The Necronomicon A Oto Stolen Secret? Options

I have been reading some opinions on a matter that got me thinking---is the Necronomicon a stolen OTO secret that was presented to the masses--very akin to what Crowley did the GD (Golden Dawn) by presenting magickal secrets to the masses. Suddenly I am beginning to think this may be true. This is why there are so many hell bent on stopping the book--then these Orders would lose power because any soul can develop magickal skills by their own training and no need for a guru that demands ur soul and $$$. W/ the Necro u are the priest in the midst of the eternal initiation....the Gods decide when u advance--not a high priest or whatever or whomever u pay $$ to.

Ok, Im going on too much w/ no point: my thesis is the Necronomicon is a stolen secret from the OTO that was given over to the masses to discover and explore for the OTO was doing nothing w/ it that was magickally useful.

I know--this theory is on choppy waters..........but do at the very least give it a thought!

Laterz........

before I respond to this I recommend it get moved to fight club.

My thoughts exactly. Kicked to the Fight Club.

Ashnook

Totally groovy.

I want a clean fight.

Protect yourself at all times.

No hitting below the belt.

Shake hands.

Round one.

Ding! DIng!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sport_boxing.gif)

Well I presented this topic to see if we could get to the bottom of theREAL history of the current MS of the Necronomicon. I mean Kenneth Grant stated more than a few times the importance of the Sumerians in the "discovery" of magick. Even Crowley used a term all us Necronomicon readers will find very familiar : "When one is clothed in her armor one is similar to the Goddess" (this quote might not be word for word accurate--but any Crowley readers know what quote I am saying here). We all know what Goddess they speak of--mainly Mighty Queen INANNA! Heres another one for you all, when utilizing the Qabalisitc Geomancy method of letter counting(which Crowley used to no end--often messing w/ spellings of words to achieve an end in his own mind!) one finds the Egyptian God PTAH = 93. Well if one thing Zecharia Sitchin is true--I believe its his association of PTAH w/ ENKI as being the same God. Since PTAH=93, and the word of the New Age =93, since AIWASS=93, and Thelema =93-----would that not make ENKI responsible for the unearthing of age old arcane secrets via Crowley? I dont think Crowley had possession of the MS of the Necronomicon or anything--I think it was a project the OTO as a whole (or inner circle initiates/Priests) were working on. Once completed the ones who had the MS were doing nothing w/ it, and this is where our friend "Simon" steps in. Well, we know the story (kind of *wink,wink*) from this point Im sure.......

Granted--I do understand I have just thrown an accusation out there w/ absolutely no real tangable proof.........but it deserves an examination still!

Laterz........

In the Acknowledgements to the Necronomicon special thanks is given to
the demon Perdurabo "Without whose help the presentation of this book
would have been impossible."
This comes to us from Larry Barnes as his signature is at the bottom
of the page.
Perdurabo was Aleister Crowley's frater name. Who the book is also
dedicated to.

So the claim is that it would have been impossible to present the
book without the demon? Aleister Crowley? Is this a claim that like
only a true Necromancer could the spirit of Crowley was contacted for
help in presenting this book?

We all know the many blinds which Crowley threw at us seemingly as
an inside joke. Simon admits he has put some blinds in the Nec
system to protect the system from abusers. Perhaps in emulation of Crowley?

So what do you guys think? Was Simon and L.k. Barnes in contact
with the shade or ghost of Ozzy Osbourne's Mr. Crowley???

Could this be Larry Barnes incarnated thought form from pg vii B.A.K????

Lets make a mental note that the third member of the Unholy Trinity on
pg vii James Waserman of Studio 31 is the James Wasserman who wrote
the 48 pg instruction booklet for Aleister Crowley's Deck of Thoth
tarot cards.

The claim on pg vii – viii is that James Waserman is
dead but from help of the stone of the wise and certain formulae of
the Necronomicon continues to go about his business as a living man.

"Our work therefore historically authentic; the rediscovery of the
Sumerian tradition."
Aleister Crowley

So was the Necronomicon manufactured by the OTO? Most of the OTO members which I have met like to say that the Necronomicon is fake. They do not seem to appreciate it for the great magick system which it is.

The suspicious OTO links do not bother me much. I believe the book can be a genuine 8th century text and still have these links.

However I have never questioned whether or not Simon himself is an OTO member.

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Dec 25 2006, 10:52 PM

I'd be supriesed if there is a real, provable, answer to this debate. For one the Necronomicon is a Greek word, the mad Arab would have had to either write his work in Greek or his orignal works were translated. Both can create the chance that something ended up mistranslated because, regardless if one is Greek or Arab, we always try to describe things in our native language that might not translate the same way into other languages. Assuming Simon's nec is based on a real 8th century text then somewhere somebody had to translate it into English, perhaps from even another language, like Latin or something else. So this means there is most likely some margin of error in the meaning of the words do to the translation process. The same is true for the Bible. The original bible was translated into Latin from Greek gospels, which more than likely, were translations of Aremaic, Hebrew or possibly even Egyptian works. So its safe to say that what the mad Arab might have wrote and what Simon said he wrote are, at least in part, two different things.

Then there is the account that the arab was shredded in public by the Nec's demons. - Well whats this based on? What is the historical record that validates this? Perhaps this greusome death was a ploy on the part of Simon to entice readers into the veil of darkness he wished to convey. If so is this eluring dark image of the Nec's entities accurate?

That takes me to the very matter of the summerian religion itself, which the nec is supposedly based on. Everything I've been taught in history classes says the majority of the original Summerian language and religion was lost by the Assyerians who took it over and even more so once the Persians invaded. Since Babylon remained the Assyerian seat of power it makes since that they would incorperate the religion into their power structure. But this lead to a problem - the religion was translated from anceint Summerian into Assyrian, the possibility of mis-translations was inevitable and indeed what we base much of our knowledge of the Summerian religion is from Assyerian texts, not Summerian. The Summerian language had been largely destroyed by the various invasions - i.e. the Assyerians and the Persians. And once the Persians invaded it was all over for Babylon and its culture, the same was likely true for other settlements that practiced any version of the old summerian religion. That in itself is another issue- the summerian religion was actually a cultural system based on the socio-political structure of the Summerians. The Summerians were not one unifed people with a single religion. They were a culture of people who lived in many city states and practiced many versions of the same culturally based beliefs. The Summerian religion for Ur varied differently from Babylon or Uruk or Enlil or any number of other city states.

Thus if the mad arab based his tomb on the Summerian religion it was from either some highly arcaic source (and perhaps unreliable) that has been lost to the ages or Assyrian texts, rather than Summerian, that survived. That means the 8th century Arab would have had to been able to translate ancient Assyrian into old Arabic, or at least read it. This language barrier is formidable and, imo, shreds any historical validity to any Necronomicon that accurately depicts the practices of the original Summerian religion (the Assyrian version is more likely and even then I doubt it).

Then there is the whole matter of the rise of Islam. Granted for a time there was tollerance of Pagan beliefs by the 8th century Islam had grown large enough that it was the major religion in the region. Aquiring the knowledge of the pagans and practicing it was the difference between not being a heretic and being a heretic. This means the mad arab might have been an outcast if he really did practice what he wrote. And what he wrote might not have even been based on the original summerian works but some second hand source. If he was actually killed in public it was more likely as a result of his practices, the demons were as human as you or I.

Through all this, if what the mad arab wrote was truely a work that archeologist valued it would have gained more noteriety - it'd be more well known. What is more well known, even if only to other historians or archeologist, is historically tracable. Meaning that somewhere there either is or was the original works of the mad arab or at least some evidence that it did indeed exist - I have not been able to find any such evidence.

So if the Necronomicon was actually an OTO secret then its one we were not meant to truely figure out. The OTO would had to have either the original work in their possession plus the records of the book existance, or what they had, if anything, was no more or less reliable than Simon's Nec.

In my opinion, Simon saw the litterary genius to Lovecraft's works and wanted to create his own ingenius book that was based, in part, on what we think we know of the Summerian religion but it was mostly fiction. I don't think the mad arab ever existed and his narrative was only created to attempt to convey a level of darkness over the book in the likeness of Lovecraft's vission.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 26 2006, 04:45 PM

The thing that always strikes me most about the Necronomicon is that it doesn´t seem to be in one straight narrative block, or even one writing style. It seems like a collection of books written possibly by different authors. It could well have been possible that this was done before the Mad Arab got his hands on it. It could also be possible that the manuscript had been edited or added to after the Mad Arab´s death, which would account for all those inconsistencies Harmes and Gonce keep on harping on about.

The blinds in it could well have been done by Crowley, or another member of the Golden Dawn. Waite and Mathers were both not above either adding blinds or just plain messing up (see Enochian Magick).

It would of course have come into Crowley´s hands, and via the OTO could have either have come direct to Simon, or via the process in Dead Names.

Yes I know there are holes here, but it was just something I thought worth looking into.

Greetings Acid,

The claim is that the Nec was written in Greek. It could be a translation of the Arabs journal. Aramaic? Most surprising to me is that if written in the 8th Century I would expect it to be in Latin.

The Mad Arab was not shredded in public. I believe you are thinking of Abdul Ben Martu who grew a demon so powerful it decided to eat him?

I believe the Nec is more based from the Babylonian era than Sumerian era. The Babylonians and Chaldea’s spoke the same language as the Sumerians. I am not too sure on what the Assyrians spoke. However my wife is Turkish <Old Sumerian land> she says some of the words are very similar with same meaning. Certainly a lot can be lost in translation though.

There can be many versions of the same religion. From child molesting priests to talking in tongues and rolling in the floor I think the Christians are living proof of that.

The Assyrians were around from 2000 BC by AD they were no longer in power. The Assyrian religion was very similar to the Sumerian Babylonian and Chaldea. I believe around the 8th century the Persian Empire held power in Iran etc. During this time like my wife they were Sunni Muslim. Yes indeed they would have put the Arab to death during that time for practicing magick.

Was the Mad Arab really living in the 8th century though? His travels and dealing with the powers of various countries sounds much older to me.

All Grimores have dubious origins. I for example love the Book of Abra Melin the Mage. I do not believe everything said in the story though. Because I am not an idiot. Lets take for example the Mad Arab tells us in the beginning of the book that a rock floated and huge snakes came out of the ground and 5 to 7 men cut themselves so badly that blood poured downhill. I do not believe this. Because I am not an idiot. However its typical for such a story to be in a Grimore. The Mad Arab does however cover his tracks by telling us that he had unwittingly made his fire that night with a strange grass which helps the mind travel. In other words he was on some really good drugs.!

Greetings,


In the late sixth and early seventh centuries, many Sabaean people had continued to migrate from the land of Yemen following the destruction of the Ma'rib Dam (sadd Ma'rib) and became Bedouin. At this time when the Kingdom of Aksum did not have any intentions on keeping their ancient lush kingdom,that had become barren land from extending commerce trade of its lucrative spice trade with the Romans, Persian Sassanid kings. Yemen was successively incorporated into the Ethiopian and Persian Sassanid empires. In the 7th century, Islamic caliphs began to exert control over the area. After this caliphate broke up, the former North Yemen came under control of Imams of various dynasties usually of the Zaidi sect, who established a theocratic political structure that survived until modern times. (Imam is a religious term. The Shiites apply it to the prophet Muhammad's son-in-law Ali, his sons Hassan and Hussein, and subsequent lineal descendants, whom they consider to have been divinely ordained unclassified successors of the prophet.)

Now, it must be remembered that the Sabaeans were an ancient people speaking a South Semitic language who lived in what is today Yemen,(where the Mad Arab supposedly wrote the Necronomicon) northern Ethiopia and Eritrea. Their ancient Sabaean Kingdom lasted from the early 1st millennium to the 1st century BC. In the 1st century BC it was conquered by the Himyarites, but after the disintegration of the first Himyarite empire of the Kings of Saba' and dhu-Raydan the Middle Sabaean Kingdom reappeared in the early 2nd century. It was finally conquered by the Himyarites in the late 3rd century. Its capital was Marib and was along the strip of desert that was called Sayhad by medieval Arab geographers and that is called now Ramlat al-Sab`atayn.

The Sabaean people were one of four ancient Yemeni groups (Greek ethnos) classified by Eratosthenes. The others were the Minaeans, Hadramites and Qatabanians. Each of these had regional kingdoms in ancient Yemen, with the Minaeans in the north along the red sea, the Sabeans on the south western tip, streaching from the highlands to the sea, the Qatabanians to the east of them and the Hadramites east of them.
From the above it is clear that much of Yemen was in vigorous trade with Greece and Rome (exposing them to Greek and Latin language) Also, with so many varied peoples living with such close proximity to one another, I find it highly probably that more than just Islam would have endured. If not on large scales, certainly by hermits, outcasts, possibly even remote villages.
Another matter, as I said above, is the Sabaeans were an ancient people who spoke a Southern Semitic language. This language was more than likely derived from the pseudo-semitic tongues of Sumerians, HIttites, Akkadians and Assyrians.
Yemen at the time the Mad Arab supposedly wrote the Nec was a highly diverse place, home to many peoples of varying descent and was also in vigorous contact with many foreign lands. How many tablets, scrolls, stories, beliefs were traded along with the silk, spices and metals?
To say that it would be impossible for Sumerian religious practices to have been completely forgotten by the 7th century A.D I believe is a bit naive and underestimates the tenacity of belief.
Of number of reports coming out of the British Museum have even produced evidence that people were reading and transcribing the Enuma Elish onto clay tablets as late as the fifth and six centuries AD. [attachment=550:attachment]
But overall, we who are priests of the Necronomicon believe in it's power, have met it's Gods and Goddesses and have garnered great results from the rituals therein. So, I guess it doesn't really matter if the rituals are EXACTLY how the Sumerians worshipped their gods or not. They work for us and bring us into the presence of said gods. Good enough for me.
Peace.

Well this is what I was saying, I am thinking the Necronomicon is a creation by some OTO source learned in Sumerian/Babylonian/Chaldean/Assyrian/Akkadian magick. For instance there are spells in the Maklu text that are also in Chaldeac books w/ little difference. Instead of "remember me" it is "conjure it". But my point is someone took a whole host of information and condensed it into a digestable form that we all know of as the Necronomicon. Now that doesnt look too sexy so the Mad Arab tale is put in there to make things interesting. If he was real--cool--if not , so what! I tend to agree w/ Edunpanna that the Necro was derived from a mostly Babylonian source. Anyways, by my use the Necro I have become in contact w/ the spirits contained w/i it and also the atmosphere of the ancient past. Im sure anyone of the users of that book will tell u the same thing as well.

It is a system that was broken apart so it could be reassembled again later on---which is now!

That is my take on it--for now.....

Well this is what I was saying, I am thinking the Necronomicon is a creation by some OTO source learned in Sumerian/Babylonian/Chaldean/Assyrian/Akkadian magick.

Story of the Necronomicon

If you want to know the story of the "Simon" Necronomicon, read the article linked above.

As a fan of the stories since childhood, I had always found the little Avon paperback Necronomicon disappointing. The tales describe it as a sort of historic narrative chronicling the arrival of aliens to Earth billions of years ago, hints at their nature and eventual decline, and their influence on mankind. You do get this with the Simon version, but it is squarely cast in terms of religions we all ought to know about, not monsters from the antediluvian world. Also in Lovecraft and the later stories, Cthulhu is portrayed as a kind of good-guy (he is the High Priest of Yog-Sothoth) albeit a fearsome one. The Lovecraft Necronomicon concept spans galaxies, but in the Simon version we are more or less confined to the local star-system, and instead of interdimensional gates we are given basic planetary invocations. Oh well, so much for the good stuff!

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Dec 27 2006, 09:59 AM

Greetings Imperial Arts,

In Alan Cabal's The Doom That Came to Chelsea <Your LInk> It is said that the FBI infiltrated the OTO just to get close to SImon. Alan Cabal might have been there when it happened as he is OTO. <Search his name and OTO>

So why did the FBI want to check out Simon? Rare book hiest?

And I might also reply when we talk about the Necronomicon--FORGET HP LOVECRAFT AND HIS NECRONOMICON!!!!!!!!!!!! I am quite tired of people who bring up Lovecraft when discussing Simon's Necronomicon. Believe me--Im a huge Lovecraaft fan--I love his FICTIONAL stories! Even if there is a glint of truth in them , in this particular theme we are discussing here--it bears no value!

SO TO ANY OF YOU WHO WANT TO BRING UP THIS AND THAT ABOUT LOVECRAFT's NECRONOMICON---DO IT ELSEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has no bearing on this discussion!

Also Imperial Arts--if you would ever bother to use the Necronomicon u will find that a vast horizon of the universe opens up inside of u. The waves of cosmic water inside ripple and there is movement in the stagnant waters. I think u believe Simon's Necronomicon is a work of COMPLETE fiction w/ no relation to actual historical sources. Like I said--try it out--u will find it is no FAKE--it works.........

But the fact still remains, the real source of the MS of the Necronomicon still remains a mystery and this is what this thread is about--so remember that Lovecraft people!

The claim is that the Nec was written in Greek. It could be a translation of the Arabs journal. Aramaic? Most surprising to me is that if written in the 8th Century I would expect it to be in Latin.

The Aramaic language was used as part of an example for an anology that compared tranlations from the gosples of the bible from various other languages (including Aramaic and Greek) into Latin for the actual Catholic cannon. The point is, due to the simple limmitations of translitteration, there are errors in the translations. And these errors have caused a number of debates into the actual interpretation of the gospels in the bible.

I suspect that the Necronomicon, if real, went through a simlar process - based on a Summerian religion which most of the knowledge we know of comes from secondary sources like the Assyrians, as well as others that saraphim listed. Then this mad arab had to firstly have access to the tablets and be able to read/translate them then, secondly, either be able to write in Greek (necronomicon is Greek not Latin) or somebody else had to interpret his writtings into Greek. Then later somebody else had to translate the Greek version into English. The odds that somebody forgot to dot an i or cross a t, so to speak, within a five thousand year+ period of time of repeated translations into different cultures, are very high, regardless if we're considering Greek or Latin.

Sure there are the Hittites, Chaldeans, the Assyrians etc etc obviously the ancient Hebrew wrote about the Summerians, but they had to translate the works into their language. It is possible that some small sect or cult survived into the 8th century, but doubtfully one that was of any actualy lineage to the original Summerian religion. If the bible is any sort of good example of what can happen when ancient people interpret each other's works, I highly doubt that the Necronomicon (which is supposed to be based on a much older religion) is a historically accurate depiction of the real ancient Summerian religion. There are surely bits and pieces that coinside with what archeologists believe. But that, at best, makes the nec a piece of historical fiction.

Not mention various other inconsistancies that all make the nec a wonderful work of fiction, but not fact. Thats just my opinion. And what my opinion about any OTO connection is that is would be no more or less accurate then that of the Mad Arab. And lets not forget he was *Mad*. For all we know that means he was totally out of his mind and just babbled a bunch of nonesense. I wouldn't take Simon's Nec for gospel.

As long as it works still does it matter? Im fairly new so i dont know you all but are any of you mages a real good dreamer? The best way to find the answers you want in this old of text is from the source. Any experianced (and i mean experianced enough to travel and spend long periods astrally) could be guided easily enough to find these answers.
Hmm maybe i can what are some of the names of the sumarian gods? They are what ive read about the fallen angels in the book of enoch correct? Any good dreamers here could really help me.

Simon is only reasposible for writing the introduction of the book and it is still in the air who wrote the text.

After a breif but very depth meditation i was told to find one of the Zonei? Make any sense? If i can narrow that down and get a specific name ill i need after that is a good couple of nights dreaming.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

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As this is the only Necronomicon which qualifies as a full-blown hoax rather than a spoof or in-joke, it will receive a longer examination than the others. There are quite a number of problems with the volume, all of them impeaching its claims to represent a true text of the Necronomicon.

The claims concerning the supposed manuscript are unconvincing. The publisher states that the MS cannot be held up to public inspection. But scholars would not normally use the actual manuscript of such a work; they would work from a set of photographs of it. Provision of such a set would certainly bolster the book's claim. In any case the story told about the discovery of the manuscript is simply too much like a bad Cthulhu Mythos story to be credible. In addition, they state that the manuscript is in Greek, whereas Lovecraft makes it clear that the Greek text has been lost for centuries. Simon says that one section of his putative translation, the URILLIA TEXT, "might be Lovecraft's R'lyeh Text". Lovecraft, however, never referred to the R'lyeh Text, which was an invention of August Derleth's (after Lovecraft's death); and the work is distinct from the Necronomicon in Derleth's conception.

It is evident that the majority of the work is composed of adaptations of existing translations of various Mesopotamian religious and magickal texts, with Lovecraftian names tossed in wherever the original is unreadable. Simon tosses together Sumerian, Akkadian, Babylonian, and Assyrian materials without discrimination, in an historically impossible fashion. The pieces purporting to represent the original languages of various incantations are apparently simply gibberish.

Simon would like us to see great similarities between both his Mesopotamian material and the magick of Aleister Crowley, and the Lovecraft Mythos, but provides essentially no correspondances between them. What few he does attempt to argue for, are unconvincing. He would like us, for example, to see great similarity between the name Cthulhu and the Greek word stélé (as in Crowley's Stélé of Revealing); -- in the right Greek typeface, it does look kind of like CTH^H. The other entries on his short list are either commonplaces of magick and weird fiction or even less similar. Again, he wants us to notice the similarity between Shub-Niggurath and Crowley's Pan (a commonplace of magick and weird fiction both), whereas Shub-Niggurath is female. (Yog-Sothoth would certainly correspond fairly well, on the other hand, given the basis of "The Dunwich Horror" in Arthur Machen's "The Great God Pan".) Again, he would have us note the similarity between Lovecraft's exclamation Iä!, Crowley's use of the commonplace exclamation Io! and the equally commonplace deity name IAO, and the Sumerian deity name IA, which Simon claims as a variant of the god EA (despite which, in his Necronomicon, it is used as the Lovecraftian exclamation).

Simon also wishes us to see a great correspondance between the Lovecraft Mythos and the Mesopotamian mythologies. He states:

Lovecraft depicted a kind of Christian Myth of the struggle between opposing forces of Light and Darkness, between God and Satan, in the Cthulhu Mythos.
And again:

Basically, there are two "sets" of gods in the mythos: the Elder Gods, about whom not much is revealed, save that they are a stellar Race that occasionally comes to the rescue of man, and which correspond to the Christian "Light"; and the Ancient Ones, about which much is told, sometimes in great detail, who correspond to "Darkness". These latter are the Evil Gods who wish nothing but ill for the Race of Man, and who constantly strive to break into our world through a Gate or Door that leads from the Outside, In.
Those knowledgable of modern Lovecraft scholarship will recognize that this does not accurately describe Lovecraft's work, in which there are no Elder Gods, and no cosmic conflict between Good and Evil in any form either. The term "Ancient Ones", as well, only occurs in one story -- and there, it is made clear that they are amoral and indifferent to man rather than evil. It is in fact an accurate description of the Derleth Mythos rather than the Lovecraft Mythos. Considering that renaming the Good and Evil sides of the Mesopotamian deities "The Elder Gods" and "The Ancient Ones" is the major attempt at syncretising the two systems, it would appear the attempt ended in abject failure.

The treatment of individual deities is hardly any better, however. Cthulhu appears as KUTULU, a name which never appeared before this book. Simon derives it from KUTU, the city Kutha, and LU, man. The proper Sumerian form, however, would be LU-KUTU, if these words were compounded. In any case, the name Cthulhu is of non-human origin and thus not amenable to such interpretation.

Simon derives Azathoth from a compound AZAG-THOTH, where AZAG is indeed a Sumerian demon, and THOTH is the Coptic name for the Egyptian deity Tehuti. As to how this compound name could have come about, however, he gives us no clue. Nor does he tell us why it had never appeared in print before.

Other deities are less convincing. Shub-Niggurath appears as ISHNIGGARAB. Yog-Sothoth appears as IAK SAKKAK.

Even where Simon merely cites a Lovecraftian name, without attempting to give a corresponding form, he frequently misspells them. So Yog-Sothoth appears as Yog Sothot, Azathoth as Azatot, "the mad Arab" as "the Mad Arab", shoggoth as shuggoth, etc.

At least one deity of paramount importance in Lovecraft, Nyarlathotep, has nothing corresponding to him in the Simon Necronomicon, as is the case with various minor creations of Lovecraft's that one might expect to put in an appearance, such as Yig, Nug and Yeb, Ghatanothoa, or Rhan-Tegoth, whereas several of the most important Mesopotamian deities in the volume have no corresponding deity in Lovecraft. These include: MARDUK, TIAMAT, PAZUZU, ENKI, NANNA, and INANNA (ISHTAR). Likewise, the various alien races invented by Lovecraft have no place in Simon's Necronomicon, while a host of supernatural creatures from Mesopotamian cultures, with no answering form in Lovecraft, figure prominently.

Another questionable assertion that Simon makes is as follows:

Lovecraft's mythos deals with what are known as chthonic dieties [sic], that is, underworld gods and goddesses, much like the Leviathan of the Old Testament. The pronunciation of chthonic is 'katonic', which explains Lovecraft's famous Miskatonic River and Miskatonic University, not to mention the chief diety [sic] of his pantheon, Cthulhu, a sea monster who lies, "not dead, but dreaming" below the world; an Ancient One and supposed enemy of Mankind and the intelligent Race.
There is quite a number of problems with this statement:

The pronunciation of chthonic is 'thawnick'; the 'ch' is silent.
Sea monsters are not usually considered chthonic.
The name Miskatonic most likely derives from American Indian roots.
Cthulhu's name derives from an alien language predating humanity by aeons; it cannot derive from the word chthonic, though Lovecraft may have been influence in his coining of the name by that word. In any case, this assertion conflicts with Simon's proposed derivation of the word as KUTU + LU, used everywhere else in his Necronomicon.
Cthulhu is not the chief deity of Lovecraft's supposed pantheon, but is important due merely to his proximity.
Cthulhu is not a 'sea monster', but an extraterrestrial or extradimensional creature impeded by being trapped beneath the ocean.
Cthulhu is never referred to as an 'Ancient One', though he is associated with a group called the Great Old Ones.
Cthulhu is not an actual enemy of Mankind; men are merely in his way. This is like saying that a human is an enemy of Termitekind because he would exterminate those who infest his house.
What 'the intelligent Race' might refer to here is unclear; it would not seem to correspond to anything in Lovecraft.

Most readers seem to find the portion labelled "The Testimony of the Mad Arab" to work effectively as Lovecraftian fiction. Many claim that the volume works wonders in the area of magick, regardless of whether the factual claims made regarding its origins are fraudulent or not. This is fully consistent with modern theories of magick.

In addition to the inexpensive paperback edition, the Simon Necronomicon was also released in an expensive leatherbound edition of 666 copies, followed by another of 3,333 copies.

There is also a Simon Necronomicon Spellbook (originally titled The Necronomicon Report), which gives a more récipé-like approach to the section "The Book of Fifty Names". Another such volume, The Gates of the Necronomicon, was also announced for publication, but apparently never appeared. Avon has recently re-issued the Spellbook.

The Simon Necronomicon exists in pirated form on the Web:

The Simon Necronomicon (not currently up).
The Simon Necronomicon.
The Simon Necronomicon.
The Simon Necronomicon (Russia; dead).

Or for a text-only version presented by the Coroner:

The Simon Necronomicon (dead).
The Simon Necronomicon.
The Simon Necronomicon (Poland; text file).
The Simon Necronomicon (gopher text).

Those interested in its validity may also wish to see:

Comments on the Necronomicon
And:
The Necronomicon and Ancient Sumer: Debunking the Myth.

Various rumors have spread around concerning the true identity of "Simon". One of these states that he was Herman Slater, the proprietor of the Magickal Childe occult bookshop of New York, which is indeed mentioned prominently in the volume. Another, more likely rumor, has it that he was a magickian in need of cash, who has subsequently gained a great name for himself in the field of Chaos Magick. Less likely candidates rumored to have authored the Simon Necronomicon include L. Sprague De Camp, Colin Wilson, L. Ron Hubbard, Robert Anton Wilson, Timothy Leary, and Sandy Pearlman (the Lovecraft-influenced lyricist for the band Blue Öyster Cult).

Ok--that whole novel above just reiterated what we all know--Simon did an atrocious job trying to link up Lovecraft,Crowley and real Sumerian lore. The link exists Im sure--but not in his poor examples.

This one is the best--LOL:

Azathoth---AIWASS--Azag-Thoth.

Now u tell me how he came to that ridiculous conclusion. Azathoth, the Blind Idiot God of the Cthulu mythos, Azag-Thoth, the lord of Madness disillusion of mental processes and AIWASS--Crowley's Holy Guardian Angel---now how are ALL 3 linked up? They are not! Azathoth and Agag-Thoth may be linked up but AIWASS has no place in that argument at all! That is just one example of many. One wonders why Simon even put this section in his book--makes him look foolish if u ask me.

Trying to coordinate Lovecraft, Crowley and Sumeria is complex process that would (in my opinion) take up a number of volumes and a painstaking process of research. His links are about as solid as most of Zecharia Sitchin's links! (not very solid if u arent familiar w/ Sitchin's writtings--he likes to skill steps in logic to arrive at conclusion).

There is something of truth that flows through this tome though. There is something ancient and real inside those words and seals. Simon doesnt have the key either--Im sure we all can agree to that. any of us that have used this book and have acheived results will surely attest to that. And the same group can also attest to the inherit danger of the book as well. Akin to stupid people playing w/ a loaded gun drunk--if u r not experienced in magick the book WILL harm you. Now how could a fake/hoax book have those kind of effects? Because the book (or material inside the book) is not fake! It is very real and very potent I have found.

Now back to what I was trying to un-earth by this topic, did the OTO creeate this book out of a number of sources for themselves? Maybe they were in process and the book disappeared? This is what we need to find out--not if Lovecraft wrote it or if SImon copied Lovecraft or if Crowley's ghost wanked off in Simons Frosted Flakes and inspired him and blah blah blah.....

I got this feeling in my gut (I AM WELL AWARE OF THE LACK OF SCIENTIFIC WEIGHT "MY GUT " HOLDS!!) that the book was a piecing together of some kind. Simon just took the pieces when they were in semi-order and ran I suspect. Or he was the puppet for something bigger. Or, as many of u users of the book know--Simon was a piece of an intricate puzzle that is still being put together (by us as well--I say we are all in this deep as well) by inventive and creative magicians out there.

Ok--(takes a breathe)--til next time folks.....

Enochian,

Our Religion, the Worship of the Enki and Marduk has nothing to do with motherfucking HOWARD PHILLIPS LOVECRAFT.
I am tired of people using H.P.L as this ersatz method of discrediting what we believe. Just because lovecraft used modified names of sumerian, assyrian, chaldean etc.. demons doesn't mean that said pre-existing entities are fabrications. I suppose, using your logic on this, that since Lovecraft used the term New England in his fiction then New England must be a complete fabrication as well. I mean, Lovecraft did use that name in his work after all. Enough of this silliness.
I don't really give a shit if what we call the necronomicon is ancient or not. I don't give a shit if their was a mad arab. And i don't really give a shit what Simon thinks or who he is. I use that which is contained within what is called the Necronomicon to bring myself into contact with Primordial Gods.My Gods.
Enki is my Lord and Master and it is that book with the word "necronomicon' printed in white letters on it's black cover that allowed me to know His glory.
All are free to insult our religion and call it false. Just as all are free to be wrong.

I am quite tired of people who bring up Lovecraft when discussing Simon's Necronomicon. Believe me--Im a huge Lovecraaft fan--I love his FICTIONAL stories! Even if there is a glint of truth in them , in this particular theme we are discussing here--it bears no value!

Also Imperial Arts--if you would ever bother to use the Necronomicon u will find that a vast horizon of the universe opens up inside of u. The waves of cosmic water inside ripple and there is movement in the stagnant waters. I think u believe Simon's Necronomicon is a work of COMPLETE fiction w/ no relation to actual historical sources. Like I said--try it out--u will find it is no FAKE--it works.........

Lovecraft and related fiction (especially that of Lin Carter, who wrote his own "Necronomicon") have a huge place for this discussion, most notably in that the Simon book shares some elements but neglects others entirely. The MAGAN text does give some attention to the lost generations of man, the "gods" before arrival on Earth, and the general conditions of strife in the ancient past. We can make some parallels, with Kingu representing the place of Tsathoggua for example, but on other (most) issues there are huge differences. If it were simply called "Sumerian Magic," it would hardly earn any comparison to Lovecraft's mythic tome, and would likely flop in the eyes of a publisher.

I have "bothered" to use the Necronomicon's rituals, though not in several years. I saw a video linked here a while back ("conjuring the watcher") and can say that it was fairly pathetic on just about all counts when compared to the actual procedure described in the book. I also wonder how many of you fellows had the tenacity to maintain the month of celibacy required for the rite of entrance. I did both of these things as an experiment, taking my "gear" out in the middle of the night and doing things by the book. How else can you judge the worth of an occult text but to try it according to the instructions?

I didn't, and still don't, think the book is worthless. I would even recommend it to someone who wanted to practice within a non-Judaic magical system. If it were a work of fiction this might be an interesting surprise, but as it stands the entire catalogue of incantations comes straight from the tablets of state-sponsored magicians of the distant past. The old MAQLU texts do have a few gaps but overall the incantations are matched fairly well, and there is a liberal dose of Crowley's school tossed in to add structure. Instead of an HGA you call a watcher, and instead of initiations there are gates and spheres whose spirits become serviceable. This is all stock material in modern occultism, and it shouldn't really shock anyone that it works at all, especially if the best you get are some "internal goodies" and maybe a convenient coincidence.

I mearly cut and pasted a text is all. If you would read my prior posts i was planning a little trip to help find the truth for all of you. If thats so bad sue me or since this is fight club bite me.

Now if someone that really gives a shit about where the text is from "And yes i believe all of you and have read the stories about what the text has done for good and bad"
Will give me some good names and facts i will be on my little sojourn...I think i have found what i need really is Simon dead? I see he has another book expplaining the necronomicon text better does anyone hold a copy of it?

imperial,

If you consider that month of celibacy to be some benchmark of worthiness for service to Enki, then you may find we Priests far beyond such measure. We practice, in general, each month, 13 days of celibacy, 7 without meat and 72 to 96 hours without any food at all. And that is just for gate walking. We who are Priests of Enki have sunk razors into our flesh and spilled blood in Enki's name to earn the title Priest. Our resolve and conviction is absolute.
Would you die for the deities you accept?
Ask any blooded Priest of Enki that question and surely the answer is yes. We give him our souls, our mind and our flesh as he is Who created us.

And Enochian. Next time your going to perform such a courageous task, and bestow upon us meager Priests such a gift, do remember to bring with you a cross so we may nail you to it and announce you the martyr you are.

imperial,

If you consider that month of celibacy to be some benchmark of worthiness for service to Enki, then you may find we Priests far beyond such measure. We practice, in general, each month, 13 days of celibacy, 7 without meat and 72 to 96 hours without any food at all. And that is just for gate walking. We who are Priests of Enki have sunk razors into our flesh and spilled blood in Enki's name to earn the title Priest.

What I consider "worthy" is not in question, but the Necronomicon does prescribe a moon of celibacy (28 days) prior to the Entrance, including daily offerings to the god and goddess of your choice, and semi-regular calling of the watcher. It has been a while, but i don't remember anything about restrictions on your diet, or self-mutilation.

Perhaps you are drawing material from some other source as part of this priesthood thing (as opposed to merely inventing it or adopting it arbitrarily), but if so, what does it have to do with a discussion of the Necronomicon?

Greetings Acid,

You are totally correct as to mistranslation. Ashnook has found a few mistakes in the language translation.

Greetings Enochian,

I think it would be kinda difficult to hold a stolen manuscript up for public inspection.

I do agree that the Nec was hyped on Lovecraft when in my eye there is not much of a connection. A very clever marketing tactic.

The zoned ones are the planetary deities. Do tell if you happen across anything interesting in the astral.

Greetings Imperial Arts,

It is very true that the Nec is very comparable to other systems. I think perhaps all systems are comparable to other systems.

I am noting your contempt for individuals using the Nec. Are you saying that Nec. users are idiots incapable of causing anything magickal to happen up to par with your superior level?

You must be most impressive.

Imperial Arts,

It is not so crude a thing as self-mutilation. It is sacred blood letting.
And none of what i mentioned is from any other source/path, nor is it mentioned in the texts. It is something which is learned through singular devotion. I mention it only because you seem to fail to recognize the legitimacy of our faith. Faith is meaningless without devotion and conviction. We whom Enki has accepted as Priests follow this path in a way as no Ceremonialist. Too many people think they understand this path because they 'dabbled' with it. Dabbling is fine, but it doesn't bring the spirit of the path into you. And without that spirit, that spark of gnosis, this path cannot be understood. It is an all or nothing faith.
And what it has to do with this thread, is the argument over the authenticity of what we practice. Here on Sacred Magick as a whole it is our path which is made the shooting gallery for blind folks to fire their shots. If people aren't going to devote themselves completely to this Path, then all of their opinions and arguments concerning it are moot and nothing more than cheap provocation.

We are underground occultism.
We dont have seminars in expensive halls.
We dont have famous people groveling at our feet.
We dont have vast libraries of books to sift through to aid our path.
WE HAVE TO LEARN BY EXPERIENCE ALONE!
We dont gain knowledge by reading a million books!
We dont grow in wisdom by memorizing a conjuration or invocation but not ever doing it!
We dont call the spirits to us in fear!
We dont call them to us as slaves!
We dont call them to us as strangers!
We dont do our rituals just to be accepted by the high priest!

We do our magick because we feel it
We do our magick because it is a vital part of us
We do our magick because it is what we were meant to do
We do our magick because it flows though our veins
We do our rituals because it is our TRUE WILL to do so
We do our rituals because we know what our goal is
We do our rituals because we know who our MASTER is
We do our rituals because it moves us closer to our MASTER
WE DO OUR RITUALS BECAUSE WE WANT TO EVOLVE!!!

We can share experiences w/ one another--but the actual experience must be experienced for ones self--not by reading about it in a blog or a book!
Only through painstaking work and work can one understand what we are about. You can read the Necronomicon a million times and do some rituals a few times---but til ENKI accepts you as his, you will never understand what the magick inside that book is all about!

IA ZI DINGIR ENKI KANPA!
IA ZI DINGIR EA KANPA!
IA ZI DINGIR NUDIMMUD KANPA!
IA ZI DINGIR OANNES KANPA!

This post has been edited by Eabatu: Dec 27 2006, 11:23 PM

I am noting your contempt for individuals using the Nec. Are you saying that Nec. users are idiots incapable of causing anything magickal to happen up to par with your superior level?

From what post have you distilled this assessment? I have used the Necronomicon rituals myself, and in this very thread have recommended them to others, all the while remarking that they are clearly laid in a solid and time-tested framework of magical practice. Does this in some way translate as contempt to you?

I did mention a video of the watcher conjuration and called it "pathetic." I say this based on the following considerations:

1. The watcher is conjured at night, the video is done in the day.
2.The robe of calling the watcher is black, and the robe in the film is white.
3.The Agga Mass Ssaratu is new and clean with sigils in dark ink, the video has an old plant potter with white painted sigils.
4. A double-circle of flour is to be put on the ground and the Agga Mass Ssaratu between them, yet the video has it on a little table right next to the operator.
5.The sword of the watcher is to be placed in the earth, but in the video there is only a dagger and it is apparently not driven into the earth at all.

If Hollywood had produced the video, Necronomicon fans would probably bemoan its inconsistency, yet we are certain to hear excuses for the blatant disregard of the very ritual it proposes to demonstrate. Thus do I call it pathetic, which is a subjective term admittedly, but it is a fact that the Necronomicon's version differs in very significant ways.

It might also be said here that I am somewhat preturbed by the idea presented that Lovecraft is banned from our discussion of the Necronomicon, while we are asked to accept the idea that stabbing yourself in the name of Enki, or mild starvation, are perfectly acceptable and even to be expected. If the talk is merely free-form Sumerian magic, fine! but here we are discussing a book whose contents are under scrutiny, and it is warranted to note that these things are utterly absent from said text.

You might call this whole thread "cheap provocation," and that is a convenient way to ignore anything you don't like about it. I don't call your faith illegitimate, but the things you describe are certainly not in the Necronomicon and it is within reason to ask what made you state them as if it were standard practice. It is also within reason to wonder whether or not the whole thing was just done for a lark by some occultists interested in creating a magical system based loosely on ancient texts, using a popular sci-fi series as a marketing angle. None of this is to call you an idiot, but I would expect a reasonable and intelligent person (especially a priest) to have a thorough grasp over the subject and be able to discourse fluently concerning the intricacies of its origin, composition, and practice.

This post has been edited by Imperial Arts: Dec 28 2006, 12:53 AM

Couple of things I wanted to comment on the video.

1- Maybe it was done at daytime to show up on the video better rather than as normal practice. Or do you enjoy staring at blackness in your videos?

2 - The Agga Mass Ssaratu may not be clean and new because it may have been used more than once. It was probably clean at the start though.

3 - If you conjur a Bandar correctly, you shouldn´t need a double circle. It might not say it in the book, but you should learn this whilst walking the gates.

4 - The Dagger is probably the copper Dagger of Innanu, which is also detailed in the Necronomicon, if the Watcher has been called within 30 days.

In regards to the blood oath, I believe this is not the only order or religion to demand that. It certainly seems no stranger than having to drink the blood of a god to show loyalty.

Also, Simon himself has changed or adpoted many of the rituals in The Gates of the Necronomicon, I presume to show new techniques. Or would he also be laughed at by purists?

Greetings Imperial Arts,

This comment along with calling the video pathetic I took for contempt.

“I have "bothered" to use the Necronomicon's rituals.”

I think it would be hard to ban H.P. Lovecraft as the first time I heard about the Nec was through him. Who said he is banned? Hell he is dead that’s sorta Necro after all.

The purpose of fight club is to sling mud in peoples eye. Dn’t take it personal if I give you a black eye in here as I wn’t take it personal if you chip one of my teeth.

Its all in good fun bro.