Was Ashtaroth A Watcher? Options

Now here's a theory I was considering (another weird one). The watchers are known to have taught mankind all sorts of things, many of them bad (prostitution,sodomy, and bestiality were a few). Within this framework it would be consistent in viewing Ashtaroth as a demon who identifies himself as female (ie: he is homosexual, as were many of the watchers in the book of Enoch). It is my belief that the editors of the Key of Solomon and other Goetic texts knew full well who Ashtaroth claimed to be, but that they (rightly) placed him as male for the skilled magician to discern. Your thoughts?

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 25 2006, 07:08 PM

Greetings!
Before we begin the bloodletting...
r9999, I would like to have an idea of your background and/or sources for this topic. Did you lift these ideas from a book or a religous writing?

The watchers are known to have taught mankind all sorts of things, many of them bad (prostitution,sodomy, and bestiality were a few). Within this framework it would be consistent in viewing Ashtaroth as a demon who identifies himself as female (ie: he is homosexual, as were many of the watchers in the book of Enoch).

What makes you think Astaroth is a Watcher? The Watchers are listed and Astaroth is not of them...? Also, why does Astaroth being female, male, etc. mean that he/she/it is homosexual? Does Astaroth indulge in sexual congress? With whom? Why? (OK, why not?) I'm conversant with the texts you cited and they are of a profoundly JudeoChristian slant. I think that the Babylonians/Sumerians/Akkadians/Hittites viewed a goddess by the name of Ashtoreth/Astarte...I could be wrong. Is this where the 'female-to-male' slide began? The JudeoChristians are very patriarchal and their female dieties were either 'converted' or became the Virgin Mary. So...I am confused...Does the writings of the Goetia reflect the times and religon of the times? Yes. Does it mean that one of the major demons, Astaroth, was/is homosexual through the changing of genders? No. (But then again, Maybe, but for different reasons) Will discerning Magicians see through this 'blind'? I don't know, what is construed as discernment? And more importantly...WHO CARES? Help me understand.

This post has been edited by bym: Nov 25 2006, 09:04 PM

To me, Ashtaroth is/was and always will be a Demon(ess), and she is a "female" in all demonology and hierarchies. The information you seem to have attained seems to be of Mesopotamian origins, though I could be wrong. Ashtaroth is also said to be the Christianized name of a demon, so I would look into more sources on her.

You said that Ashtaroth was a helper of humans? Teacher of them? Well what I understand is that any Demon/Angel/Daemon can be a great helping guide to humans, and they can even be great companians for the spiritual warrior (those I know about).

Those who believe Ashtaroth to be a male, also believe that Astarte (the female), is different from Ashtaroth (the male).

In various demonology, the name is derived from the goddess Astarte with the ending distorted to closely resemble the Hebrew boshet, meaning "shame." Her original name "Astoreth" meant "womb" and she was associated with fertility.

Also note that It is thought that she and the goddess Anath were the same deity in Biblical times.

So in Demonology and Egyptian Mythology, as well as Greek, Astarte and Ashtaroth were the same Goddess/Demoness and she was a female, not male.

Also note that Egyptian and Greek Mythology have nothing to do with the Christian origins of the deities and their names.

Who?

To the Canaanites, she was "Astarte"
To the Sumerians, she was "Inanna"
To the Babylonians, she was "Ishtar"
To the Assyrians and Akkadians, she was "Ashtart/Ashtaroth/Asharah/Astareth"
To the Egyptians, she was "Isis/Ashet/Aset"
To the Phoenicians, she was "Tanit-Ashtart/Ashtaroth"
To the Greeks, she was "Athena"

hmmm... interesting, and do these all have the SAME background? Nope, not at all the same.

Many Theistic Satanists describe Ashtaroth as being female, and also daughter of Nanna and Ningal. She is known as a helper of humanity, and shares the same power as does Beezlebub (Baal/Bael).

Names can be decieving, do you see?

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Nov 25 2006, 09:37 PM

Greetings Deathstalker,

Nice post. I totally agree that the root lies in Inanna. However mind my deliberate misspelling Astaroth appeared to me as very male giant and holding a huge axe. Of the Goetic demons he was the kindest to me and so I hold him in high esteem. Also he seemed quite Heterosexual to me.

Astaroth and Ashtaroth are quite different if I am correct. Astaroth has as his root Angra-Mainyu, Ashtaroth....Istar. To be honest, Ashtaroth cannot be a watcher, simply because the watchers were very low level demons (the lowest) and he is a chief, probably even in the throne/dominions ranks. I do know that since the middle ages, this demon has been known as a male demon who loves to play the female. I find that interesting. Could it be that Istar/Inanna is a male deity impersonating itself as a female? That is disquieting to me. Why is it disquieting? Because it means I can't trust a single word these beings are saying. I must be critical and penetrating, treat them with respect and awe (they were after all worshiped as gods in ancient times) but not trust them whenever I have anything to do with them.

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 25 2006, 11:51 PM

Wikpedia

Astaroth (also Ashtaroth, Astarot, and Asteroth) is a Grand Duke of Hell; his main assistants are four demons called Aamon, Pruslas, Barbatos and Rashaverak. In art, in the Dictionnaire Infernal, Astaroth is depicted as a nude man with dragon-like wings, hands and feet, a second pair of feathered wings after the main, wearing a crown, holding a serpent in one hand, and riding a wolf or dog. According to Sebastian Michaelis he is a demon of the First Hierarchy, who seduces by means of laziness and vanity, and his adversary is St. Bartholomew, who can protect against him for he has resisted Astaroth's temptations. To others, he teaches mathematical sciences and handicrafts, can make men invisible and lead them to hidden treasures, and answers every question formulated to him.

According to S.Francis Barrett, Astaroth is the prince of accusers and inquisitors. According to some demonologists of the 16th century, August is the month during which this demon's attacks against humans are stronger. His name seems to come from the goddess ‘Ashtart/Astarte which was rendered in the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible as Astharthe (singular) and Astharoth (plural), that last form rendered in the King James Version of the Bible as Ashtaroth. It seems this plural form was taken either from the Latin or from some translation or other by those who did not know it was a plural form nor knew that it referred to a goddess, seeing it only as a name applied to some god other than God and therefore the name of a devil.

Can you give us some sources as to this demon cross dressing? I would like to consider myself pretty well versed with Astaroth yet he has never appeared to me with a dress on,

This post has been edited by smasher666: Nov 26 2006, 12:14 AM

Here's our man:

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/art...iew.asp?Post=99

Apparently I was confusing him with a quiet different demon:

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/art...iew.asp?Post=97


spirits are immaterial, above sex, but I believe they are essentially male in character (all of them) though they may claim otherwise.That is my belief, which of course will go under the so called Judaeo-christian slant (how else can you view these beings if I may ask by the way?). Interesting to note that according to the above description he claimed to receive an unjust punishment. Smash, you have invoked or evoked this being, can you tell me why?

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 26 2006, 12:53 AM

I called him several times to help me make money and to develop certain psychic skills mostly of a Vampiric nature but also to know the future. He was very nice to me and very helpful. Of course he is a demon so I was very hesitant to trust him and it seemed that perhaps him being so nice could be some sort of set up. After I had gained what I wanted I stopped calling him as I felt developing a friendship with a demon could be unhealthy.

Regardless Astartoth was very cool with me and I really like him. Wherever he is I wish him the best.

I called him several times to help me make money and to develop certain psychic skills mostly of a Vampiric nature but also to know the future. He was very nice to me and very helpful. Of course he is a demon so I was very hesitant to trust him and it seemed that perhaps him being so nice could be some sort of set up. After I had gained what I wanted I stopped calling him as I felt developing a friendship with a demon could be unhealthy.

Regardless Astartoth was very cool with me and I really like him. Wherever he is I wish him the best.

Interesting. Who was your worse summons? Curious about it, since many people say the big Kings and archdukes are usually very friendly. Not that I'd trust them in any way.

Quoting the Goetia's description of Astaroth:

(29.) ASTAROTH.—The Twenty-ninth Spirit is
Astaroth. He is a Mighty, Strong Duke, and appeareth
in the form of an hurtful Angel riding on an Infernal
Beast like a Dragon, and carrying in his right hand a
Viper. Thou must in no wise let him approach too near
unto thee, lest he do thee damage by his Noisome Breath.
Wherefore the Magician must hold the Magical Ring
near his face, and that will defend him. He giv-eth true
answers of things Past, Present, and to Come, and can
discover all Secrets. He will declare wittingly how the
Spirits fell, if desired, and the reason of his own fall.
He can make men wonderfully knowing in all Liberal
Sciences. He ruleth 40 Legions of Spirits. His Seal is
this, which wear thou as a Lamen before thee, or else
he will not appear nor yet obey thee, etc.

* And Smasher already posted his seal atop.

This could help too (from the Goetic perspective).

This post has been edited by DeathStalker: Nov 28 2006, 01:57 AM

So it says he will tell about the reason of the fall, as well as knowledge on God and secret things? Plus he's amicable. Seems like an interesting summon. I read in lots of places that he has a horrible breath/smell with him (anybody have a problem with that?), what sort of protection would you recommend (will it offend him to draw a circle and banish him later?)

Back again...

Now here's a theory I was considering (another weird one). The watchers are known to have taught mankind all sorts of things, many of them bad (prostitution,sodomy, and bestiality were a few). Within this framework it would be consistent in viewing Ashtaroth as a demon who identifies himself as female (ie: he is homosexual, as were many of the watchers in the book of Enoch). It is my belief that the editors of the Key of Solomon and other Goetic texts knew full well who Ashtaroth claimed to be, but that they (rightly) placed him as male for the skilled magician to discern. Your thoughts?

This thread was not originally how to summon Astaroth but rather whether or not the authors of the Goetic texts knew who they were dealing with...and alot of hoohah about him being a 'Watcher' and what his gender really is. I do know that he is not of the Grigori although his 'angelic' origins are not in dispute. Asmodeus is positively a different entity, as is Astarte/Ashtoreth. Despite my protestations over the past year it appears that the angellic version of Astaroth can be made somewhat safely without the circle et al. Being a fundamental Solomonic magician I shudder to think what ANY kind of evocation will do to an unschooled/untrained mind. I apologize for this assumption...one never makes any progress by sitting on their ass and doing nothing. And, btw, the use of a triangle is not shaming or insulting. Geometry is directly applicable to dimensional transfer and the triangle is used to facilitate Manifestation in a more corporeal form (ie 3D in this place). Another idea for a topic of discussion would be why does one wish to give a corporeal form to entities that may not have corporeal forms to begin with?

Another bit of info...the Watchers were enamoured of the Daughters of Adam and mated with them. This does not imply homosexual behavior (IMHO, LOL! Do spirits/entities other than terrestrials exhibit such tendencies? Another topic...)
If you do decide on evoking Astaroth be careful and give him the deference he is due although do not exhibit subsidiary or fawning attitudes...they are insulting not to mention demeaning! Good luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/egypt1.gif)

This post has been edited by bym: Nov 28 2006, 08:57 PM

I would never do anything without some form of protection, just asking if the circle proper is offensive to them. Also, interesting that you explained to me the exact purpose of the triangle, now it makes sense. One thing that I wonder though- fairly simple forms evoke fairly simple and beneficent entities. What make the triangle different technically speaking? Why does it attract devils and the circle (supposedly) afford protection? I also disagree on spirits not being capable of sexual deviancy. Just read Paul's letter to the Corinthians (where he compares homosexuality to the watchers sin of taking women). There's even an archaic verse in that same letter who's meaning has become lost to the public after all these centuries, but seems to have made perfect sense to his audience (something on men treating women properly and assert authority on them or else the holy angels will feel "tempted", something on those lines, more of an insinuation than an actual command, try to find it).

I also disagree on spirits not being capable of sexual deviancy. Just read Paul's letter to the Corinthians (where he compares homosexuality to the watchers sin of taking women).

I don't recall saying that they (spiritual entities) were incapable of sexual deviancy (deviant as compared to what...or who?). Methinks Paul doth protest abit too much concerning (his) homosexuality.

One thing that I wonder though- fairly simple forms evoke fairly simple and beneficent entities. What make the triangle different technically speaking? Why does it attract devils and the circle (supposedly) afford protection?

I don't understand/follow your logic - "fairly simple forms evoke fairly simple and beneficent entities"...??? The Triangle doesn't attract 'devils'... A magician uses the Triangle to manifest the entity in question. Not every entity will agree to be concentrated within the Triangle...for a variety of reasons. The first being that they may not have a corporeal form and this is like 'chaining' them to one local. Look upon it like I was forcing you to stand on a space 4" square. Now answer questions that you have little interest in, whilst being told off and complained at because of your appearance...you get the drift.
The circle represents the infinite, no beginning nor end. It keeps things either in or out. The idea that a circle is 'insulting' to entities is a fallacy. It is another Newage scricture trying to impose a 'politically correct' stance in entity ethics. Humbug.
Well enough pontificating! Goodnight! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blablabla.gif)

Bym, you are truly a genius! Your not into any biblical doctrine but you unlocked the secret onto why the circle protects you against devils. It is alpha and Omega, beginning and the end. It is a symbol for....GOD! Now it makes sense. I always knew the six pointed star was a luciferic symbol (the marriage of heaven and hell, Satan ruling over human beings in the abyss and over God and the holy angels in heaven- what a twisted horrible vision) and thus it attracted devils whether in the pentagram or magen david form, but the exact meaning of the circle eluded me. I always wondered onto why devils never penetrated it but would go for you outside it. Now it is clear. Oh Bym, your also onto something there on devils not wanting to assume corporeal form. According to the scriptures the fallen angels lost their original forms (for the most part. Thus if Beelzebub's conspiracy against the almighty was monstrous, he will appear in a monstrous form- which he does according to all grimoires), and the demons (ie: the giant offpsring of the watchers along with the Shedim, hairy demons) have no form whatsoever since they were all wiped out in the flood and only a small proportion remain to tempt human beings. Either way, I'm not attempting anything for the moment Bym, all Ive seen on devils is them acting like brute beasts (as opposed to wise spirits) trying to get us human beings for their own twisted purposes, either through bribery, illusion of power, setups of all sorts,etc.

Dude, are you serious? I am rather new to this forum and I do not wish to get on anyones bad side, but some of the statements in this post are outlandish. Homosexual watchers??? The hexagram as a symbol for Lucifer???? What is the point to all this? Honestly, r9999, if you are interested in this I suggest you begin doing some research with the same fervor and dedication with which you have read the Bible. Your interpretation of the circle is good- alpha-omega, beginning and end ...yes it is all there as a symbolic representation of the order and cycles of the universe. The hexagram (i.e. 6-pointed star) is a symbol of the macrocosm and is the reconciliation of dualities(i.e. water and fire ). Kabbalist have many more interpretation for this symbol including God's 6 days of creation with the center representing the 7th day of rest. For a more Christianized explanation see Eliphas Levi's Transcendental Magic (formerly Dogma et Rituel..)


Here is a little exercise that might help understanding the sacred geometry of the hexagram.

1. with a compass draw a circle
2. At any point along the circumference of the circle put the point of the compass and draw a second circle (you should have something that resembles a ven diagram)
3. Use the either point where the circumference of the second circle intersects the first circle as the center of a third circle
4. Continue producing circles in a radiating pattern ... you will notice that you can only create 6 circles with the seventh being the central circle. (hmm sounds familiar)
5. You will also notice that this geometric mandala produces a six pointed lotus-like flower in its center. Connect the points of the flower and what do you get??? a hexagram , the six pointed star...

I'm sure you will find the metaphor of this geometric mandala compelling... there is an undeniable elegance present in the first polygon produced solely from circles. You may, like the Kabbalists, draw an association to the beginning of Genesis . Sounds silly, but try it. Then look around and see how many other cultures incorporate variations of this six-pointed geometric figure in their lexicon of sacred symbols... I've said too much.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Nov 29 2006, 06:20 PM

Well, scriptures do say many of the watchers were homosexual (in fact they taught human beings homosexuality, also many other things, some relatively benign- makeup for women, agricultural basics,etc. and some malign- how to make weapons for war,etc.) I was considering that Ashtaroth might have some relationship with them because he is clearly homosexual (ie: appears as a Godess when he is male, even the Key of Solomon says so) but that is irrelevant. Devils love deceit so it is in their nature to pretend to be things they are not. The hexagram is a symbol of reconciliation indeed- of the upper realm (upper triangle) with the lower (lower triangle) interposed and bound by the lines of Lucifer, master of heaven and hell ( why sometimes you put a little "G' in the middle of the hexagram- to emphasize he is the great architect). There are many other interpretations- of it being the union of the microcosm of man and macrocosm of the divine universe, of the union of feminine and masculine opposites,etc. but that is my personal favorite, and since the Hexagram was used for pagan Gods now in the Goetia (a book for summoning devils) I can confidently say my interpretation is right.

Look at this:

http://www.coranix.com/102/baphomet.jpg

look at the hands.

also at the breasts (my other interpretation is there)
also at the dark moon and the light one (light and darkness, heaven and Hell).

of course this is Levi, but Baphomet has been found in places carved up throughout the middle ages.

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 29 2006, 07:28 PM

Well, scriptures do say many of the watchers were homosexual (in fact they taught human beings homosexuality, also many other things, some relatively benign- makeup for women, agricultural basics,etc. and some malign- how to make weapons for war,etc.) I was considering that Ashtaroth might have some relationship with them because he is clearly homosexual (ie: appears as a Godess when he is male, even the Key of Solomon says so) but that is irrelevant. Devils love deceit so it is in their nature to pretend to be things they are not. The hexagram is a symbol of reconciliation indeed- of the upper realm (upper triangle) with the lower (lower triangle) interposed and bound by the lines of Lucifer, master of heaven and hell ( why sometimes you put a little "G' in the middle of the hexagram- to emphasize he is the great architect). There are many other interpretations- of it being the union of the microcosm of man and macrocosm of the divine universe, of the union of feminine and masculine opposites,etc. but that is my personal favorite, and since the Hexagram was used for pagan Gods now in the Goetia (a book for summoning devils) I can confidently say my interpretation is right.

Look at this:

http://www.coranix.com/102/baphomet.jpg

look at the hands.

also at the breasts (my other interpretation is there)

That is a drawing of Baphomet made by Eliphas Levi... it is something like a symbol as it is not meant to represent any real entity but rather a concept of initiation and illumination. This has become the standard "Hollywood" portrayal of the Devil but really has nothing to do with evil. Let me explain a few things:

1. The breast do not indicate homosexuality, but rather is and indicator of androgyny. This has nothing to do with sexual preferences but rather is symbolic of both male and female potencies.

2. The arm positions are replicating the shape of the hebrew letter Aleph. THis is the first letter of the hebrew alphabet and is symbolic of breath (since it is aspirated) and associated with Logos (the word).

3. The position of the fingers are indicators of the esoteric path (i.e. illumination through hidden knowledge). This is furthered by the torch atop his head.

4. Your probably wondering about the Goat head... what can be more Satanic right? Well actually if we look at the history of the goat we find some very interesting things. A) the goat is and has always been symbolic of fertility, vitality, and ceaseless energy B) The goats association with sin likely comes from the scapegoat, which was an animal driven off by the Israelites on the day of atonement. The idea is that the sins of the community were transfered onto this animal and by banishing or slaughtering it they expunged their own sins. Today the term "scapegoat" refers to one who is blamed for misfortunes, often as a way of distracting attention from the real causes (def. from wikipedia). In many ways was Christ not the scapegoat of mankind...through his death do we not atone for our sins????

5. The pole with the intertwined serpents is called the cadeceus. This is also a hermetic symbol of knowledge and of both the left hand and right hand paths...often time this is known as the wand of Hermes. It represents spiritual awakening, in many ways akin to the Kundalini serpents of Hindu mysticism.A similar symbol has been adopted by medical professionals (go to your nearest hospital and look around). There is also a biblical parallel to when Moses nailed a serpent to his staff to cure Israel of illness.

6. Finally, I do not see a hexagram anywhere in the image...

I'm not trying to be an A$$ hole, but I just want to point out that sometimes by interpreting light through a pre-filtered lens we becomes afraid of that which is dark because it is not what we are accustomed to.


One more thing, a correction on my post above regarding the hexagram. The hexagram is not really the unification of water-fire but rather water-fire before they were separated (sort of archetypal elements). In fact Kabbalist see this more as the waters of the heaven and the waters of earth which were separated by God to create this world.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Nov 29 2006, 08:04 PM

r9999,
Thanks for the accolades but I fear they are misplaced. It appears that you are laboring under a number of suppositions and ideals presented by certain Christian teachings. The Church has long disparaged Magic and those who used it (and not only Magic but those of the Sciences, etc.) Why do you think that within the Goetia and any number of magic texts demons and angels would teach you various forms of knowledge and physical science? People are curious...according to 'Scripture' the reason for Adam and Eves expulsion from Eden was for partaking of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge (sorry...whole other topic that...*grin*). Did the Watchers teach homosexuality to other species as well? Hmmm........Paul had his hangups, homosexuality was one of them, unfortunately.
Sacred geometry places a part in the cornerstone of Magic. The Circle not only symbolizes infinity (or God, to some) but also the Divine Feminine, whereas the Line represents the Divine Masculine (for obvious reasons...it'll poke your eye out! LOL!) The Triangle represents Manifestation, the combination of male, female and neuter, in 'scripture' - the Trinity, the Square represents the 4 Elements, etc., the Pentagram represents the Microcosm (the 4 elements plus Spirit) or Man, the Hexagram denotes the Macrocosm (the Microcosm plus Infinity) etc., the Heptagram are the notes of the music of the Spheres and hence the Planets...This is a very truncated list...whole books are written about it. (Now that we have an expanded view of our Solar System will we see a reordering/revamping of Planetary Magic?)
Please do yourself a favor and try to stand along side your faith and its teachings whilst perusing Magic. Stretching ones spirituality never hurt...it's a very personal experience which should be with yourself and whatever spiritual ideal you subscribe to. Common sense should fill in the gaps. I promise to not proselytize to/at you, will you do the same for me? Happy journey to you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

r9999,
Thanks for the accolades but I fear they are misplaced. It appears that you are laboring under a number of suppositions and ideals presented by certain Christian teachings. The Church has long disparaged Magic and those who used it (and not only Magic but those of the Sciences, etc.) Why do you think that within the Goetia and any number of magic texts demons and angels would teach you various forms of knowledge and physical science? People are curious...according to 'Scripture' the reason for Adam and Eves expulsion from Eden was for partaking of the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge (sorry...whole other topic that...*grin*). Did the Watchers teach homosexuality to other species as well? Hmmm........Paul had his hangups, homosexuality was one of them, unfortunately.
Sacred geometry places a part in the cornerstone of Magic. The Circle not only symbolizes infinity (or God, to some) but also the Divine Feminine, whereas the Line represents the Divine Masculine (for obvious reasons...it'll poke your eye out! LOL!) The Triangle represents Manifestation, the combination of male, female and neuter, in 'scripture' - the Trinity, the Square represents the 4 Elements, etc., the Pentagram represents the Microcosm (the 4 elements plus Spirit) or Man, the Hexagram denotes the Macrocosm (the Microcosm plus Infinity) etc., the Heptagram are the notes of the music of the Spheres and hence the Planets...This is a very truncated list...whole books are written about it. (Now that we have an expanded view of our Solar System will we see a reordering/revamping of Planetary Magic?)
Please do yourself a favor and try to stand along side your faith and its teachings whilst perusing Magic. Stretching ones spirituality never hurt...it's a very personal experience which should be with yourself and whatever spiritual ideal you subscribe to. Common sense should fill in the gaps. I promise to not proselytize to/at you, will you do the same for me? Happy journey to you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

First to Faustopheles (love that name, lol! Martin Luther wanted Faust hanging from a pole, he was not a good man, Faust was, but I am reading things he wrote though so I can't be a judge here). Well, for starters, the goat head is a Satanic symbol if there ever was one. It's probably the most blasphemous thing the Satanists ever came up with. Here's what it means- Jesus Christ was the lamb of God, therefore a good way to diss and insult him is to call him a goat (ie: improper sacrifice). You are insulting the holy of holies by calling him unclean. In old days if you touched the ark of the covenant after doing something unclean....ZAAAPPP! That's how satanic that goat head is. Also, there's no way out of that depiction of baphomet pointing to light and dark, heaven and hell, etc.- that's what I'm talking about, the Luciferians want their angel who thinks he's god but is nothing but a punk traitor (forgive me if I insulted anyone with that here, my bone is against the deceiver serpent Satan ahem) as ruler of all planes, heaven and hell, with the creator standing on the sides powerless. Yes, the breasts do denote androgyny, that was my point, it all fits with what I'm saying. Bym, you are right. This knowledge depends on how you approach it, I'm approaching it from my perspective which is highly critical, but there are many others. Personally Bym, I am attempting to purge my understanding of perspectives which seem to miss the point and go against what I know is true.

R9999,

I feel as if this thread has gone terribly astray from Astaroth to Baphomet , goats, and our own personal philosophies. BYM is right these threads should not be made to preach individual believes and I will make my peace with you. We each follow the path that is given to us and I urge you to continue along your own. If you find that occult practice and magic make you a better Christian than God bless you.

One thing; however, I must point out as a Religious scholar. Goats are mentioned in the bible 141 times... not a single time is a goat called an unclean animal (that honor is mainly reserved for pigs). Below are some passages that you may look up yourself drawing from both the Old and New Testament. You may find the passage in Hebrews particular relevant to our discussion as the blood of Christ (i.e. the eucharist) is indicated as a substitute to the blood of goats and bulls to purify the unclean.

Exodus

{26:7} And thou shalt make curtains [of] goats’ [hair] to
be a covering upon the tabernacle: eleven curtains shalt thou
make. {26:8}

Leviticus

{1:10} And if his offering [be] of the flocks, [namely,] of
the sheep, or of the goats, for a burnt sacrifice; he shall
bring it a male without blemish. {1:11}

{16:8} And Aaron shall cast
lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other
lot for the scapegoat. {16:9} And Aaron shall bring the goat
upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him [for] a sin
offering. {16:10} But the goat, on which the lot fell to be
the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to
make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a
scapegoat into the wilderness. {16:11}

Numbers

{28:29} A several tenth deal unto one lamb, throughout the seven lambs;
{28:30} [And] one kid of the goats, to make an atonement
for you. {28:31} Ye shall offer [them] beside the continual
burnt offering, and his meat offering, (they shall be unto
you without blemish) and their drink offerings.

Hebrews

(9:11)But Christ beingcome an high priest of good things to come, by a greater
and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to
say, not of this building; {9:12} Neither by the blood of
goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once
into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for
us. ]{9:13} For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the
ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the
purifying of the flesh: {9:14} How much more shall the
blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered
himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from
dead works to serve the living God? {9:15}

Hi Faust, I have nothing to make peace about here because I know everybody on this thread is a good individual and nobody here is suddenly going to sneak somewhere in the middle of the night and slit a child's throat for Beelzebub or some other insulation often given onto people who choose to follow ceremonial magic. In fact, I'm here to see if I can absorb some knowledge from the wise "elders" of the art here- Bym, Smash666, Suxur-Mash596 and others I enjoy conversations with. Faust, I do need to correct you on one thing though. The goat was never once called unclean (unlike crayfish,pigs,rabbits and other animals who were so for purposes too complicated for this single thread) and you are right on that. However, the symbolism is still there- a black goat over a white lamb, impure/improper versus holy and proper. You also forgot something important.......


TWO goats were offered- one for Azazel and one for YHVH. This is symbolic. The satanist is saying their goat is the right one, that their man (Azazel) is the true lord, as opposed to Jesus (the good goat for YHVH).

Azazel is even called the king of the goat demons:
http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/art...ew.asp?Post=100

anyway, I'm tired of talking about goats. I want to ask a question to Bym- the circle is most effective if it symmetrical and perfect no? I'm asking to see if my interpretation of it's hidden meaning is correct. If it is I'll try building a super circle just for you guys (I'll use a system of numerology similar to that used for the temple and other buildings of the great king Solomon, the intention will be to draw and concentrate the qualities of God into a protection accessible to those dabbling in the occult. My intention. It needs to be something pure from evil demonic interferences) . You have experience in this matter and thus I want to see if I can learn something important and contribute to your own knowledge and protection.

This post has been edited by r9999: Nov 30 2006, 07:51 PM

Its easy any "bottom dweller is considered unclean". And pigs well hey you all can figure that one out they would eat anything. The goat is a LATER symbol that was drawn in this century(or last ) by a masonic occultist thats where it comes from. And its portrayed as a man with goats head.

I called him several times to help me make money and to develop certain psychic skills mostly of a Vampiric nature but also to know the future. He was very nice to me and very helpful. Of course he is a demon so I was very hesitant to trust him and it seemed that perhaps him being so nice could be some sort of set up. After I had gained what I wanted I stopped calling him as I felt developing a friendship with a demon could be unhealthy.

Regardless Astartoth was very cool with me and I really like him. Wherever he is I wish him the best.

Smart man.

I read in lots of places that he has a horrible breath/smell with him (anybody have a problem with that?), what sort of protection would you recommend (will it offend him to draw a circle and banish him later?)

When working with spirits who produce a foul smell, many of the texts suggests wearing a silver ring with the name "Tetragrammaton" inscribed upon it.

Can you give us some sources as to this demon cross dressing? I would like to consider myself pretty well versed with Astaroth yet he has never appeared to me with a dress on,

I don’t know about cross dressing, but I think some confusion here with Astaroth is regarding the etymology of the name (as outlined in DeathStalker’s post). There is an organization in California called the O.T.A. (Order of the Temple of Astarte) that uses the Goetic sigil of Astaroth to evoke Astarte . They claim that with the advent of the monotheistic YHVH, the Hebrews perverted the image of the goddess into a “fowl smelling demon” and she was bound in this form into Solomon’s brass vessel.

This post has been edited by Faustopheles: Dec 8 2006, 03:55 AM

When working with spirits who produce a foul smell, many of the texts suggests wearing a silver ring with the name "Tetragrammaton" inscribed upon it.

Yes the series of circles with letters around them? From the Greater Key . I made this on parchment and it seemed to help. I did not hold it up to my nose but it seemed to work just fine from my pocket !

This post has been edited by smasher666: Dec 8 2006, 11:04 PM