The -holy- Bible, the -perfect- Al Quran, How holy, how perfect? Options

Someone told me that some editor in Rome (?) back then compiled and published the original Bible. Many of the works "submitted" by the "prophets" did not make it to the printer, for example, the book of Barabas (IMG:style_emoticons/default/fie.gif) I also read from somewhere that rather than the true doctrine, a lot of the roman/church political agendas were emphasised on the published bible we have until now. Does not sound holy to me.

The muslim said that Al Quran is the "perfect book". Someone said that, the Quran is a copy from the bible's old testament, written verbatim (with various mistakes and personal agendas) by Muhammad as he learned/memorized it from a travelling hebrew priest (the first?) who's trying to convert Arab's to christianity (stories I heard also said that he killed the priest to cover his track).

I read a few of the Al Quran translations and just like my findings on the bible, it also has many contradictions. Does not look perfect to me.

The priests of religions would probably counter the contradictions by putting us in the blame by saying things like,"there are no contradiction, you're simply misreading it." or,"it only applies at that time" and "have a blind faith - happy is he who does not see yet believes". Well, I ain't blind and my God-given intelligence refuses to be force-fed by someone else's dogmas and agendas.

How does a holy and a perfect doctrines CAN be misread? It is very much does not look, sound holy nor even perfect to me. Once, it does feels holy and perfect - but only back then when I was very young and ignorant, being like the sheep religions often wants us to be.

Where does this "promised land" the book talks about? Sounds like a carrot in a stick to me. Look at Israel vs Palestine right now. A fight and massacre over a piece dust and stone?

And what kind of God we had if his religions promotes war, revenge, blood sacrifices, hate and fear? An eye for an eye? stone them to death? cut off his hand/head? lay low when you're weak then strike hard without mercy when you're strong? it is ok to make slave, rape woman (and children!) as your spoils of war? Then the new better testament come out and it is said to correct/compliment the old. WTF? A divine "God's" laws should not have the possibility of being misread, it should not confuse, it must be eternal by nature and its philosophies must be applicable to every situations.

I think, the kingdom of heaven may not come. There are no heaven and hell either. It is already and had always been with us, in our hearts and our minds.

~A loving person lives in a loving world. A hostile person lives in a hostile world~

What happens when mortal and flawed -translate and edit divine words.....
Messages of Jesus where too pure for our society ....our needs are great -to punish -to avenge -to possess -to be first -to control...and so we create something more suitable...
(how can i ,who am devoted be considered the same worth and be placed in a same place as someone who is not?)


this link can be fun (and sad) http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/index.htm

I agree with Kinjo, we all are being flocked as sheep by our religions. All religions have some or the other mistakes, flaws, contradictions, use what word u want, but it is there in all religions.

I am Hindu, i studied a Bible in the Christian school i went to, i read quran from a friend, i read the Zoraster (Holy book of Parsises) in a library, & have read excrepts from various other so called 'Holy' books of other religions, all have mistakes, flaws & contradictions in them.

I am diguisted with all the shortcomings in the world & the religions & ppl who blindly believe it all.

I agree there are some stuff which i still believe even now, but still the concept of blindly beliving a (any or many) religion(s), is a thing of the past & i suggest & advice ppl to do the same.

And what kind of God we had if his religions promotes war, revenge, blood sacrifices, hate and fear? An eye for an eye? stone them to death? cut off his hand/head? lay low when you're weak then strike hard without mercy when you're strong? it is ok to make slave, rape woman (and children!) as your spoils of war? Then the new better testament come out and it is said to correct/compliment the old. WTF? A divine "God's" laws should not have the possibility of being misread, it should not confuse, it must be eternal by nature and its philosophies must be applicable to every situations.

Those words caught my attention. That is what most religions & ppl want & think like these days. Forgot these days, that is how they thought even more than a thousand years ago.

I was recently seeing the "Crusades: The Cresent & the Cross" program in History Channel, & it is painful to see that so many ppl fought, so many suffered in various ways, so many died, & for so many years they fought, but for what??

Both were promised the heaven by their religious & political leaders, but what did they really get?? I would really like to know what really happened to them.

As for the Heaven & Hell concept i still believe that they exist, but also believe strongly that life is heaven if u want it & hell if u want it, it means the life here is how u want it to be.

I do not believe any spiritual text to be the absolute word of G-d, but I do believe in the spiritual guidence to be found in all spiritual texts.

I agree political motivation is rampant in the formation of the Bible, but I don't believe it negates the messages which can be found in the texts itself. The compilation of the Bible was done in many stages and through many councils. Here's an interesting link which shows the many stages it went through:

Wikipedia

The old testament is mainly a history of the Hebrew people and, I feel, should be read as such. Of course their G-d had to be bigger, badder and war like. How else would a people unite under one god?

The new testament is both the story of Christ and the forming of the Church.

I think it's all about perspective. If spiritual text is taken literally then contradictions will be seen, if it's taken as allegory, as spiritual ideas which can only be given language through parables, it makes a lot more sense. The new testament makes even more sense when other sacred texts of the time are read in conjuction with it, like the Gnostic texts.

I do not agree that Christ's messages were too pure for any society or time. But then, I don't believe Christ was any more divine than I am, more enlightened than I am at this moment, I'm sure, but I feel Christ and I share the same spark, as do all, and that I am capable of the same level of spirituality.

I'm a nontrinitarian Christian (which in itself shows that there are different ways of reading the bible), but whenever a Christian tells me that the bible is the perfect word of God, I simply point this out to them (from the resurrection passages of each gospel):

Matthew 28:1-10
There's an earthquake which knocks away the guards as an angel comes down and sits on the tomb stone, and then the women meet Jesus on their way to tell the disciples.

Mark 16:1-8
No earthquake, stone already rolled away and an angel inside the tomb. No guards to be seen. No Jesus.

Luke 24:1-12
No earthquake, stone already rolled away, two angels inside the tomb. No guards to be seen. Disciples come back and check the tomb. No Jesus.

John 20:1-9
Stone already rolled away, no angels, no guards, no Jesus, and the women think Jesus' body has been stolen. Disciples come back and check the tomb.

Each one is slightly different, and in many aspects they're mutually contradictory, but we get the general idea of what happened. So we can easily say the bible is not the perfect word of God (in fact, I can point to passages that had bits added inexplicably later by the Catholics), but dig deep enough, and you get a fairly good idea of what the bible is saying.

God did not gift us with the holy Books. God taught us and gave us lessons. Its us who in order to group all of God’s concept and lessons created holy books. However as mentioned, us, mankind, especially rulers and high priests had always wanted unquestionable power and I do believe that holy saying have been in a way adapted and tampered to create holy books that these rulers and priests wanted…

Perhaps this is what God expect of us, Humans... To use the gift given by god, (Intelligence and free will) to decide what is good and what is bad. I don’t so much believe in these books. And surely Kinjo, I’m completely sure that God never tells to
“lay low when you're weak then strike hard without mercy when you're strong? it is ok to make slave, rape woman (and children!) as your spoils of war?” Its more a version of those sadistic religious leaders who uses the faith of people to mislead them.

I wish Humans were more intelligent so as to believe in the divinity inside them that to believe those so called spiritual leaders.

A very good example of the manipulative religious leaders is Pope Innocent (although I forget which one, I believe it was the 3rd), who declared that murdering people is perfectly fine, so long as you don't do it with hatred in your heart - that way he could allow the crusades, and thereby help secure a better trade vantage for the European nations as well as give their princes new realms to rule over.

i do agree that no book or word is holy in itself.

How does a holy and a perfect doctrines CAN be misread? It is very much does not look, sound holy nor even perfect to me. Once, it does feels holy and perfect - but only back then when I was very young and ignorant, being like the sheep religions often wants us to be.

But this is a bit too extreme. Every book can be misread, it does not matter if it is holy or not. And nobody claimed that a holy book must be clear and understandable to all. You assume that a holy book must be understandable, yet nobody but yourself claimed that it should be so.
I think a holy book is a book that is often if not always misread. Because the unenlightened lack the insight to understand it.

I do not think the bible and other books are holy per se, i think they are books, with words, that may provide some insights to some, and none to others.

They are books that are also used to fight wars over. However, books don't kill people, people kill people. Its easy to lay the blame on religion, but in fact a religion is not able to hold a gun. It is people that do so. Right now the likes of al quada are quite skilled in recruiting people for their war, using a so called holy book. But it is all quada that does the killing, not the books. These scriptures are just being used. Call it good marketing if you want. its just like the advertising we get on tv, pure bullshit.

This post has been edited by A_Smoking_Fox: Feb 26 2006, 06:21 AM

If you want to really understand Judaism, Christianity and their conceptions of God, you have to realize that there are thousands and thousands of different factors that shaped the history of these religions and revelations and scriptures. You have to approach the scriptures and the institutions and the history and the practices and beliefs from many different angles. You have to see these traditions through the lenses of science, art, mysticism and magic. And you have to understand that they are composite traditions that have been absorbing and stacking the diverse experiences of diverse people for thousands of years. It is very, very difficult to make sense of it all in one fell swoop.

The god we see in scriptures and organized religion is an idolatrous and demonic imposter that keeps us from seeking the God of Truth. At the same time, He is the echo of the Jews and the Christians' authentic experience of Divinity filtered almost beyond recognition through millenia of historical experience and reexperience. The Bible we have today is an edited, poltically-correct version of a small selection of approved texts from a vast genre. And these texts themselves are fragmentary pieces of an oral tradition passed down for decades seamlessly woven in with layer upon layer of interpretations, assumptions, explanations and clarifications granted by successive generations. Is it any wonder people have so much trouble understanding such a god? It can be the most ugly thing in the world to us if we look at is as a landfill that people must rummage through to find the remains of Christos, Yisrael, and Yahuwah. And yet, when you come to find both gems and debris in that pile, you realize that the Bible can also be like the floor of a beautiful, ancient forest, where all kinds of trees root themselves in the remains of fallen trees that came before them, and struggling to root themselves through layers of decomposed wood, leaves, rocks and earth, they grow up twisting and contorting in every direction to reach towards the light.

Some trees that grow from that forest of tradition grow outside of the canopy, and peer outside and beyond that forest, to see the splendor of a pure sunlight shining down upon a vaster world than imagined - a light that was beautiful enough filtered through the forest, but which is appreciated by the tallest trees in a way that those beneath them cannot conceive. We have outgrown the place we came from, but we shouldn't forget our roots.

Many people who come to magic throw out the baby with the bathwater. Having been abused by their religious upbringing, they can see only a cruel and vindictive god and a history of repression. Understandably, they turn to different gods and different faiths and leave these traditions behind completely. If they do not continue to hold them in the utmost contempt, then the most they can evoke for them is pity for their adherents and speculation that once upon a time, long before the church and the synagogue, there might have been a good man from Nazareth, and a God of Justice in Yisrael.

If people have to go that route, then no one can blame them. They have received such a twisted, perverted and ossified version of what once were among the most profound faiths in the world that they are not obligated to remain loyal to these traditions. They were never under an authentic covenant, old or new, in which with all their options available, and with full knowledge and consent, without coersion on any level, and in full faith and trust, they pledged yourself to a God, a Savior, an Ideal, or a Dream.

It is hard work to be a mystic or a mage in these traditions - harder I would say than in other faiths that are polytheist or atheist. But for all the problems, there is great wisdom and power in the Judeo/Christian tradition that cannot be found elsewhere. Just studying it objectively, seeing both the good and the bad and how one verse could mean hundreds of different things to different people and yet be authentic in each of those ways, you find a lot to appreaciate. And if you seek experience and communion with Christ and God, they grant you what "eyes have not seen, what ears have not heard, what has not come upon the hearts of men". Judaism and Christianity and the mystical and magical traditions within them have things to offer to you and the world that no other tradition has. And, I believe, they offer the most powerful means to reverse all the horror that was done in their name.

The God of Yisrael is a challenge. Once, Yahuwah fought for Yisrael. Once, Yahuwah fought for justice. He could do it again - if hearts, minds, souls and situations favor it.

God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods: "How long will you defend the unjust and show partiality to the wicked? Selah! Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked. (Psalm 85)

When the justice of the God of Yisrael was taken to a fanatical extreme, then Christos came to Earth and restored the balance with grace, compassion, and love. With these two pillars in harmony, there is nothing people cannot accomplish.

There is a great treasure waiting to be discovered within these lost faiths. Its something I believe that was powerful enough to return the world to paradise. If people leave the God of Yisrael and his Meshiach behind, no one can fault them. But they must answer their calls for Justice, for Holiness, for Wisdom, and for Truth. That is the legacy of these traditions. That is their challenge to the world - something wonderful to live up to.

14 "But if serving YHWH seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve YHWH."

16 Then the people answered, "Far be it from us to forsake YHWH to serve other gods! 17 It was YHWH our God himself who brought us and our fathers up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And YHWH drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve YHWH, because he is our God."

19 Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve YHWH. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake YHWH and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you."

21 But the people said to Joshua, "No! We will serve YHWH."

22 Then Joshua said, "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve YHWH."
"Yes, we are witnesses," they replied. (Joshua)

I'm a nontrinitarian Christian (which in itself shows that there are different ways of reading the bible), but whenever a Christian tells me that the bible is the perfect word of God, I simply point this out to them (from the resurrection passages of each gospel):

I did some more research on biblical stupidity and contradictions today and here's some interesting results:

• Google Results for: bible contradiction
  
• The XXX Rated Bible
  
• A List of Biblical Contradictions
• Answering a List of Biblical Contradictions
  
• Massive List of Bible Contradictions and Errors
• Evilbible.com
• “Obey Thy Ten Commandments, Or Else”
• Koran-The Ultimate Truth
• Apparently Problematic Verses in The Koran - A Dialogue with Contemporary Islam
• Contradictions in the Qur'an

This post has been edited by + Kinjo -: Apr 29 2006, 01:36 AM

The same mystical knowledge that si found in the Bible can be found in the dictionary. There is nothing Holy about a book that was poorly written, to often edited, and badly jumbled together by a group people hell bent on controlling large groups of people. Even the Quaran is a better work of literature than the bible. And its about as stupid.

Skinwalker

IF GOd created everything would any book be a challenge so why did others have to write it.

I did some more research on biblical stupidity and contradictions today and here's some interesting results

The stupid thing I find a lot of the time is that the majority of "contradictions" stem directly from the translation process and the exploitation of English linguistics, which wouldn't exist in the original text and linguistic context.

And a lot of supposed "contradictions" are completely based on the way you read a text - for instance the majority of New Testament contradictions disappear in a non-trinitarian reading, yet remain in a trinitarian reading. That's partially why I am non-trinitarian.

But there's also author fallibility, which is what I was highlighting before.

your right Zahaqiel, there are many ways to interpret the teahcings in the bible which makes it a good read to study, but unfortunately creates confusion. And yes, translators from the original herbrew version didnt do a perfect job, which is why its good to check the original version to confirm an interpretation. I dont think the quaran compares to it though, seeing as there are much more obvious flaws in it. One part for example was talking about when a man dies and all the family members split his money/property. It is saying the first son will get (for example) 1/4, the second will get 1/6, etc but if you add up all the quarters and sixths and all, u get more than 1 whole, so it doesnt even make sense mathematically, where translation is univeral

Nothing is perfect. Everything is holy. The more we think we know anything about God the more ignorant we become. No one can understand God. For to understand God is to be God.

Nothing is perfect. Everything is holy. The more we think we know anything about God the more ignorant we become. No one can understand God. For to understand God is to be God.

I agree, well said!

Here is a copy from a British site h2g2 on the council of Nicea in Constantinople. This was the council which chose which books were to constitute the bible.
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The Council of Nicea

 

Around the start of the 4th Century AD, The Roman Empire was governed by the Emperor Constantine. The Empire at this time was not in the best of health, being a morass of different cults and belief systems. The official state religion was the worship of Sol Invictus, the Sun God, and this was Constantine's own religion. However, the relatively new cult, as it then was, of Christianity was starting to enjoy a groundswell of support, and it did not require much thought to see that steps needed to be taken if Rome's tenuous grip on the Empire was to be strengthened.

Constantine called together a meeting of religious and secular leaders at Nicea, Bythynia, Asia Minor in 325AD to resolve the situation, and it is principally as a result of this meeting that he earned the title of Constantine the Great, bestowed upon him subsequently by Church leaders. It was at this meeting that Constantine and his council resolved that if the proletariat had to have their superstitions, then better it was controlled by the state and adopted policies that the state approved of. It is this meeting that the world has come to know as the Council of Nicea, and from which the world still feels repercussions.

Editor's Discretion

As the cult of Christianity was the one on the rise, it was felt best to tack new policies on the end of this religion - this was the one that clearly stood the best chance of success. One of the principal tasks was to decide which books should constitute the 'Holy Book' of the new religion, which would be the Bible. Therefore, some of the Gospels had to go, and some of the material in the remaining Gospels had to be edited. So, for example, the Gospel of Philip, which had been perfectly creditable until this point, was cut from the Bible. Upon closer inspection however, the reason for Philip's edit became clear when a copy was discovered. It contains passages in which some of the disciples complain about how Jesus appears to favour Mary Magdelene over all the other apostles, and they are annoyed because he is always kissing her on the mouth. Jesus replies that he does favour her and is coy about answering directly and enigmatically says, 'great are the mysteries of marriage'.

The Council of Nicea decided that, with a little selective editing, they could create a irrefutable line of succession based on a supposed quote by Jesus about Peter, namely, 'this is the rock upon which my church is built'. They then made Peter the first Pope, and each successor was nominated by the outgoing Pope, you then had a mandate from Jesus, which could then be construed as being more irrefutable and undeniable than lines of monarchistic descent. Because of this agenda, over 50 books with an equal claim were written off at a stroke. Anything that was included, was really in; hence the term 'Gospel truth'. Anything that was edited out is written off as heretical. Oddly enough, the origins of the word heresy lie with the word for choice.

Now, if Jesus was indeed married and had children, the line of Peter is irrelevant as the blood of the Royal line is more important than the word. So the Gospel of Philip ends up on the cutting room floor, along with any other document or passage that contains references to Jesus's marriage.

Evidence that the church was doing this editing exists. A copy of a letter exists from a 2nd Century church father, Clement of Alexandria, to a correspondent known only as Theodore. Theodore wrote to Father Clement for advice on how to deal with a cult known as the Carpocratians, who appeared to hold heretical views gained from what they call the Secret Gospel of Mark. Unfortunately for the gullible Theodore who had clearly been raised to believe dogma, Father Clement admitted that this secret gospel exists not as a stand-alone document, but as a copy of the Gospel before the Church set their editing scissors to it. Father Clement admitted to its existence but advised him to lie and deny any knowledge of it. Clement described some of the missing passages to him.

The first of these relates to the raising of Lazarus, and in particular the events shortly thereafter. Six days after the raising of Lazarus, it is said that a youth comes to Jesus, wearing just a loincloth, and he stays with Jesus all night, during which time he learns the mysteries of the Kingdom of God. So far from raising one of the dead, it would appear that the raising of Lazarus was merely a symbolic act, indicating that Lazarus has been initiated into a higher rank by Jesus.

Secondly, Mark 11:46 tells how Jesus arrives at Jericho, but by the end of the sentence we are already learning of events concerned with his leaving Jericho. Now there can be only one reason for this - something was cut out. Father Clement confirms that this is indeed the case. The passage cut out reads:
And the sister of the youth whom Jesus loved and his mother and Salome were there, and Jesus did not receive them.

The phrase 'the youth whom Jesus loved' appears elsewhere in the Bible and refers to Lazarus. It has been put forward elsewhere that Lazarus and Mary Magdelene are brother and sister, and the evidence for this is fairly well-documented. The passage itself, at face value, appears to say nothing controversial, but once again it's what is not there that makes it important. The mere act of cutting it means that the church is aware of a situation involving Jesus and Mary Magdelene, and is trying to hide it. Cutting it out has only drawn more attention to it.

Birth and Christmas

So, how to make the name of Jesus all-powerful, and put the church in a position where kings bow to it? After all, what's the point of having this organisation which is capable of ruling the western world through fear and without having to get involved in any messy politics, and then just being content with passing round a collection plate a couple of times a week? The obvious idea was to add some mystique to Jesus, give him an aura of mystery and the supernatural, and to do this the council went back into history for inspiration. Let's consider a few historical figures for a moment:

Gautama Buddha - Born of the virgin Maya around 600BC.

Dionysus - Greek God, born of a virgin in a stable, turned water into wine.

Quirrnus - An early Roman saviour, born of a virgin.

Attis - Born of the virgin Nama in Phyrgia around 200BC.

Indra - Born of a virgin in Tibet around 700BC.

Adonis - Babylonian God, born of the virgin Ishtar

Krishna - Hindu deity, born of the virgin Devaki around 1200BC.

Zoroaster - Born of a virgin sometime between 1500BC and 1200BC.

Mithra - Born of a virgin on December 25 around 600BC.

The popular Cult of Mithra (or Mithras) was indeed an embarrassment to the early church. Its roots are probably in Syria and it is believed to be an offshoot of the Persian cult of Zoroaster. It seems to have been introduced into the Roman Empire around 67BC. Born in a stable to a virgin, birthday celebrated on 25 December, died and reborn, Passover celebrated around Easter, whose rites of worship involved the ingestion of food and drink that were symbolic of eating the flesh of Mithra, and all this 600 years before the birth of Christ. Also included were rites of baptism, the belief in immortality, resurrection, a judgement at the end between Heaven and Hell, and a saviour who died and was resurrected to act as a mediator between man and God.

Ignoring the fact that young girls had apparently been giving birth to saviours and deities for a number of centuries, it appeared that it would be extremely difficult for the church to pass off Mithra lightly. But these were desperate men, and ultimately the church concocted a story about how the devil was such a wily adversary he had gone back in time to 'plant' Mithra as an obvious forerunner of Jesus, which was intended to sow seeds of doubt into the minds of the dubious.

And thus the concept of the Holy Trinity was born. The one god now split into three, and the figurehead who always claimed he was the son of man was now proclaimed as the Son of God. And the mysterious Holy Ghost, who still baffles experts to this day, appeared more or less out of nowhere. So now when Jesus says of Peter, 'This is the rock upon which my church is built', he is not just a rebellious political leader, he is the Son of God.

Other aspects of Jesus were modified to make him more acceptable to those who still worshipped the official state religion of Sun God Worship. Two dates have been put forward for Jesus's true birthday, one in early March and one early in September. This celebration was moved to 25 December because this is the date of the major feast of Sol Invictus.

This is not everything decreed by the Council, merely an illustration of the way the Church has distorted history. After all, it has been said that if you control history, then you control the future.



ENTRY DATA

Written and Researched by:
Dazinho


Edited by:
Ashley Stewart-Noble


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Holy Blood and the Holy Grail
Sep 10, 2004

Surprising
May 5, 2004

Comments about the facts.
Apr 28, 2004

Council of Nicea
Apr 28, 2004

Council of Nicea
Apr 26, 2003

Rise of Christianity
Mar 28, 2003


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Someone told me that some editor in Rome (?) back then compiled and published the original Bible. Many of the works "submitted" by the "prophets" did not make it to the printer, for example, the book of Barabas I also read from somewhere that rather than the true doctrine, a lot of the roman/church political agendas were emphasised on the published bible we have until now. Does not sound holy to me.

The muslim said that Al Quran is the "perfect book". Someone said that, the Quran is a copy from the bible's old testament, written verbatim (with various mistakes and personal agendas) by Muhammad as he learned/memorized it from a travelling hebrew priest (the first?) who's trying to convert Arab's to christianity (stories I heard also said that he killed the priest to cover his track).

I read a few of the Al Quran translations and just like my findings on the bible, it also has many contradictions. Does not look perfect to me.

I MUST agree with Kinjo on this one. The Bible, which is a clever magickal deception, is a very interesting read. However, it does NOT contain any of the workings of Jesus when he was a 'mortal man'. Any writings which refered to his normal life were omitted and only the writings which refer to him as 'the Son Of God' or a miracle being were permitted. This was decided by way of a vote for the Roman Catholic church to gain absolute power. The Bible is a re-write of all for man to gain power over man. It is a document of manipulation. There has been so much rewriting and changing and omissions over the ages that the original gist of the writings has been lost forever. Indeed it is said that the winner of any conflict writes the history and all documentation of this is merely from the winner's viewpoint. In this instance it is the Roman Catholic church. Nothing of the loser ... the original pagan beliefs ... is recorded. It goes without saying that the male god of fertility Baphomet has been mistreated by the RC to represent the Devil! Indeed it goes without saying that the original Light Bringer Lucifer has been transformed into something evil also by the RC!!! To be controversial ... the good guy portrayed by the RC (Michael) is in fact the bad guy ....

As for the Koran ... well ... I am currently in Qatar ... a strict Muslim country ... I've read extracts of the Koran here .... I can only conclude it is a misfit text .... made somewhere in the past as a rehash of the Bible .... Jesus is revered in its text, Muslims here use rosary beads and many of their practices are very catholic and very pagan ....

I despise religion ... it doesnt free man ... it is a weapon for the powerful to control the weak and the masses. I doubt anything written in 'holy' texts ever came from God ..... maybe say 5% of writings as a maximum .... most has been contrived to gain control over very god fearing naive people.

The Bible fascinates me ... not as words of god or as a holy text ... but because of the ancient symbolism hidden within its pages ..... messages from the past which are there before the eyes which cannot be taken literally ... but in the sense they were originally intended .... as metaphores .... if the entire flock of RC worshippers were to read it in the way it was intended .... the world would change over night!

I do agree that by looking at the psychology of the bible rather than purely its message I can see how its a parlor trick to get people to play along. And ultimately sacrfice (money and blood) in the name of a belief system. Philosophically, other than its mesoginy, I see little reason to question the moral message to the bible. But taking it and its stories as the word of God is stupid in my opinion. I think God is far beyond words we could ever hope to understand and I think attempting to compile a series of absolute truths into a book of fantastic stories and forcing people to follow it is blasphemy in it self. No its an abomination that triggers wars, suffering and death in the name of a religion. I can't agree with that at all.

In actuallity its not the bible, the book itself, that is blame for organized religion. The bible was created by a council of theologians who felt they were communicating the "true" message of Christianity. Like a gun does not kill people, the bible did not make fanatics or fundamentalism. The church did. This organized establishment that controled the "tool", the bible, also controled the actual message of Christianity and lead other christians by their noses by claiming divine authority. Religion doesn't bother me so much. Organized religion I hate with a passion.

Sadly enough if we to suddenly fall back into the dark ages it would be the mass religions of this world that would dominate.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Oct 3 2006, 05:07 PM

dont you think that god knows that poeple make mistakes
god chose his prophets and guide them whith holy spirit and gave us holy books . so we cant have any excuses in the after life by saying god i didnt know