The Worlds Oldest Profession..., What do you think? Options

Ok this thread has the potential to ignite a forrest fire so, aside from personal opinions, lets try to keep our tongues behind our teeth if somebody says something that seems sexist or just sounds bad. The purpose of this thread is to find out what viewers think about prostitution, which includes both males and females.

This topic actually came to me, in of all places, getting plastered at a bar. A few buddies and I got to talking about sexist laws (who knows how it got started, probably the 3rd shot of whiskey after the second pitcher of beer).

Our *general* concensous was that there are laws that are sexist.

But being ever myself I had to point out conflicting views on, of course, one of the big issues - abortion - now the reason I brought abortion up in this thread isn't to discuss abortion. The reason is that one of the big reasons some women are pro choice is because they believe they should have the right to do with their body as they will and that the government has no right to dictate what women can do to their bodies.

So this idea of having the right to choose what one does with their body brought up the topic of prostitution, aka the world's oldest profession.

Any takers?

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 5 2006, 05:17 PM

I'll take it.

I am a full supporter of prostitution. For one thing, in countries where it is legalized, it's often regulated, taxed, and comes with vrious health benefits which curb one of the major drawbacks to prostitution, which is the spread of STDs. If it were handled better, not only could our country benefit from the extra tax money, but STDs wouldn't be as major an issue amongst prostitutes/escorts/etc.

Media attention on prostitution is specifically focused on women as prostitutes. No one seems to really care if a man sells his body - after all, he's a man, right, he's lucky to be getting paid to have sex! If a woman does it, however, she's selling herself to the highest bidder, somehow having no other choice in the matter, whereas a man, naturally, made the choice out of free will - after all what guy wouldn't want to get paid to get laid?

Seriously, though, so many countries have sticks so far up their a$$es that they can't see the forest for the trees. And it's true about the pro-choice matter. i know lots of women who are pro-choice (men too, although our opinion doesn't seem to count in such matters, and probably with good reason) who also think prostitution is an ugly thing that takes advantage of women around the world (they never mention male prostitutes). As it happens i know a few female 'escorts' as well, and you know what? Not only do they make more money than most high paid executive Men and Women sometimes as much as a six figure annual net, but they also love their jobs. They aren't victimized, they are highly prized individuals who get paid a lot of money.

The entire prostitution issue is totally biased against women. Male prostitution barely registers on the radar - I also know a few male escorts in NYC who make usually a little less than a high paid female escort.

It is the Oldest profession in the world and seems to me to be a natural part of our society that none the less is repressed, usually by the conservative element of society, and in my opinion, out of unreasonable fear. Christian nations don't want the wrath of god to rain down on them, other similarly monotheistic nations usually seem to put the emphasis on morality for morality's sake - and these are normally cultures that exhibit a great deal of unhealthy sexual repression anyway.

The Legalization of prostitution will, in my admittedly extreme opinion, be one of the stepping stones towards a more enlightened world society.

And after all, if pornography is legal, then really, honestly, is prostitution so far off?

I think, on afterthought, that one aspect of the issue is also a matter of income control. I know some people who make hella good money 'selling their bodies'. Hell, my clients come to me because of my body, and i'm just an exotic masseur - I rank myself on par with an escort, just a different category. But, you don't have to go to college for it, don't have to give the government anything to do it, basically their cut out of the deal all together, and while I might be biased against government in general, I think it's on the agenda not to let individuals achieve too much security without letting them in on the take.

peace

Everyone loves sex and why outlaw it? Hypocrisy and religious stupidity.
Prostitution is a huge extremely profitable business and if it's taxed, regulated and localized professionally it would be a a good source of income for many. The wifes and girlfriends just gotta learn how to improve their skills to prevent their free thinking hubbies and bf's from visiting the brothels for some professional massage services.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/922.gif)

Anymore I think the reason prostitution remains illegal is because of the possibility of spreading stds. I don't think this problem has to be such a big issue. I think prostitution should be legalized and regulated. Make brothels require their customers and their employees proove that they are clean and require regular testing. Maybe require the use of condoms, or vaginal sleeves (though I'd much rather bang without any kind of pee pee noose).

I don't think its fair that any democratic society impose moral laws on any denomination of the people. Minority rights should be respected and if one wants to be a prostitute I think that should legal, so long as they follow the regulations. Beside legalizing prostitution makes all those Johns and Janes who enjoy the services legal as well and the prostitutes themselves are no longer crimminals either.

The only reason I think prostitution is banned through out the greater part of the US is because of the "demonizing" the media has played out against prostitutes and many have moral hang up about the practice. I personally see no reason why it should not be made legal.

I know people who work and are born prostitutes. Everything in their constitution and make up supports them being "sex workers". But these people are all too few, and many prostitutes destroy themselves spiritually by doing it.

I think that while prostitution in itslef, isnt genderist, many of its biggest profiteers are (brothel owners and managers). I also think that prostitution allows sexism to be supported within the selves of many dubious characters.

But if prostitution were removed from this society, and nothing else changed, then we would have a lot of dangerous arseholes out there not getting the release they require. So prostitution should most definitely be legal. Beyond this i am a great beleiver in personal choice, and i think despite the fact that prostitution reduces sex crimes, even if it didnt, it think people should be able to profit from sex if it is a mutual transaction. People have the right to decide for themselves what is and isnt ok for their bodies to do.

I do think a lot of media attention is sexist against men in this regard, but i think that this nothing compared to the unfair attention that is paid to female prostitutes by society in general. The taboos of everyday conversation and belief for example. This is only just starting to balance out, it wasnt long ago that a man who saw a prostitute, despit the fact he was married, was a bastard who could be forgiven. But the prostitute was despite the fact that she was not in any relationship, and was merely conducting a business, a nasty harlot whore who should burn in hell. Despite what the movies tell you, most married men who see prostitutes, don tell the prostitutes there married. Most play the lonely guy card, as opposed to the mean wife card (most wives arent mean enough to see a prostitute).

Prostitutes have been known to be employed in a healthy way by couples to save sex lives, and in turn marriages.

The effects on individuals can be, and probably are more often than not damaging, though they can also be helpfull and healing, or at least prevent worse things from occuring. Either way, prostitution should not be illegal, women and men should be able to chose who and on what terms they share their bodies with each other, and it is up to us as individuals to act in accordance with well being of our souls in mind, it is not for anyone else to do so.

I know people who work and are born prostitutes. Everything in their constitution and make up supports them being "sex workers". But these people are all too few, and many prostitutes destroy themselves spiritually by doing it.

I think that while prostitution in itslef, isnt genderist, many of its biggest profiteers are (brothel owners and managers). I also think that prostitution allows sexism to be supported within the selves of many dubious characters.

Call me an optimist, but I think that legalization of prostitution would probably fix these issues as well. For one thing, it becomes, in time, a standard profession that people are known to have on occaision - like porno jobs now, or some of the fringier type 'alternative therapies' (few better stress relievers than expert sex!)

Thing is, if it were a legal profession, then 'managers' and brothel owners would be held to federal regulations as well. Your employer, if you had one, would have to respect you, and clients who act up, etc., can have legal action taken against them. One of the biggest problems with prostitution - for men as well but especially for women - is that if something goes wrong, there's nothing you can do, really, without exposing yourself to even more chaos than before. If a john hits you, for instance, what are you going to do - go to the police and tell them that the man you were selling sex to illegally, hit you when you wouldn't go where he wanted you to go?

Any sort of illegal profiting attracts bad people as much as good people. Some good people do illegal things because it's a victimless crime and we all have to make a living. Bad people do illegal things because if you f*** people over, what are they going to do about it? You can brutalize your way to the top when a 'business' is illegal, no matter what it is - if it's legal, though, there are checks and balances and consequences for not conducting yourself ethically.

One note towards the possible reasons for keeping it illegal, from the state perspective - at least in our conservative christian state as it is - is that the main clientele of most sex professionals, are married men. Single men don't need to pay anyone to keep it quiet, which is partly what you're getting with a sex worker. If it was legal, of course, there would probably be a sort of confidentiality between you and your sex worker, given that it puts the professional in a position of power over individuals who would rather it not be known that they frequent a prostitute.

Of course, that aspect is also a matter of local culture and custom. If it were normal, it might get to the point where everyone knows about prostitutes, and they occupy their own place in society and local culture. Heck, people might have family sex workers, and father's might initiate their sons into manhood by means of a prostitute. Well, maybe not that far, but if it were a normal thing, I think our society would become more mature about sex in general.

That's what I think about that.

peace

Here are some links on the subject that might interest readers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

http://www.answers.com/topic/prostitution-in-nevada --this one is the same article but it has some different links

http://groups.wfu.edu/prelaw/vegas/princess.html --a link about a legal case on the constitutionallity of prostitution

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-244.html#NRS244Sec345 --Nevada revised statutes on prostitution

http://www.cdc.gov/std/ --just a general guide for major STDs.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchstp/od/stateprofiles/usmap.htm --this a link from the CDC that gives a profile of STD rates state by state. Each profile is a pdf. There are 3 states that do not have profiles, including California.

http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html --discusses, in detail, the risks of illegal prostitution and the benefits of legalizing it and the affects prohibition.

http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhvhealt.htm --another articile that focuses on women and prostitution.

http://www.cdc.gov/std/stats/tables/table24.htm --table that ranks outbreaks of HIV in the States according to their population and number of out breaks.

Actually this topic is what I'm using for my final, an arguement essay, in my English comp class. Like other topics (vegaterianism, legalizing drugs) I brought it up to try and stir up ideas to research and challange.

This post has been edited by Acid09: Dec 8 2006, 04:20 PM

Greetings,

Call me a pessimist but I would rather stick my wiener in a blender than stick it in a hooker.

After I become global dictator I plan on staging public floggings of convicted hookers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif) For convicted whoremongers we can let thier wives do the flogging. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif)

Just kidding. I do not really care who does what, when, where, how or why. Hookers do give me the creeps though. I think it is the std fear factor.

Such wonderful gifts which keep right on giving. And then they give a little bit more. The gift can keep right on giving long after your death. Now thats a hell of a Christmas present.

I just can not see paying for something that you get at home for free. Anyways if you pay for something that cost nothing can you really be getting your moneys worth?

Just think about all the fellows out there who have sores all over thier soldiers. That has seriously gotta suck! My reccomended solution. Get a girlfriend. Or download porn! Lol.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/00000047.gif)

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Dec 11 2006, 08:13 PM

Call me a pessimist but I would rather stick my wiener in a blender than stick it in a hooker.

So if I'd rather stick my wiener in a hooker rather than a blender does that make me an optimist? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I do not really care who does what, when, where, how or why. Hookers do give me the creeps though. I think it is the std fear factor.

Well that and the hooker might be a psycho nympho who might try to rob you or kill you or a *part* of you. And of course there's also the possibility the hooker is actually a very afeminate man. Who likes to gamble? Not me and certainly not with cum buckets (who are probably just as loose as a buckets).

Seriously though I think if we make state regulations and delagate authority to individual counties people can find a much safer sexual outlets in far more controled environments. Besides we've been selling sex through marketing ads, personals, internet etc etc. So why is it illegal to market sex itself?

I just can not see paying for something that you get at home for free. Anyways if you pay for something that cost nothing can you really be getting your moneys worth?

Some people might have a fetish that they can't satisfy at home. Thats where whores come in. Sure there is free sex and if you can get yourself into a sex club you can often find it for free and its safe too!... hey I just got an idea about a business venture... Anyways not everybody is so lucky and hookers are not the only source of stds.

Just think about all the fellows out there who have sores all over thier soldiers. That has seriously gotta suck! My reccomended solution. Get a girlfriend. Or download porn! Lol.

Lets face it; porn gets old and it can be expensive. Porn on the internet all too often has viruses or ad ware. (Don't ask how I know... its my brother I sware!) And girl/boy friends can be just as expensive if not more so than prostitutes. Plus you have to listen to them. Course you could troll college keggers, go clubing, bar hoping, browse locals on myspace and proposition every attractive prospect until one agrees. Then again the std factor is still very real.

Personally I'll bang just about anything with two tits and a hole - so long as they can provide information prooving they've been recently tested for stds. And I get tested myself once a month, even if I haven't had sex since the last test because sometimes stds take longer to manifest. The hospital actully does it for free. (Well not the hospital itself but a non-profit group that works through the hospital)

Ok so actually I'm very particular about who I sleep with but I do get tested regularly anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

the only reason its illegal outside of nevada within the united states is that sex in america is disrespectful of women ... the advertising and our entire social system is set up so that girls grow up to become sex toys, not empowered sexual beings. we have impotent men driving the system to make women who are also impotent in their sexual power ... perhaps one day we will embrace our sexual energy and power ... both men and women alike, and then perhaps rape and molestations will be a thing of the past.

So if I'd rather stick my wiener in a hooker rather than a blender does that make me an optimist?

Well they do say that optimists rule the world. Although I hear a few have played sushi wiener by sticking their schlongs in vacuum cleaners! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/banana.gif)

Damn I did not know that psycho nympho was a hooker! Well at least she did not charge me.........

Maybe public brothels would not be a bad idea if they tested their girls for stds. I would like for legislation to be passed that brothels can only be built adjacent to Catholic monasteries though. Perhaps this would ease the penalization of choir boys.

Lets face it; porn gets old and it can be expensive. Porn on the internet all too often has viruses or ad ware. (Don't ask how I know... its my brother I sware!) And girl/boy friends can be just as expensive if not more so than prostitutes. Plus you have to listen to them. Course you could troll college keggers, go clubing, bar hoping, browse locals on myspace and proposition every attractive prospect until one agrees. Then again the std factor is still very real.

I am a devote follower of the never pay for p^$$Y foundation. Let me share with you brother a gem of a program called Limewire Pro. I paid for this version and have since allowed countless people to download it from my re-install link. I like to think that I am getting my moneys worth. Anyone who does not want to pay for porn <Or music and movies.> Please download here.
https://sales.limewire.com/060905/N6krJejdr...H0pojZfFrlO01L/

Zi Dingir Sirsir Kanpa!

This post has been edited by Edunpanna: Dec 12 2006, 11:08 PM

Supposedly people can get legal sex in Montreal too. So if you're closer to there than Nevada it might be a better option.

Well they do say that optimists rule the world. Although I hear a few have played sushi wiener by sticking their schlongs in vacuum cleaners!

Sticking your dick in places where is doesn't belong can lead to payronies disease. That might not be the correct spelling but what is is where the penis gets sub-dermal damage and it collects plaque, like a sort ofl scaring and caused the penis to bend when errect. Then again maybe one just uses a shit load of vassline and larger nossle... but I wouldn't be that desperate to risk it.

Maybe public brothels would not be a bad idea if they tested their girls for stds. I would like for legislation to be passed that brothels can only be built adjacent to Catholic monasteries though. Perhaps this would ease the penalization of choir boys.

Now that is some funny shit! Go commit your "sin" then go to church and get purified... ya know I think we just found a lucrative way for the church to stay in business!

I am a devote follower of the never pay for p^$$Y foundation. Let me share with you brother a gem of a program called Limewire Pro. I paid for this version and have since allowed countless people to download it from my re-install link. I like to think that I am getting my moneys worth. Anyone who does not want to pay for porn <Or music and movies.> Please download here.

When I actually get my own computer I'll keep this in mind.

Greetings Debators!
What about a co-op brothel, run by the whores themselves? Everyone, male or female, at the desk or on the bed would be fuckable. All Bi, all with condoms incorporated into the sex act so no sensation is lost, lube on tap in every bedroom, a giant net-hung from the ceiling at the end of each bed-full of sex toys, and connecting rooms that-for a small fee- can combine two rooms into an orgy.
The sex toys and lube would be bought with the earnings of the whores, and an "orgy night" once every two weeks.
Are any of these good ideas? They'd allow each whore to make a very steady income.

sounds profitable to me. One problem is that marketing brothels can be tricky. For example in Nevada some counties don't allow advertisement at all. A couple limmit it to only within the county itself. Then brothels have this whole sorta icky connotation and so making them seem sleezier than they already do (sleezy in the eye of the beholder) doesn't draw a strong clientel.

If you could some how make some sort of sex club you could make people pay a membership fee (probably as a monthly or yearly rate), as well as hand pick who gets to join and set other regulations too. This kind of club wouldn't count as prostitution because members are not paying for sex they're paying for membership into a social club - one that happens to be where people can get together and have consentual sex on the premise of the property.

damn I think I just found another business venture to try.

Even before I left my former religion I have long felt that sex work should be legal. It's my body, so it should be my choice. Anyone who doesn't like it doesn't have to participate (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sounds like a good Idea, but there should be institutionalized rules as to who qualifies to be a sex worker. Such criteria may include status of health, physical constitution, blood tests, and other things.

Ahh.....why not model a bit after some of the european systems? Doesn't germany still have a thriving brothel business?

Move to Nevada.
Prostitution is legal (in brothels) and is regulated closely as far as weekly medical exams, etc.

Move to Nevada.
Prostitution is legal (in brothels) and is regulated closely as far as weekly medical exams, etc.

Yeah, but don't states have their own folkways and customs concerning their histories with this kind of business? I mean, it may be a thriving business in nevada, but may be considered outright illegal in Massachusetts.

What I was hinting towards was a more generalized thing, but whatever. I'm just thinking too much again.

Well, adopting "Nevada rules" would make it safer for all involved, IMO.

Cool thing is, with legal prostitution and gambling, Nevada has extremely low property taxes and NO sales tax. So, economically, I think it would benefit everyone as well.

If one has moral objections, they need not partake, yet still enjoy the low taxes and such.

Sounds like a good Idea, but there should be institutionalized rules as to who qualifies to be a sex worker. Such criteria may include status of health, physical constitution, blood tests, and other things.

I have to disagree in part here. Doing this means we'd need to create more beuacracy in a nation we tax dollars are already mismanaged enough as it is. I do think brothels should be made to prove their workers are free of STDs and other certain communicable diseases. Then any allegations of transmitting STDs from or to prostitutes should be investigated by local authorities.

Move to Nevada.
Prostitution is legal (in brothels) and is regulated closely as far as weekly medical exams, etc.

Its also extemely expensive. I read that not only do the brothels have their "introductory prices", but the prostitutes themselves can raise the price depending on the client, what they want and how long they want it. I heard of men spending litterally 20 large in a single night.

Another problem with brothels is their cost effectiveness. If the main ideas in legitimising them are to control the spread of STDs, decrimminalizing prostitutes and taking them off the streets into a safer environment then they have to be affordable as well. And really no legislation could legally control this. A business is can charge whatever price they want. So if Joe Blow wants a hoe but only has a buck foty fo he's gonna go to the cheaper spot and risk getting caught anyways.

Naive View on Prostitution...

=]

I think women and men should be allowed to become prostitutes so yes legalize =] They own their own bodies, they can do whatever they want.

Despite the whole 'lots of money' & 'sex is good' so it must be a perfect job, I'm thinking about the culture of prostitution. It does become a means to make quick cash without having to actually know your own internal strengths. Just this outside focus won't allow you to figure out who you really are. It focuses on only the physical but so does modelling..It probably won't be so popular in a relationship either.

That and also child prostitution, sure it will be regulated regularly and such but if it becomes a socially acceptable then who's to say that child prostitution won't become more common. I mean it's quite a common fetish to want younger girls and boys and if prostitution turned into this huge industry, well it would definitely become corrupted and most likely children will be involved.

Plus I don't think instantly turn 18 makes you an adult. I might be okay with casual sex, but I still think sex is an intimate thing and can easily be confused with emotional ties. Who says an 18 yr old can deal with that? Wait a second, who says a 30 yr old can deal with that? Can an aspect of a healthy relationship really just be a money-making tool?

...I don't know.

Despite the whole 'lots of money' & 'sex is good' so it must be a perfect job, I'm thinking about the culture of prostitution. It does become a means to make quick cash without having to actually know your own internal strengths. Just this outside focus won't allow you to figure out who you really are. It focuses on only the physical but so does modelling..It probably won't be so popular in a relationship either.

I have do disagree with some of that... for one thing if prostitution were legalized, you'd see a much more professional attitude invade that culture. We'd see a throw back to victorian courtesan style prostitution, where being in that industry means something to you, and relies on your particular internal strengths. Not just anyone can be a successful prostitute in that model, just like not just anyone can be a good marketer. Sure, there will be people doing it who don't know themselves and aren't necessarily good at it, but they'll be the low-end, cost effective individuals, just like in any other profession. And, unless you've been a prostitute, it's hard to judge whether or not it allows you to figure out who your really are, isn't it? Let's not be too quick to judge the quality of a path we haven't ourselves walked down.

That and also child prostitution, sure it will be regulated regularly and such but if it becomes a socially acceptable then who's to say that child prostitution won't become more common. I mean it's quite a common fetish to want younger girls and boys and if prostitution turned into this huge industry, well it would definitely become corrupted and most likely children will be involved.

While it has nothing to do with prostitution, I'm reminded of the NAMBLA group, who, though they feel it is perfectly natural to love young boys, are not taken seriously because everyone except them agree that their aims are just ridiculous. I don't think that legalizing prostitution would make child prostitution any more common than underage porn models - which, by the way, is way more rare now that they've revamped all the red tape surrounding the pornography industry. If it were legalized, the places who were doing child prostitution would stick out more significantly than they do now, and it would be easier to stop those kinds of things.

Plus I don't think instantly turn 18 makes you an adult. I might be okay with casual sex, but I still think sex is an intimate thing and can easily be confused with emotional ties. Who says an 18 yr old can deal with that? Wait a second, who says a 30 yr old can deal with that? Can an aspect of a healthy relationship really just be a money-making tool?

If you can't handle letting criminals go free, don't become a criminal defense attorney. If you can't bear to kill animals for food, don't become a butcher. If you are terrified of bugs, don't become a bug-ologist (forget the technical name). Same goes for prostitution.

A lot of people might decide that it's an easy profession to make money at, that you don't have to go to school for it, so "I'll just default to prostitution since it's legal, that'll make the paycheck easy!" However, being an artist or a poet or a writer, or any of a thousand other degree-free professions, is the same way already, and not everyone is good at it, so not everyone will become popular doing it.

WHere I live, there are a lot of unlicensed massage-guys running around giving happy endings, you can throw a stone and bounce it off two of them. However, some are more popular than others, some of them eventually stop showing up in the places you'd find them - but isn't a massage with a happy ending something everyone wants? You'd think there would always be a clientele for it, right? Wrong, if you're not good at it, eventually you run out of clients, even in a city with 8 million people. Word gets around, cause there's always a circle where the word will travel, and in the end the 'professionals' who are better at it than you are start collecting all the clients. If you're not cut out for the work, you won't be able to support yourself doing it.

Ultimately, there's just a lot more to the prostitution job than most people think there is. Even were it legalized, you'd have to be either freelance - and rely on your own wits for marketing - or you'd work with an agency/brothel, etc., and then you'd have to meet standards. So, it's not as easy as just anyone who wants to do it doing it, or as simple as people who don't want to 'work at anything' falling back on prostitution. If it's a profession, and it's socially acceptable, then there will be exceptional professionals, people who take what seems straightforward enough for anyone to do, and make it into an artform. And that's what would distinguish one prostitute from another - quality, just like any other profession.

peace

This post has been edited by Vagrant Dreamer: Jul 4 2007, 07:30 PM

As i live in Pahrump, nevada
home of the brothels closest to vegas (sheris,cherry patch 1 n 2, mabels )
i feel an odd comfort knowing that at least this freeedom is available
and no they arent all like the HBO show and 100 bucks will do
but its really not an issue
as all total freedom is

I have do disagree with some of that... for one thing if prostitution were legalized, you'd see a much more professional attitude invade that culture. We'd see a throw back to victorian courtesan style prostitution, where being in that industry means something to you, and relies on your particular internal strengths. Not just anyone can be a successful prostitute in that model, just like not just anyone can be a good marketer. Sure, there will be people doing it who don't know themselves and aren't necessarily good at it, but they'll be the low-end, cost effective individuals, just like in any other profession. And, unless you've been a prostitute, it's hard to judge whether or not it allows you to figure out who your really are, isn't it? Let's not be too quick to judge the quality of a path we haven't ourselves walked down.

You have this huge assumption that just because it's legalized the whole world's attitude will change towards it. I sincerely doubt that prostitution would get any respect at all just because of the law. I am aware that prostitution takes a few more skills than just 'sex' to be successful. I have not been a prostitute but I have been offered money to have sex when I was quite young. I think the prospect of money at a young age is a huge thing and it really did confuse my own self-validation and identity. One of my best friends also was obsessed with becoming a stripper-I don't the idea of having sex for money is fuelled by ambition and a proffesional attitude. I think it's just being fuelled by insecurity.

I don't think that legalizing prostitution would make child prostitution any more common than underage porn models - which, by the way, is way more rare now that they've revamped all the red tape surrounding the pornography industry. If it were legalized, the places who were doing child prostitution would stick out more significantly than they do now, and it would be easier to stop those kinds of things.

I think the amount of children having sex for money currently is quite a few. I think as a child the ideal of having sex is an 'all grown up' trait and money at a young age is quite appeasing. If prostitution was legalized I doubt adults would show respect towards the industry but I do believe that children would think it's okay to do. I say this in regard to adolescents who are more likely to be influenced by the media and being 'sexy' is quite hot right now. Combine that with insecurity, bad body image and low self-esteem-I'm sure that more children and teenagers will go into the prostitution industry just to try to either be 'more grown up' or just to validate their self-worth which should not be validated using sex.

If you can't handle letting criminals go free, don't become a criminal defense attorney. If you can't bear to kill animals for food, don't become a butcher. If you are terrified of bugs, don't become a bug-ologist (forget the technical name). Same goes for prostitution.

Prostitution is not like any other job. It deals with sex-and sex might be seen casually by many but some just aren't ready. Those who are having sex right now aren't really asking themselves 'am I emotionally mature for this?'-they just go ahead and do it. I know that prostitution takes more skills than just having sex but at the same time-sex is still the core. I think if you can deal with having sex with heaps of people and still cling onto yourself, then fine. But I think many people can be good at sex, can look good and can still not be emotionally ready to have casual sex with numerous partners.

Quite frankly it seems as you've made prostitution into this art form and some one will be there to make sure everyone is completely able for this job. I just don't think that's the way it will work. I am for legalizing prostitution because people have to make their own decisions about their bodies. I just think that maybe there's more emotional issues to be dealt with before shoving prostitution into the mix.

...Maybe?

You have this huge assumption that just because it's legalized the whole world's attitude will change towards it. I sincerely doubt that prostitution would get any respect at all just because of the law. I am aware that prostitution takes a few more skills than just 'sex' to be successful. I have not been a prostitute but I have been offered money to have sex when I was quite young. I think the prospect of money at a young age is a huge thing and it really did confuse my own self-validation and identity. One of my best friends also was obsessed with becoming a stripper-I don't the idea of having sex for money is fuelled by ambition and a proffesional attitude. I think it's just being fuelled by insecurity.

That's not an assumption, that's an observation of - granted, at least in the US - the interaction between the legal and social entities. When Society hates something, it quickly becomes illegal - when the government feels something is immoral, unsavory, etc., they make it illegal, and social views follow, because we've been trained by our culture to believe that if it's illegal, it's morally wrong. When something is legal, it's more acceptable - now that's not true in all cases, no. However, retrospect shows that anything that is taboo and not illegal, becomes more socially acceptable over time. I'm not saying prostitution would be socially respected as a profession the day it was legalized, but over time, a few decades for instance, yes, history shows that if it's not demonized by the law, then it becomes socially acceptable over time. Take sodomy, for instance. There was a time you could go to jail for giving a BJ. Now, the sodomy laws were recently repealed (not so recent anymore, actually, I think, a few years ago) and suddenly, socially, oral and anal sex are acceptable forms of behavior for all couples, and even considered a healthy aspect of anyone's sex life. This is something that was morally reprehensible, you were a pariah in society if anyone found out you did that sort of thing - now you're old and outdated if you don't. Because that's how it goes, things just become more acceptable. Prostitution would be the same thing, not because it's intrinsically respectable, but because when when the media and government are not telling you it's bad, you can look at it objectively. Throughout history, there has always been prostitution - and some cultures have respected it, and some cultures haven't, but everyone's always had it, it's a part of human culture.

Also, it's fair to say that the lust for money in general fuels almost every profession. The individuals who pursue their profession out of sheer passion for it are in the extreme minority. Having sex for money is not necessarily always fueled by insecurity - the lust for money itself is fueled by insecurity of every form, from simply the fear of being poor, to the sense that you have to have things in order to be loved, to "having money = being attractive." It is a gross generalization to say that prostitution is fueled by insecurity - and I'm not just theorizing, I am personally acquainted with many escorts, male and female, and while one or two of them seem to be involved in that business because of the validation it gives them, the rest are simply good at what they do and enjoy the fun in it, as well as the money, like anyone else in a high paid profession. What I'm getting at here is that what you're talking about sounds word-for-word like what we've all been told by our governments who've demonized prostitution, and the media they use to do it. It doesn't sound to me like you've got any first hand experience with the culture itself.

I think the amount of children having sex for money currently is quite a few. I think as a child the ideal of having sex is an 'all grown up' trait and money at a young age is quite appeasing. If prostitution was legalized I doubt adults would show respect towards the industry but I do believe that children would think it's okay to do. I say this in regard to adolescents who are more likely to be influenced by the media and being 'sexy' is quite hot right now. Combine that with insecurity, bad body image and low self-esteem-I'm sure that more children and teenagers will go into the prostitution industry just to try to either be 'more grown up' or just to validate their self-worth which should not be validated using sex.

Worldwide, yes. So far we've been talking more like the US, but I'll concede that child prostitution is a major problem across the globe. However, those children aren't prostitutes, typically, because they choose to be, they are sometimes slaves, sometimes in a country where child prostitution is considered okay, etc. - but that's a different issue all together. In our country here, we would draw a very clear legal line between who can be a prostitute and who can't. We go after and bury anyone involved in that sort of business. Also, plenty of young men and women become models to validate themselves the same way. They go to the gym and have sex with many partners for the same reason. Allowing prostitution is not going to impact that social dynamic almost at all, it's a dynamic that already exists independent of that profession. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't allow or cause children under 18 years of age to become prostitutes - they would be informed that you can't make money that way, just like you can't be a pornography model, or a stripper, etc. We don't have child strippers, we don't have child pornography professionals - so what makes you think there would be a rash of child prostitutes? It's a sort of wild assertion that doesn't seem to be based on patterns already in place - legalizing prostitution would slightly alter or add to those patterns, not break them all together. Yes, children would think prostitution is okay, but I highly doubt that would make them any more likely to be a prostitute than to be a porn model or a stripper, which we already think is okay. It's something you're either going to do, or you're not going to do. Same goes for stripping and porno that goes for prostitution - you're either doing it for the right reasons, or you're not. Like any other profession.

Prostitution is not like any other job. It deals with sex-and sex might be seen casually by many but some just aren't ready. Those who are having sex right now aren't really asking themselves 'am I emotionally mature for this?'-they just go ahead and do it. I know that prostitution takes more skills than just having sex but at the same time-sex is still the core. I think if you can deal with having sex with heaps of people and still cling onto yourself, then fine. But I think many people can be good at sex, can look good and can still not be emotionally ready to have casual sex with numerous partners.

See, what I see here is that you're putting the emotional involvement of sex up on a pedestal like a lot of other people do. What makes the emotional involvement of sex more important or special than the emotional involvement with anything else? What you're talking about, is the attachement issue, not the issue of the emotion itself. The need for the emotional energy to last, to create something that will endure. That's not an issue of maturity, it's an issue of evolution. It's a matter of consciousness, and it's on it's way out. Like so many other people, you are looking at sex as a matter of romantic love. A mature view of sex is one centered on biology and higher consciousness - it is an exchange of energy, and it's as natural and viable a center of professional work as massage is. What we see with massage these days is often the reverse - the action itself with no emotional investment, no subtle connection, just a mechanical act. It's not because sex or massage is inherently an emotional act, it's because we've been taught to view that emotional connection the wrong way. We've been taught it should be exclusive, when really it should be with everyone, and it should be fleeting, and it should be in the moment, rather than the past or future. So, yes, there is an element of emotional maturity involved, but not the one you think. And the solution to that emotional issue will come along with the legalization of prostitution - over time it becomes acceptable, and then it assumes a role in society, and then people change their views on sex and emotion. You're looking at this issue from the point of view of right here-and-now, when it's not an issue that can be mapped out by just looking forward one day. You have to consider it's possible place in society, the effect it can have if handled properly, and look out over decades. You have to look at the positive and negative, and then understand how to catalyze the positive to transmute the negative aspects. Legalizing prostitution changes the rules of the trade, it's no longer the same thing it is right now, it's something entirely different, and you're not taking that into account. You're looking at prostitution legalized as though it were the same entity as prostitution illegal and demonized - they've very different things from a social and cultural point of view.

Quite frankly it seems as you've made prostitution into this art form and some one will be there to make sure everyone is completely able for this job. I just don't think that's the way it will work. I am for legalizing prostitution because people have to make their own decisions about their bodies. I just think that maybe there's more emotional issues to be dealt with before shoving prostitution into the mix.

...Maybe?

There's a sudden change to be expected and planned for in any such massive change. But, you can't make assumptions like the one's you're making, about individual and group psychology towards the matter. It begins with the most fundamental change - how society views that which is legal, versus that which illegal, and that is a very, very big difference. And yes, prostitution can be an artform, just like in every other culture across the globe where it has been developed that way at some point in their history. The laws surrounding it can steer it in that direction. It can develop it's own culture - think of venetian courtesans, japanese geisha, the chinese quivalent that I can't remember the name of at the moment; the prostitutes in the middle east and india in their golden years. And with the right laws, again, yes, there could be someone to make sure everyone is completely able for this job. There are jobs already that require psyche exams, physicals, etc. - why should prostitution not require those sorts of things?

What we're talking about here is not just legalizing the profession, but regulating it as well, you realize.

peace

I have to go shopping for the third time this week and hope to buy cute new shoes for my new dress-I don't really have any comebacks to your post, and I'm starting to think to just leave it but I'll try to pick through it anyway. This is going to be tiring and quite painful =]

That's not an assumption, that's an observation of - granted, at least in the US - the interaction between the legal and social entities. When Society hates something, it quickly becomes illegal - when the government feels something is immoral, unsavory, etc., they make it illegal, and social views follow, because we've been trained by our culture to believe that if it's illegal, it's morally wrong. When something is legal, it's more acceptable - now that's not true in all cases, no. However, retrospect shows that anything that is taboo and not illegal, becomes more socially acceptable over time. I'm not saying prostitution would be socially respected as a profession the day it was legalized, but over time, a few decades for instance, yes, history shows that if it's not demonized by the law, then it becomes socially acceptable over time.

I do not believe that law is a reflection on what society thinks. For example-in my own country we prize ourselves on our multiculturalism yet the majority of us are racist, we create an illusion of acceptance. I think the word 'demonized' is quite passionate, this law might reflect what the majority of the population want at this current point of time, and of course America is a democracy and there are flaws within that system but in reality law is based on what the people want, and people don't want prostitution legalized.

Also, it's fair to say that the lust for money in general fuels almost every profession. The individuals who pursue their profession out of sheer passion for it are in the extreme minority. Having sex for money is not necessarily always fueled by insecurity - the lust for money itself is fueled by insecurity of every form, from simply the fear of being poor, to the sense that you have to have things in order to be loved, to "having money = being attractive." It is a gross generalization to say that prostitution is fueled by insecurity - and I'm not just theorizing, I am personally acquainted with many escorts, male and female, and while one or two of them seem to be involved in that business because of the validation it gives them, the rest are simply good at what they do and enjoy the fun in it, as well as the money, like anyone else in a high paid profession. What I'm getting at here is that what you're talking about sounds word-for-word like what we've all been told by our governments who've demonized prostitution, and the media they use to do it. It doesn't sound to me like you've got any first hand experience with the culture itself.

You can't just make an assumption that I don't know about the culture, just because I am not personally a prostitute or never have been-I have had my own experiences which I'd prefer not to delve into extensively. Have you maybe considered that we have just had different views and experiences within the culture of prostitution? You seem to know capable adults who are not negatively influenced. I do not. This might bias my view but I remain firm in saying that prostitution can be fuelled by insecurity despite your personal examples. I live in Australia and although America and Australia are quite similar-our government has not 'demonized' prostitution, actually I think it may be legal. Oh it is legal! =]
Anyway that's probably going to cause a huge dint in my argument.

Allowing prostitution is not going to impact that social dynamic almost at all, it's a dynamic that already exists independent of that profession. Legalizing prostitution wouldn't allow or cause children under 18 years of age to become prostitutes - they would be informed that you can't make money that way, just like you can't be a pornography model, or a stripper, etc. We don't have child strippers, we don't have child pornography professionals - so what makes you think there would be a rash of child prostitutes? It's a sort of wild assertion that doesn't seem to be based on patterns already in place - legalizing prostitution would slightly alter or add to those patterns, not break them all together. Yes, children would think prostitution is okay, but I highly doubt that would make them any more likely to be a prostitute than to be a porn model or a stripper, which we already think is okay. It's something you're either going to do, or you're not going to do. Same goes for stripping and porno that goes for prostitution - you're either doing it for the right reasons, or you're not. Like any other profession.

I disagree, I think prostitution is definitely impacts that social dynamic.
"We don't have child strippers, we don't have child pornography professionals" and you have made the assumption that there are not any child prostitutes right now.
That's completely wrong-there are more child prostitutes in Australia than the general public knows or ever will know about, so no it not a wild assertion because I am aware of what's happening now (it's happening in my own country) and I do believe that legalized prostitution will affect that. And quite frankly not everyone has actually adjusted to strippers and porno models & I know this is a male and female argument and I do accept the fact there are males in the industry but I feel like females are degraded far more by society for being within this industry. You don't get called a 'whore' in every profession. (Well you might, since it's used as a common insult)...

See, what I see here is that you're putting the emotional involvement of sex up on a pedestal like a lot of other people do. What makes the emotional involvement of sex more important or special than the emotional involvement with anything else? What you're talking about, is the attachement issue, not the issue of the emotion itself. The need for the emotional energy to last, to create something that will endure. That's not an issue of maturity, it's an issue of evolution. It's a matter of consciousness, and it's on it's way out. Like so many other people, you are looking at sex as a matter of romantic love. A mature view of sex is one centered on biology and higher consciousness - it is an exchange of energy, and it's as natural and viable a center of professional work as massage is. What we see with massage these days is often the reverse - the action itself with no emotional investment, no subtle connection, just a mechanical act. It's not because sex or massage is inherently an emotional act, it's because we've been taught to view that emotional connection the wrong way. We've been taught it should be exclusive, when really it should be with everyone, and it should be fleeting, and it should be in the moment, rather than the past or future. So, yes, there is an element of emotional maturity involved, but not the one you think. And the solution to that emotional issue will come along with the legalization of prostitution - over time it becomes acceptable, and then it assumes a role in society, and then people change their views on sex and emotion. You're looking at this issue from the point of view of right here-and-now, when it's not an issue that can be mapped out by just looking forward one day. You have to consider it's possible place in society, the effect it can have if handled properly, and look out over decades. You have to look at the positive and negative, and then understand how to catalyze the positive to transmute the negative aspects. Legalizing prostitution changes the rules of the trade, it's no longer the same thing it is right now, it's something entirely different, and you're not taking that into account. You're looking at prostitution legalized as though it were the same entity as prostitution illegal and demonized - they've very different things from a social and cultural point of view.

Yes I believe sex is emotional. More emotional than taking pizza orders or running a marketing campaign or building a house.
I don't think it's up to you to say that looking at sex as 'romantic love' is not mature, everyone looks at sex differently and differences does not automatically make one view less mature than another. You can look at sex as just an exchange of energy or just a physical act, but I don't think that's a more mature viewpoint, just different. Just because sex means that to you, doesn't mean that other people should look at sex like that too and it certainly doesn't make it the right path to create an ideal future. I'm quite fine seeing sex as with just one partner even if it's a social norm and I'd prefer not having to be forced into thinking that the 'new and improved' way (which yes is the ancient way) is not reserved for one person. That being said, I'm fine with other people having various partners.

There's a sudden change to be expected and planned for in any such massive change. But, you can't make assumptions like the one's you're making, about individual and group psychology towards the matter. It begins with the most fundamental change - how society views that which is legal, versus that which illegal, and that is a very, very big difference. And yes, prostitution can be an artform, just like in every other culture across the globe where it has been developed that way at some point in their history. The laws surrounding it can steer it in that direction. It can develop it's own culture - think of venetian courtesans, japanese geisha, the chinese quivalent that I can't remember the name of at the moment; the prostitutes in the middle east and india in their golden years. And with the right laws, again, yes, there could be someone to make sure everyone is completely able for this job. There are jobs already that require psyche exams, physicals, etc. - why should prostitution not require those sorts of things?

Your also making assumptions about how everyone's way of thinking towards sex will be improved but there is no 'right' viewpoint to sex. Japanese Geisha are a symbol of beauty and sensuality but they are not prostitutes...a true geisha is an artisan. Some girls were put into prostitution but that's not what Geisha are.

I do agree that regulation should require pysche exams and physicals etc. I was actually about to type that at the end of my last post, but I didn't...
I think if prostitution should require those sorts of things.


Forgive my grammatical errors.









This post has been edited by Sarena: Jul 5 2007, 01:42 AM

I say this in regard to adolescents who are more likely to be influenced by the media and being 'sexy' is quite hot right now.

I think this has a far greater impact on minors engaging in prostitution than legalizing prostitution might have. We really can't know how legalizing prostitution would affect minors. Many minors who have sex do so because they are mentally valnerable because of our hyper sex culture. Peer pressure doesn't help either. I remember back in highschool sex was a game. The object was simple; if you're a girl - bang as many "hot jocks" as you could. If you were a dude get with as many girls as possible. The prize? "popularity". I mean these girls slept around and they did it for free and really for no reason other than they were vain and thought it was fun. Not much more different than drugs really. See for as many minors who have sex for money there are many many more who do it for nothing. However, like drugs, as long as sex is around minors will be doing it and again like drugs sometimes this will involve adults who should know better.

The purpose for legalizing prostitution is to attempt to solve the problems that it causes being illegal. Because prostitution is illegal in most everywhere in the states its become an unregulated underground market. This can involve pimping, gangs, drugs, violence, the mentally unstable, the spread of stds and swelling numbers of crimminal cases bogging down our justice system - many of which involve multiple charges covering several different crimes. Because of the draw backs of keeping prostitution illegal I cannot imagine how the emotionallity of sex could possibly have any weight on the legalization of prostitution. This is an example of a moral issue and I think its legal status demonstrates the serious flaw of American society that creates legislation over such moral issues.

Really it doesn't matter how anybody feels about prostitution as far as it being right or wrong, for whatever reason. It doesn't matter because no matter what you or I think there will always be a minority who believes differently. Of course by this logic we cannot legitimately legislate any laws at all. The catch here is to make laws that are logical, reasonable and turely in the interest of the safety of the public. Given the crime that surrounds prostitution and the fact that any more its just a misdemeanor offense I think the proof that keeping it illegal really hasn't provented it from happening is in plain sight. The legislation has utterly failed to end prostitution. And that tells me that it doesn't matter what anybody thinks or what moral high ground one wants to take - prostitution is not known as the oldest profession for nothing and it will continue to be around for as long as people continue to have sex.

Of course we cannot just open the flood gates and say prostitutition should be unrestricted and totally legal. That would only fuel the problems that already co-exist - the drugs, gangs, violence and other crime. But if we legalize prostitution and control it we can prevent it being a part of those other crimes. This would help slow the spread of stds, ensure the safety of the prostitutes and their clientel. It would also ideally lower the case load on the justice system to enable them to work on more important matters - such as child exploitation. It would generate taxes for local governments and the feds. But more over it would be a comprimise between the majority who feel prostitution should be illegal and those who think it shouldn't. Minority rights would be respected. If we legalize prostitution under the premise of restricting it and controlling it the benefits would most likey out wiegh the negative moral conotations.

This is not to say this is some perfect plan. New problems will arise. And legalization would need to be managed properly and effectively. I think if we force prostitution to work through brothels or some kind of licensing agency we would actually be preventing, or at least reducing things like child expliotation, drug and gang involvement with sex crimes. Of course as with all comprimising laws there will still be those who do not play ball and break the law living on their own terms anyways. But with cooperation from the public and effective enforcement I think we can reach towards more progressive goals that would lower the over all crime rate in America.

Sex carries as much weight as YOU as an INDIVIDUAL put on it. Sex is just an act. Penis in vagina. That's it. The act of sexual intercourse alone carries absolutely no weight at all, however, the emotional attachments each of us put into it makes it carry weight, and a controlled mind can easily spot the difference. Look at objectively, without bias or attatchement, and you will see something similar to walking, breathing, etc. BUT, all that can change with perspective. Now, instead, look at it as a chance to unify yourself with a person you love, to feel their warmth, to share yourself with another, to be within your mate or your mate within you. Now... it has become romance.

Notice I said that it has become romance. A strong mind can spot the difference. We are all into magick so this shouldn't be too difficult see and draw parallels. One of the first things you learn in magick is that there isn't one single way to do something, and that a dogmatic approach to it is both false and can lead to failure. Magick is what you fashion it into; same goes with sex.

Oh and prostitution isn't the world's oldest profession.

1st -- Farming
2nd -- Killing
3rd -- Prostitution

1st -- Farming
2nd -- Killing
3rd -- Prostitution

Domestication probably came before actual "prostitution". But imagine if you were a cromagnon man with a daughter and the only way you could feed your clan was to barter with the local neanderthals by letting them have sex with your daughter for food - essentially pimping out your own daughter. Just one random senario. Crude sure. But I'd bet there're worse ones possible. People do desprate things in desperate situations.