because
many of our practitioners are being harassed now unlike any other time that I
remember."

Voodoo, or Vodou as preferred by Haitians, evolved in the 17th century when the
French brought slaves to Haiti from West Africa. Slaves forced to practice
Catholicism remained loyal to their African spirits in secret by adopting
Catholic saints to coincide with African spirits, and today many Haitians
consider themselves followers of both religions. Voodoo's followers believe in
reincarnation, one God and a pantheon of spirits. Voodoo (Vodun)leaders say
that although they do not believe in evil spirits, some followers pray for the
spirits to do evil.

"There's absolutely a heightened spiritual conflict between Christianity and
Voodoo (Vodun) since the quake," said Pastor Frank Amedia of the Miami-based
Touch Heaven Ministries who has been distributing food in Haiti and
proselytizing.

"We would give food to the needy in the short term, but if they refused to give
up Voodoo (Vodun), I'm not sure we would continue to support them in the long
term because we wouldn't want to perpetuate that practice. We equate it with
witchcraft, which is contrary to the Gospel."

A magnitude-4.7 quake, meanwhile, rattled the capital at 1:26 a.m. Tuesday,
followed by a smaller aftershock whose magnitude was still unknown, said Eric
Calais, a geophysicist from Purdue University who is studying seismic activity
in Haiti.

A magnitude-4.7 aftershock struck Monday, followed by two other small tremors.
Both Tuesday's quake and Monday's aftershock struck near the epicenter of the
Jan. 12 quake. The U.S. Geological Survey in Colorado usually detects Haitian
quakes of magnitude 4 and above, but smaller tremors often are not detected due
to a lack of seismometers in Haiti.

Some walls that had toppled in last month's quake spilled onto the street
Tuesday and damaged telephone polls split in half. There were no reports of
injuries.

"It feels like the earth is shaking all the time since last month," said
Ermithe Josephe, 48, who is still sleeping outside in a tent next to her
crumpled house. "We can't sleep with all of these aftershocks and we're too
afraid to go to work sometimes."

Last month's earthquake occurred along the east-west Enriquillo Fault, where
two pieces of the Earth's crust slide by each other in opposite directions. The
USGS said Tuesday there is between a 5 percent and 15 percent probability that
another magnitude-7 quake would occur on the Enriquillo in the next 50 years.

Paisley Dodds of The Associated Press wrote this report.

**********************************************
Forwarded by Ezili's Haitian Lawyers Leadership Network
***********************************************

Angry crowds in a seaside slum in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, attacked a group of
Voodoo (Vodun) practitioners Tuesday, pelting them with rocks and halting a
ceremony meant to honor victims of last month's deadly earthquake.

Vodouists gathered in Cite Soleil where thousands of quake survivors live in
tents and depend on food aid. Praying and singing, the group was trying to
conjure spirits to guide lost souls when a crowd of evangelicals started
shouting. Some threw rocks while others urinated on Voodoo (Vodun)symbols. When
police left, the crowd destroyed the altars and Voodoo (Vodun) offerings of
food and rum.

This is wrong...it's so wrong.

I'm not going to claim that I know anything about Vodoun as a specific path, (I don't) but I do know that if they're trying to do retrieval work, they should not be stopped. Other people should actually try and take part in it.

I've checked back with Bruce Moen's site (http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/) since the Haiti quake. The people there do soul retrieval. Their model is very different from the usual shamanic one, but they do good work. Their work post-9/11 demonstrated that when a national disaster hits, there's usually as much chaos within the lower etheric as there is in physical space. Immediately after they die, people are lost, confused, and disoriented; many don't even know that they've passed, and they need help to move on.

If they don't get that help, they often end up trapped in terrible ways. There really are demons out there, yes, and in scenarios like the quake or 9/11, said demons can create scenarios where groups of souls become trapped, and are not allowed to move on. That is something that has to be prevented; for the sake of those souls themselves, and also because their misery stains the surrounding land. The environment in such places becomes unavailable for use until the area is cleared, and the souls are released. There are abandoned mental hospitals here in Australia where that has been allowed to happen, and they are terrible places. Once the demonic soul harvesters become entrenched in such places, they can become almost impossible to remove. The Voodoo priests would have much more intimate experience with, and understanding of, that than I do.

One of the things which people were saying on that forum at one point, is that it's actually recorded that in the first century or so after Jesus' death, the apostles actually did retrieval work themselves, and understood that it was necessary.

I'm really getting fed up with Christians recently, to be honest. I'm damn sick of them, and their dominant attitude. All many of the rest of us want to do, is what we've been designed for; to minister to people in the type of empowered, practical way that they really need, especially given the fact that they're generally not willing to step up to the plate and do anything really useful themselves.

Guess what, guys? Sometimes ministry means working on both sides of the veil, and interacting with other kinds of spirits besides what we find within immediate physical reality. We (and when I say we here, I mean anyone who has been called to work with spirit in order to try and help people, regardless of their path) ARE NOT Satanic or demonic for wanting to do that, either; we're wanting to do what God specifically designed us to do for people. It's also something which has been done for as long as humanity has been in existence.

I was considering going into Protestant seminary at one point before I left Christianity, but I knew that the condemnation would not end. I've been called a Satanic monster by them for years, when the only thing I've ever wanted to do is help myself and others in ways that they weren't interested in.

The rest of us want to do what is needed, in order for people to heal, and contrary to what you might believe, that doesn't always stop when people die. Sometimes we work with spirits that Christians consider "dark," or uncomfortable, yes; but my single biggest problem with the Christians I knew in the end, is that they were not willing to work with their shadows. I was having a lot of Cthonic dreams when I first walked away from Christianity; it was a frightening scenario at the time, but the end result was that I was able to leave the fear of Hell behind, for the most part. As the saying goes, no pain, no gain. If you're not willing to risk looking at, and going into the darkness occasionally, you're not going to attain progressively higher and higher levels of light. I understand now, that that is why things like the Goetia are actually necessary.

I pray that as a path, Vodun is somehow able to survive this. From what little I have seen of it, that faith is extremely hands on and practically oriented. That makes it very valuable, and it must not be lost.

That's just disgraceful.

God--and I mean the Creator of All--is so far above us or our cares it's ridiculous. What intercessors we choose are up to us, and just because one doesn't agree with another doesn't give the first the right to kick the second's ass. :/ This is why I don't like Christians as a general rule, although I've no problem with the core of the religion. I don't understand what the death of a political prisoner 2000 years ago has to do with ME, NOW, although what he and others like Buddha taught has a great deal to do with ME, NOW, as all religions have the same basic belief system at their cores. Basically, be nice, play well with others--and if you can't, go be an ascetic out in the wilderness somewhere as that's perfectly OK too, share what you've got, and realise there's a hell of a lot more to this world than right here, right now. :/ These Christian missionaries have missed the point, IMO.

Besides, Voodoo is native to Haiti. Whatever its flaws, and I'm sure it has quite a few as all human constructs do, people are familiar with it there. They know it in ways most Americans never will, and that familiarity counts for quite a lot. Evangelical Christianity is a foreign system to them, at least based on what I've read, though others may disagree. Those missionaries are so far out of line it's ridiculous.

Maybe the secondary earthquakes are a sign for the evangelicals to actually *do something helpful* and not stand around starting fights? Hmm.

Just sayin.'

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Edit: Petrus, your post went in at the same time as mine. I just read it. Great points! Esp:

I'm really getting fed up with Christians recently, to be honest. I'm damn sick of them, and their dominant attitude. All many of the rest of us want to do, is what we've been designed for; to minister to people in the type of empowered, practical way that they really need, especially given the fact that they're generally not willing to step up to the plate and do anything really useful themselves.

Guess what, guys? Sometimes ministry means working on both sides of the veil, and interacting with other kinds of spirits besides what we find within immediate physical reality. We (and when I say we here, I mean anyone who has been called to work with spirit in order to try and help people, regardless of their path) ARE NOT Satanic or demonic for wanting to do that, either; we're wanting to do what God specifically designed us to do for people. It's also something which has been done for as long as humanity has been in existence.

And:

The rest of us want to do what is needed, in order for people to heal, and contrary to what you might believe, that doesn't always stop when people die. Sometimes we work with spirits that Christians consider "dark," or uncomfortable, yes; but my single biggest problem with the Christians I knew in the end, is that they were not willing to work with their shadows. I was having a lot of Cthonic dreams when I first walked away from Christianity; it was a frightening scenario at the time, but the end result was that I was able to leave the fear of Hell behind, for the most part. As the saying goes, no pain, no gain. If you're not willing to risk looking at, and going into the darkness occasionally, you're not going to attain progressively higher and higher levels of light. I understand now, that that is why things like the Goetia are actually necessary.

I pray that as a path, Vodun is somehow able to survive this. From what little I have seen of it, that faith is extremely hands on and practically oriented. That makes it very valuable, and it must not be lost.

AMEN.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Feb 25 2010, 03:21 PM

Edit: Petrus, your post went in at the same time as mine. I just read it. Great points! Esp:

Thanks, Darkmage.

NOT in order to do anything to actually harm them, but purely as a prank, part me of just had the idea, that I wish we could evoke Forcalor, ask him to manifest somewhat larger than usual, and then fly down and land in the middle of a crowd of the missionaries on Haiti.

"I heard you've been picking on my Voudon friends. Would you care to explain to me what the problem is?" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/diablo.gif)

OMG, that would be beyond hilarious. The Big Brother from Hell--*almost* literally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clapping.gif)

Oh yeah, and throw a clause in there that he won't or can't be dismissed until the missionaries give him a logical explanation for their actions to *his* liking, not theirs. I have the feeling he'd be there for quite some time.

OMG, that would be beyond hilarious. The Big Brother from Hell--*almost* literally. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clapping.gif)

Oh yeah, and throw a clause in there that he won't or can't be dismissed until the missionaries give him a logical explanation for their actions to *his* liking, not theirs. I have the feeling he'd be there for quite some time.

It's a shame I don't have the setup here for a full dress evocation. I could go the open handed route again, but that didn't work out so well, last time I tried it, and Forcalor really isn't a safe entity to have unrestrained. Forcalor did seem surprisingly principled though, so I somehow suspect he'd actually be up for doing it if we asked him to. Maybe we could ask Imperial to make the request? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Part that got to me was the bit about not helping people who aren't christian using their poverty to force people to convert. Haiti has been plagued by America and Europes foriegn policy toward it since its inception, is sad, the French plunged them into debt and the Americans invaded took their gold reserves and have them trumped up on ''aid'' something they use to destablize poor countries, flood their economy with food stuffs and imported goods from subsidised farmers, post up crooked leaders and death squads make private what industries belonged to the people retribution for the Boukman rebellion ceremony and Toussaints cry for freedom.

Christians are blaming the Vodun practicioners for the quake .lol. Not a fan of Christians myself I have to admit, do little and talk alot that bunch... at least Muslems and Jewish people practice something. I refrained from posting a similar but worse story about the situation in Kenya.... theres a video going around of a Christian mob burning ''witches'' and ''wizards'' alive, dark ages kind of stuff I couldnt watch.

Terrible.

Dayum.

Poverty, unemployment, and fear for survival drive people to do crazy things. It's always a hell of a lot easier to blame your problems on something or someone else, like witches and wizards, than it is to change your own situation--in Kenya's case, fighting for political change would probably be in order. I say give those people jobs, food, and something to do other than burn their neighbours alive and everyone would be a lot better off.

Just sayin.' :/

.lol. Say away, everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Main problem for places like Africa is that people are being forced to live in a way that's counter to their own way of life, they've never been backward past acess to military capability due to the Afro Arab wars in the north. The various genocides the people have faced saw mass displacement of what were formerly nations, many hid to escape enslavement and over time became somewhat backward, others saw their culture oppressed by islam, christianity and later colonialism so much of it needs bringing forward problem is that they're now forced to live by foriegn standards like in kenya which is british "ruled" covert imperialism... the laws and so on aren't Kenyan, the industries are privatized and owned by others who then work to impact on politics... none of it at top is African, think traditional clothing is still banned in kenyan houses of parliment.

Basically the cry for freedom is about being able to live and self govern as the culture of the people dictates to take over from the western or even Arabic standard that they now suffer under.... capitalism isn't universal, its limited tends to a few over a majority population... the modern concept of diplomacy isn't universal... its divisive, attempting to apply it to a country or countries where you have several diffrent nations vying for power only causes conflict, as is seen in the middle east and other places, media trumps up crime and so on in our countries as though its all petty when the truth is its political... within that you then have criminal elements. So now as it used to be in the Caribbean people are commiting cultural genocide, not educated enough to know about their past (still teaching colonialist education, seriously its terrible .lol.) they take to foriegn religions and cultures thinking that the traditionalists are holding them back, embarrasing them or causing their grief either through natural disaster or political in being rebellious and conflict causing so they attack them and burn them alive, flee the country and pretend to be european or arab, perhaps return to further put one over on the people, be a missionary or something .lol.

Get leaders like Sir Robert Mugabe (the guy is knighted) doing their thing ousting nazis and returning the land to the people to farm only to be sanctioned and threatened... Mugabe was smart though, the British tried to divide the nation starving the people blaming him and his peoples by proxy trying for a civil war but in reforming the southern parts of africa after aparthied they knew what the game was and educated EVERYONE, trust me Zimbabweans head for head are educated to a higher standard than people in most other countries, problem is that you can't do much with it if someone has their hand in your pocket coverting your industries etc but its a political hive in reality.

Sadly there's no jumping on a large red dragon in mid flight here, no moral crisis deciding to not keep the nice pink diamond but to do good instead, no saving an ignorant pregnant woman and child and thus the world or protecting the incompetent in a law case achiving victory with a well polished speech, no cerating of a supermetallic suit to fight it off either, no wise words from Mandela/yoda or Oxfam or U.N-humanitarian spokes person if you get the play on words there. Situation isn't so easily remedied, have to nationalize as Castro and Chavez have done and follow the Chinese in their developmental "stratergy" perhaps as per, "Emperor and assasin"... brilliant film that, am a fan of far eastern movies no one puts such depth and meaning into film in the way they do, philosophical plus some, got me a cool collection.

Honesty continuously defies ignorance.

Peace
.M.

Christians attacking other religions... I wish I could say I'm surprised. It's the same where ever you go. They do things so ignorantly; they act contrary to their own doctrine. I wish people would not act so ignorantly in the name of any absolute. It's disgraceful to religion itself. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

so much for my dreams of finding a sexy voodoun priestess.

Poverty, unemployment, and fear for survival drive people to do crazy things.

Your average extremist Christian has four major problems, as far as them being genocidal is concerned. I was an active attendant of a number of Charismatic, Protestant churches throughout my teens, and I directly experienced these elements.

a) They're taught to believe that if in doubt, literally anything at all that they don't understand is Satanic, by default, and therefore must be completely destroyed. There are numerous stories going around (which can never be substantiated, of course, but which are intended to be accepted as given) about Christians who've supposedly encountered people of literally every religion in existence on the planet other than their own, who have at times invariably begun exhibiting symptoms consistent with those of Linda Blair from The Exorcist. Supposedly, when the host individual either said the sinners' prayer and accepted Jesus Christ, or Jesus was otherwise mentioned in the conversation, the demon(s) impersonating the other religion's deit(y,ies) became violent, and usually nearly killed the host.

In other words, Christians not only are taught to believe that every other religion in existence is Satanic, but because of these accounts, they believe that it is literally true.

b) They use Jewish Old Testament precedent (with the above as justification) for their acts of genocide.

c) The definition of salvation is rendered a constantly moving target by Church leadership, for the obvious purposes of control. The proverbial sinners' prayer, and initial acceptance of Christ, are only the first steps. Then there's baptism, and after that, there is continually having to monitor your behaviour and make sure that it conforms with the moment-by-moment decrees of your pastor. Do you speak in tongues, brother? If you don't, maybe you're not really saved. Do you experience being, "slain in the Spirit?" If you don't, maybe you're not really saved. Salvation isn't once for all, you know; it's a continual process.

The end result of the above is to keep a person constantly on edge, especially given what the stakes are depicted as being, for not being saved.

d) Because of all of the above, the level of constant, apocalyptic fear that many Christians are in, truly needs to be experienced to be believed. The fact that I couldn't live with it any more myself, was one of the main things that motivated me to leave Christianity. It generates secondary psychological problems of all kinds, as well.

In their minds, however, the world is quite literally on fire at this point. They believe that they are the only people on the planet who are not subject to random demonic possession at any time. If you're not saved, in their minds, you're subject to two things, broadly speaking.

d1) You're nothing other than a tool of demons. The unsaved, in their minds, have no free will or mental/spiritual individual sovereignty at all. In the Christian mind, Adam gave that up for all of us in Eden, so if you're not spoken for by the church, you're purely owned by Satan. You can be possessed at any time, or killed by the demons at any time. They basically believe in Satan and the demons being like the Agents from The Matrix; literally anyone who is unsaved can be rendered a demonic footsoldier, instantly. In addition to OT precedent, this is the main way in which they justify their treatment of non-Christians. If you are unsaved, you are forfeit.

"It's another training program, designed to teach you one thing: If you are not one of us, you are one of them."

"What are they?"

"Sentient programs. They can move in and out of any software still hard-wired to their system. That means that anyone we haven't unplugged is potentially an Agent. Inside the Matrix, they are everyone and they are no one. We have survived by hiding from them, by running from them, but they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them."

"Someone?"

"I won't lie to you, Neo. Every single man or woman who has stood their ground, everyone who has fought an agent has died. But where they have failed, you will succeed."

"Why?"

"I've seen an agent punch through a concrete wall. Men have emptied entire clips at them and hit nothing but air. Yet their strength and their speed are still based in a world that is built on rules. Because of that, they will never be as strong or as fast as you can be."

"What are you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?"

"No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

-- Morpheus and Neo, The Matrix.

d2) Anyone who is unsaved is headed, eternally, irrevocably, irretrievably, and non-negotiably, for Hell, and if you want to know what the Pentecostal/Charismatic version of Hell looks like, some of the episodes of Buffy or Angel might help. Hell is considered to be that bad, that it's literally almost beyond the capacity of the human mind to cognitively process the degree of agony that people who go there will be subjected to.

All of these heuristics, and the inevitable logical conflicts inherent between them, and other elements of mainstream Christianity, leave you with an individual who is permanently in a frenzy of absolute terror, is able to justify literally any act against anyone, using the above, and is also utterly beyond the reach of logic.

This post has been edited by Petrus: Feb 27 2010, 04:16 AM

@ Petrus: +1 for the Matrix quotes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was raised a Catholic, at least in my really early years, but after my parents got divorced when I was 4 it wasn't a big deal. *shrug* Most of the Christians I had run ins with and learned that these people have no idea wtf God is really about happened when I lived in the South as a kid in the early 80's. Let's just say most of the Southern stereotypes are true to a T, add to that I've still got my native NYC accent and things *did. not. go. well.* Moving out here to AZ saved my life, seriously. Most of the people involved in organised religion out here were either Catholic, which in most cases that meant they were Hispanics or of Eastern European descent, therefore persecuted minorities out here, or Mormons, which is probably one of the youngest denominations and also have a history of being a persecuted minority as well as having certain of its leaders assassinated. I've found both groups out here have very much a 'live and let live' way of going about things. A lot of Mormons I knew in high school didn't see their mission as spreading the word of God, most could have cared less. Instead they saw it as a combination of foreign exchange which would give them a leg up in the job market (true) and an excuse to get as far as they could away from their folks and party!! which was probably not so wise. :? They took a dim view of the missionaries that knocked on your door and wouldn't leave you alone. Despite the stereotypes, I've only had one group of Mormon missionaries that would NOT go away--they never came back when I threatened to press charges for stalking and trespassing.

/bio

Never having direct contact with extremist Christians, except as previously mentioned, I did not know a lot of the stuff you posted. They're not *ahem* 'that sort' of people that those of my background associate with. *shrug* I'm with DuQuette on this one--if you feel a need to believe what evangelicals do, it helps to have a corner of your mind reserved for religious mental illness and visit it as infrequently as possible. :/ If this is the God these people believe in then I want none of it--the God I've learned about and come in contact with has no need for such playground dictatorships. :/ Seriously, these people need to be taken to the psych ward and asked 'wtf can't you people think for yourselves?' Sad part is it's probably because they're that lazy. :/

@Mchawi: Good points. Here in the US we're not taught very much about our *own* history, let alone that of other continents. Africa is taught about because it's part of slavery--if it weren't, I'm afraid our school maps would still be marked with 'here be dragons' over the continent. :/ I know all about the dark legacy of European colonialism--the British kept the ethnic groups fighting each other so that way they couldn't unite and kick out the British. That legacy unfortunately remains. I don't expect them to *want* to be like the West, but that doesn't change the fact they often want what we have, and then the mindsets clash and everything hits the fan.

Here's the question I have though--even if these people reverted to their tribal ways of life, they've been 'corrupted' by the West and can never go back to a pre-colonial mindset. Given that a lot of these wars and conflicts are over resources, and the rate of environmental degradation there doesn't help, what's to stop them killing each other if all the corporations and elites moved out? It sounds like, to me anyway, that it's more a case of the elites of those countries not having a vested interest in the welfare of their people--and the same thing is happening in the West, too, but it's just not as messy--yet.

Haiti is a failed state, basically. They have more NGO's there per capita than any other nation and they still can't get their shit sorted out. They need to ask themselves where they want to be as a country, and what do they want for their people? Not starving is a good first step, but what happens after that? What sort of industries do they want to attract? What kind of nation do they want to be? It's easy to blame others, and in Haiti's case a lot of it is frankly justified, but there comes a time when blame doesn't do anything to get problems on the ground fixed.

My $3.

This post has been edited by Darkmage: Feb 27 2010, 07:10 AM

Seriously, these people need to be taken to the psych ward and asked 'wtf can't you people think for yourselves?' Sad part is it's probably because they're that lazy. :/

I spent a few years learning about mind control, Darkmage. Unfortunately, it's no joke. I agree that they should be taken to a psych ward, but deprogramming is a grueling process, quite seriously. It's been a long, harrowing struggle for me to get my own head clear of that shit, and I don't think you ever entirely do. There's always this thought, in the back of my mind, somewhere; "What if it really is true? What if I really am damned?"

It was that sort of cognitive dissonance that was the main thing that fucked Crowley up, and kept him referring to himself as "the Beast," etc. The Mafia being one of Italy's other major exports besides Catholicism, is no coincidence. Once you're in, you never truly get out; not completely.

I know all about the dark legacy of European colonialism--the British kept the ethnic groups fighting each other so that way they couldn't unite and kick out the British. That legacy unfortunately remains. I don't expect them to *want* to be like the West, but that doesn't change the fact they often want what we have, and then the mindsets clash and everything hits the fan.

It was European colonialism originally, however these days it's that, the diamond trade, and native animal poachers and socialist regional warlords with their own private armies, and guns sold to them by said colonial powers. That's the reason why Africa is a black hole in terms of foreign aid, as well. World Vision or whoever else can build schools and water pumps, and plant crops as much as they want; the Marxist warlords and their armies just come in and burn the whole lot of it down, or blow it up; and that's exactly how the American and English diamond pirates like it, too. They don't want the aid initiatives to really be successful, because they know that that is the first step towards the African nations becoming successful in their own right, and thus independent.

Here's the question I have though--even if these people reverted to their tribal ways of life, they've been 'corrupted' by the West and can never go back to a pre-colonial mindset.

I don't know much about Vodoun, it's true; but I'm assuming that their spirits are still there. If that's true, they could return to some aspects of tribalism at least fairly easily. The indigenous way, I had thought, is always inspired; they have contact with their spirits, who give them information about appropriate ways to live. If they can still do that, then if the other national powers and interests got out, they could work something out.

Haiti is a failed state, basically. They have more NGO's there per capita than any other nation and they still can't get their shit sorted out. They need to ask themselves where they want to be as a country, and what do they want for their people? Not starving is a good first step, but what happens after that? What sort of industries do they want to attract? What kind of nation do they want to be? It's easy to blame others, and in Haiti's case a lot of it is frankly justified, but there comes a time when blame doesn't do anything to get problems on the ground fixed.

They won't be able to get the other countries out, and that is their main problem. If they could get all the foreign corporations out, they would have a chance. I've never seen a scenario where if people are allowed to start really listening to, and working with, their Gods again, there isn't a way back. They need to get the corporations out. If they don't do that, nothing else they do will help them.

De Beers is Dutch South African (Afrikaans), not English or American. Most of the diamond cutters were Dutch, then fled to England and then NYC during WWII as most of them are Hasidic Jews. De Beers has had several court judgements against them for price fixing and breaking various and sundry anti-trust laws.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Beers

Blood diamonds are conflict diamonds and usually mined by slave labour. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_diamond There's been more and more interest in where stones come from over the last 15 years, and a lot of the 'don't ask don't tell' philosophy is gone. It's not gone completely, though, and this is unfortunate.

This is also a reason why I prefer lab-created sapphires and rubies to the mined variety. They're physically and chemically identical, but the lab-created ones are blank slates. They're usually created in factories in Japan, North America, and Europe, unlike the mined versions which are usually dug out by slave labour in Burma, then smuggled across the Thai border and sold. Proceeds go to the Thai cops (not exactly paragons of virtue as they're known as being brutal and corrupt) and the Burmese military government who's the one forcing their people to dig these up in the first place. Not cool.

Darkmage..... seriously? Did you give Petrus a reputation point for quoting the Matrix? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

+1 is techsupport slang that means something especially pertinent or creative. I think I've handed out two rep points for all the time I've been here? Quoting the Matrix gets him the equivalent of a high five but not a rep point, sorry. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) <3

Oh, and I forgot something that I wanted to add about Petrus saying if the corps were kicked out, everyone would be OK. Not necessarily--look at Somalia. They have no corporations there, sure. They also have no functioning government, no infrastructure, and no real industry to speak of except for piracy. The US has a vested interest in seeing that Haiti stays at least remotely stable, jingoistic though it sounds. Somalia is giving everyone migraines and if we can stop another one forming, we should.

Darkmage..... seriously? Did you give Petrus a reputation point for quoting the Matrix? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nonono.gif)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQHfoz9Be7U

Oh, and I forgot something that I wanted to add about Petrus saying if the corps were kicked out, everyone would be OK. Not necessarily--look at Somalia. They have no corporations there, sure. They also have no functioning government, no infrastructure, and no real industry to speak of except for piracy. The US has a vested interest in seeing that Haiti stays at least remotely stable, jingoistic though it sounds. Somalia is giving everyone migraines and if we can stop another one forming, we should.

According to Wikipedia, the Transitional Federal Government is back in power in Somalia, as of 2009. For a long time there was a problem with an Islamic group wanting to establish Sharia law, but apparently the Ethiopians formed an alliance with some other people and subdued them, during 2007-2008. The rest of the Islamic Courts Union has apparently been assimilated by the new parliament. From what Wikipedia says, Somalia's main problem was also bad colonial boundaries. There was a part of the country that originally belonged to them, but Britain I think it was, gave it to Ethiopia, and the usual sort of border conflict erupted as a result. India has the same problem with Kashmir, and that was also what happened with Iraq and Kuwait. Both of those countries were colonial inventions; they both used to be part of the old Mesopotamia.

Vodoun possibly needs to be given state backing in Haiti, if that is the majority's religion, and the Christians told to get out. People might not be able to live without food, but Kali has taught me that it's not a whole lot easier to live without your God, either.

Obviously this is a case of Christian hypocrisy at its best. The power of Christianity is fear. If I would call any religion evil its that one , because aside frim Jesus himself, the religion encourages ignorance, intolerance, violence, and slavery.
I know that's gonna sound bad and hurt feelings but it needs to be said. Using fear to control people is as low as it gets. The mark of true dictatorship

Sorry guys I don't mean to sound harsh. For real, Christianity is gonna have to realize that they aren't the only kids on the block that matter.